Line Combos: Pens 2022-2023 Training Camp thread: Its happenings

[Deport Ogie]

I mean that’s been an issue from day one though. The biggest issue I see is the entry.

Fair cop. The entry infuriates me and again it sort of lends toward a lack of creativity. Stop ****ing drop passing it.

I've said it at least 20 times on this board but the biggest thing I miss about Gonchar running the PP is his ability to seamlessly change the perspective of the attack. PK loads left? Sarge just backslides across the blue line taking 2 defenders with him until a lane inevitably opens for a pass or a shot.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think the main issue with their powerplay is that they don't really have a true PPQB or dynamic powerplay player on their unit anymore. Malkin's the closest guy to that, but I don't think he's as good of a powerplay player as guys like Kessel and Gonchar were.

I don't think Rust and Guentzel are good powerplay players, and they're replacing 2 guys who were elite powerplay players. It shouldn't be a surprise that the unit went from top of the league to mediocre with those swaps.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I think the main issue with their powerplay is that they don't really have a true PPQB or dynamic powerplay player on their unit anymore. Malkin's the closest guy to that, but I don't think he's as good of a powerplay player as guys like Kessel and Gonchar were.

I don't think Rust and Guentzel are good powerplay players, and they're replacing 2 guys who were elite powerplay players. It shouldn't be a surprise that the unit went from top of the league to mediocre with those swaps.

Rust is pretty good and he's right-handed.

Guentzel is downright bad on the PP though. I know he scores goals but he hurts the unit out there.
Maybe we give Zuck a redemption arc in his place. We also need a willing chaser when we dump/chase.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Rust is pretty good and he's right-handed.

Guentzel is downright bad on the PP though. I know he scores goals but he hurts the unit out there.
Maybe we give Zuck a redemption arc in his place. We also need a willing chaser when we dump/chase.

I don't think Rust is a good powerplay player. Rust seems like a guy that produces because he's on the powerplay but doesn't help it in any material way.

 

[ronduguayshair]

I think the main issue with their powerplay is that they don't really have a true PPQB or dynamic powerplay player on their unit anymore. Malkin's the closest guy to that, but I don't think he's as good of a powerplay player as guys like Kessel and Gonchar were.

I don't think Rust and Guentzel are good powerplay players, and they're replacing 2 guys who were elite powerplay players. It shouldn't be a surprise that the unit went from top of the league to mediocre with those swaps.

This is a really good post. The problem is the lack of a PPQB.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don't think Rust is a good powerplay player. Rust seems like a guy that produces because he's on the powerplay but doesn't help it in any material way.

Fair enough. I suppose the main contribution is being right-handed. I don't love Rakell out there either.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Imo Rust and even Guentzel aren’t well suited to PP work. Would much prefer Rakell over Rust and maybe even Zucker or Carter over Guentzel.

You could also use Smith at the point and Letang as the RH shot. Dump Rust.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

That's a really good point. I've read alot of excuses and blame here for the penalty kill tailing off late in the season. Seems most of the chronic posters here simply say its because the competition got better. That's true but it also coincides with bringing in offensive talent to boost Line #2's lack of production. But they were glad they guys who didn't score were traded.

I still see posters thinking we need to bring in an elite winger for line 2. Or frothing at the mouth to put "Big Z' in the lineup when he doesn't kill penalties. Or debating McGinn's offensive abilities. Its crazy town. For the millionth time....NHL is reality not a video game.

Ok, let's just ignore the fact that Domingue was 2nd last of all goalies in the playoffs in goals saved above expected. That didn't impact a series that got decided by one goal at all.

Z could probably kill penalties based on his defensive metrics, if you ever stopped to open a stat page instead of talking about the posters every time you come here. Have you ever considered that he could be tested in training camp and the early months of the season and learn how to do it?

 

[Gurglesons]

Imo Rust and even Guentzel aren’t well suited to PP work. Would much prefer Rakell over Rust and maybe even Zucker or Carter over Guentzel.

You could also use Smith at the point and Letang as the RH shot. Dump Rust.

Yeah that’s what I see. Zucker and Rakell over Jake and Rust. Even Carter over Rust IMO.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Also let’s not forget that Gonch was an elite PPQB.

 

[Pens1566]

Imo Rust and even Guentzel aren’t well suited to PP work. Would much prefer Rakell over Rust and maybe even Zucker or Carter over Guentzel.

You could also use Smith at the point and Letang as the RH shot. Dump Rust.

Yeah, RR is more creative by far.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Yeah that’s what I see. Zucker and Rakell over Jake and Rust. Even Carter over Rust IMO.

I would certainly try Rakell on the left wall, considering he's a good, patient playmaker with a hard shot and is more willing to shoot than Rust. This makes us less predictable.
Like give him at least 10-15 games before scrapping it.

For me Jake just doesn't get the puck enough on the PP to be impactful. When he does he makes really dangerous short range passes. The lion's share of our PP time is fetching the puck, zone entries, and perimeter passing between Letang, Malkin, Crosby.

But yeah, I'm not opposed to trying Zucker there if PP1 continues to be dogshit. May as well.

 

[ronduguayshair]

Ok, let's just ignore the fact that Domingue was 2nd last of all goalies in the playoffs in goals saved above expected. That didn't impact a series that got decided by one goal at all.

Z could probably kill penalties based on his defensive metrics, if you ever stopped to open a stat page instead of talking about the posters every time you come here. Have you ever considered that he could be tested in training camp and the early months of the season and learn how to do it?

Is he doing it in the minors? If not then why in the pros?

Let's start there. Instead of using "probably" analysis.

Ok, let's just ignore the fact that Domingue was 2nd last of all goalies in the playoffs in goals saved above expected. That didn't impact a series that got decided by one goal at all.

Z could probably kill penalties based on his defensive metrics, if you ever stopped to open a stat page instead of talking about the posters every time you come here. Have you ever considered that he could be tested in training camp and the early months of the season and learn how to do it?

Domingue had nothing to do with the PK fall from grace the second half of the regular season.


We move the variables so that our solution/opinion is correct. Thoughtful. Real Thoughtful.

A good criticism would be sullivan's system tires out players as teh season moves along.

 

[SEALBound]

I think people here super overrate how good of a PKer Kapanen was in Toronto, but it makes a ton of sense to use him on the PK at this point. He's not getting any PP minutes due to the acquisition of Rakell, so you should be giving him some sort of PK minutes to eat to help redistribute the minutes. It's something Sullivan should be focusing on doing more.

I think your main PKers this year will be Blueger, McGinn, Carter, Kapanen and Zohorna/Archibald/other 12th F, with Rust sprinkled in out of necessity. I kinda wish they wouldn't be putting such heavy minutes on Carter, but they don't really have the PKing centers to be able to not use him on the PK.

If they are looking at him being a 3RW behind Rust and Rakell, they should 100% be using him on the PK. This is speaking more towards the Sullivan comment of "I have to be a better coach with him". They need to be putting him in a position to succeed while also giving him openings to advance his game and the impact he's having. Since he got here it's been "be an elite top 6 RW or else! Oh, you are struggling? Put him in the hole. A month. Half rations. That'll fix him".

I seriously don’t understand why our Powerplay has gotten so bad.

Bunch of former elite PP guys standing around hoping their pure skill and a vague structure and strategy will just manifest a goal.

I love these guys. I love this team. But the PP issue is an ego problem.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Is he doing it in the minors? If not then why in the pros?

Let's start there. Instead of using "probably" analysis.

Yeah because players have never been asked to take on new special teams roles at the NHL level before.
PK'ing is a mystical art form that if not learned during developmental years is lost forever.

 

[LosingStreak06]

Re: Caggiula vs Archibald, I don’t think there will be a huge difference in terms of their production given bottom six ice time, and since we have a mass of tweeners to shuffle into the top lines in case of injuries I don’t think we will ever see a need for either of them in a top six role, but seeing as one of them is going to need to be sent down, I have a suspicion that Caggiula would be more useful in the AHL in terms of being a line mate who can help the younger guys develop. I don’t feel super strongly about it either way, but if I had to make the call that’s probably what I would opt to do.

 

[vodeni]

1. I wish we had someone better than Tanger to QB that PP1 but we don't. We are in mercy of him making right passes (low percentage), his shot is not much of a threat from the blue line, and I don't trust him in his role on entry. However we dion't have anyone even remotely as good to man that position (High hopes that Smith could develop)
2. Someone mentioned big egos. or in other words they do not do on PP what used to make them succesful (Sid and Geno)
3. Lack of general hustle. We are losing most of the wall battles or half and half pucks even with extra players. Thats on coach, if you don't hustle you seat even if you are Evgeni Malkin. Potential solution, Jake out Zucker in
4. Entries: Under no circumstances should rust or Jake have puck until the play is set up in the offensive zone. They are awful at that. The best entry guy since Kessel left is still Geno. Sid can do it, Tanger is iffy.
5. Kessel was so good in making that step forward to keep the defensive structure colapse and ope more space and lanes for Tanger passing. One of the problem with Tanger is that most of the other teams can press us high since there is no push from us. Instead our idea of moving PP is skating and exchanging spots all while passing on perimeter.
6. Lack of net presence, again coaching. He feels like he has to put Jake in, he is good at tipping but not on teh PP. No one is scared of Jake screening. Put Carter/Zucker there.

I am afraid taht no amount of practicing will help since he is playing the same players and they are doing same thing over and over again. Not sure about Rakell, I don't see him being dangerous on taht left wall. If he could press the defense at least than put him there with the caviat that he must fight for lose pucks. Than put Zucker or Carter in front.

 

[ronduguayshair]

If they are looking at him being a 3RW behind Rust and Rakell, they should 100% be using him on the PK. This is speaking more towards the Sullivan comment of "I have to be a better coach with him". They need to be putting him in a position to succeed while also giving him openings to advance his game and the impact he's having. Since he got here it's been "be an elite top 6 RW or else! Oh, you are struggling? Put him in the hole. A month. Half rations. That'll fix him".

Bunch of former elite PP guys standing around hoping their pure skill and a vague structure and strategy will just manifest a goal.

I love these guys. I love this team. But the PP issue is an ego problem.

Good post

 

[Peat]

I'll just point out that Geno was on ice for a higher goal rate on the PP than McDavid, and most of the PPs of both Tampa and Colorado, and that the idea that PP1 just universally consistently sucks right now is counter to the facts. It's disturbingly boom and bust and we got a bust at the wrong moment, but it's not like it never works at all.

 

[ronduguayshair]

Yeah because players have never been asked to take on new special teams roles at the NHL level before.
PK'ing is a mystical art form that if not learned during developmental years is lost forever.

^ Guy wants to develop players at the NHL level. Doesn't "get it".

 

[Gurglesons]

Why do people think the powerplay is ego based? The issue is honestly lack of ego. Crosby, Letang and Malkin are too polite. It's honestly why Letang and Malkin resigned here undervalue.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

^ Guy wants to develop players at the NHL level. Doesn't "get it".

A lot of the defensive skills used on the PK he has already developed. You're the one who doesn't get it.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'll just point out that Geno was on ice for a higher goal rate on the PP than McDavid, and most of the PPs of both Tampa and Colorado, and that the idea that PP1 just universally consistently sucks right now is counter to the facts. It's disturbingly boom and bust and we got a bust at the wrong moment, but it's not like it never works at all.

Oh it's just a problem RIGHT NOW. When it's terrific or at least satisfactory suddenly the big emergency will be ES scoring. Goalposts on wheels.

Why do people think the powerplay is ego based? The issue is honestly lack of ego. Crosby, Letang and Malkin are too polite. It's honestly why Letang and Malkin resigned here undervalue.

I think you know why.

 

[Gurglesons]

Oh it's just a problem RIGHT NOW. When it's terrific or at least satisfactory suddenly the big emergency will be ES scoring. Goalposts on wheels.



I think you know why.

Malkin is black?

 

[Peat]

Oh it's just a problem RIGHT NOW. When it's terrific or at least satisfactory suddenly the big emergency will be ES scoring. Goalposts on wheels.

Tbf there's a lot of different goals to get anywhere in this league. But yes, it does seem like there's always got to be something.