Line Combos: Pens 2022-2023 Training Camp thread: Its happenings

[Pancakes]

Hextall revamped the medical staff this off season but what he really needed to do was lift whatever curse it is that continues to plague us with injuries

 

[Gurglesons]

Hextall revamped the medical staff this off season but what he really needed to do was lift whatever curse it is that continues to plague us with injuries

it’s happening across the league tbh.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Having both Smith and POJ on the NHL roster wasn't a scenario I thought was likely. This given that it seems like GMRH would like to minimize the amount of players to send through waivers.

That's because it's understandably not likely.

If the Penguins want to get under the cap without making a trade, players will have to go through waivers.

Guentzel-Crosby-Rakell
Zucker-Malkin-Rust
Heinen-Carter-Kapanen
McGinn-Blueger-Archibald
Zohorna-Poehling

Dumoulin-Letang
Pettersson-Petry
Smith-Rutta
POJ-Ruhwedel-Friedman

Jarry
DeSmith

That's the current mix of players skating together (Poulin is up only because of the injuries and DOC is skating with the AHL guys).

That's 25 players and $2,305,175 over the cap.

Waiving Friedman only gets you down to $1,530,175 in cap space and 24 players.

Since there is no one player who can be waived to clear cap space and keep 23 players, you have to demote or waive two players.

To keep POJ and Smith and run with eight defensemen in this scenario, they would have to waive both Zohorna and Archibald (assuming they don't want to waive newly acquired Poehling).

But then they only have 12 forwards.

A more reasonable approach would be to keep 13 forwards and 7 defensemen, but that means you have to either waive a 23-year-old former first round pick in POJ, a rock steady bottom pairing defenseman in Ruhwedel, or demote Smith.

The only way to responsibly keep POJ and Smith up is to make a trade.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's because it's understandably not likely.

If the Penguins want to get under the cap without making a trade, players will have to go through waivers.

Guentzel-Crosby-Rakell
Zucker-Malkin-Rust
Heinen-Carter-Kapanen
McGinn-Blueger-Archibald
Zohorna-Poehling

Dumoulin-Letang
Pettersson-Petry
Smith-Rutta
POJ-Ruhwedel-Friedman

Jarry
DeSmith

That's the current mix of players skating together (Poulin is up only because of the injuries and DOC is skating with the AHL guys).

That's 25 players and $2,305,175 over the cap.

Waiving Friedman only gets you down to $1,530,175 in cap space and 24 players.

Since there is no one player who can be waived to clear cap space and keep 23 players, you have to demote or waive two players.

To keep POJ and Smith and run with eight defensemen in this scenario, they would have to waive both Zohorna and Archibald (assuming they don't want to waive newly acquired Poehling).

But then they only have 12 forwards.

A more reasonable approach would be to keep 13 forwards and 7 defensemen, but that means you have to either waive a 23-year-old former first round pick in POJ, a rock steady bottom pairing defenseman in Ruhwedel, or demote Smith.

The only way to responsibly keep POJ and Smith up is to make a trade.

Or have Teddy or Carter on LITR.

 

[Peat]

it’s happening across the league tbh.

Yeah. Finding out we had a below median level of injuries last year shocked the hell out of me. Maybe above average in terms of impact, but to think we can expect more injuries next year is yeesh.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Hextall revamped the medical staff this off season but what he really needed to do was lift whatever curse it is that continues to plague us with injuries

Preseason always has a bunch of day to day injuries. Happens when players start ramping up training and getting into games. Being in "game shape" is a very real thing.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Or have Teddy or Carter on LITR.

While true, it only kicks the can down the road. Upon their activation, someone needs to go down. As has been mentioned by multiple people, including you, it's more likely a player gets through waivers unclaimed if it is done strategically during camp - when there are dozens, if not hundreds, of players on waivers - than it is after all of the moves have been made.

If POJ is waived October 30 after Blueger comes off LTIR, I guarantee you gets picked up. Which means they either lose a 23-year-old former first round pick for nothing, or they're forced to make a trade at a reduced value.

 

[Empoleon8771]

While true, it only kicks the can down the road. Upon their activation, someone needs to go down. As has been mentioned by multiple people, including you, it's more likely a player gets through waivers unclaimed if it is done strategically during camp - when there are dozens, if not hundreds, of players on waivers - than it is after all of the moves have been made.

If POJ is waived October 30 after Blueger comes off LTIR, I guarantee you gets picked up. Which means they either lose a 23-year-old former first round pick for nothing, or they're forced to make a trade at a reduced value.

The flaw in your thinking is assuming that this team won't be dealing with any more injuries.

 

[dogthateats]

Kind of interesting to see the caliber of players

 

[DesertedPenguin]

The flaw in your thinking is assuming that this team won't be dealing with any more injuries.

You know it's far more likely that the Penguins get healthy, are forced to make a difficult transaction and lose out on a reasonably valuable player, and then 48 hours later someone goes down and has to be put on LTIR.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You know it's far more likely that the Penguins get healthy, are forced to make a difficult transaction and lose out on a reasonably valuable player, and then 48 hours later someone goes down and has to be put on LTIR.

I'd be fairly confident that someone else would get hurt in the month that Blueger is rehabbing tbh. They basically haven't had a healthy roster outside of a few games here and there for years.

 

[Pancakes]

Preseason always has a bunch of day to day injuries. Happens when players start ramping up training and getting into games. Being in "game shape" is a very real thing.

it’s happening across the league tbh.

I know. Was mostly joking. But nevertheless, I can't remember the last time we had a fully healthy roster for any reasonable length of time.

Best we can hope for is that maybe this year the injuries will at least not be to core players.

 

[Peat]

The median number of mangames lost last year was 350 iirc. The odds of having someone constantly on LTIR - particularly if you need someone there - are beginning to get pretty good if you're at around that level.

 

[Andy99]

Not to pile on Dumo…but I will..lol

HockeyBuzz.com - Ryan Wilson - Early thoughts on top pairing + goaltender money

www.hockeybuzz.com

 

[Ugene Magic]

You know it's far more likely that the Penguins get healthy, are forced to make a difficult transaction and lose out on a reasonably valuable player, and then 48 hours later someone goes down and has to be put on LTIR.

That's why trading off a single guy and keeping your depth is better. No need to waive anyone. As dumb as this sounds, the Pens never gave up any assets for McGinn, you could waive him if there are no takers the trade route and someone will claim him for free. Some may not like that, but it gets you to your goal and he's relegated to the 4L, who cares?

Personally, I think it was foolish to sign a 4th liner to near 3.0 after you just got rid of your 3.5 4th liner. It's just doubling down on stupidity.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's why trading off a single guy and keeping your depth is better. No need to waive anyone. As dumb as this sounds, the Pens never gave up any assets for McGinn, you could waive him if there are no takers the trade route and someone will claim him for free. Some may not like that, but it gets you to your goal and he's relegated to the 4L, who cares?

Personally, I think it was foolish to sign a 4th liner to near 3.0 after you just got rid of your 3.5 4th liner. It's just doubling down on stupidity.

Would love to go back to the Fast signing and how everyone here said it was great and now McGinn who is an identical player.

 

[dogthateats]

Would love to go back to the Fast signing and how everyone here said it was great and now McGinn who is an identical player.

My theory is that people don’t know the difference between Jesper Fast and Jesper Bratt.

 

[Gurglesons]

My theory is that people don’t know the difference between Jesper Fast and Jesper Bratt.

Nah they are going to go "BUT LOOK AT WHAT WE COULD DO WITH THAT 750k."

 

[Gurglesons]

Got my new socks.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

That's why trading off a single guy and keeping your depth is better. No need to waive anyone. As dumb as this sounds, the Pens never gave up any assets for McGinn, you could waive him if there are no takers the trade route and someone will claim him for free. Some may not like that, but it gets you to your goal and he's relegated to the 4L, who cares?

Personally, I think it was foolish to sign a 4th liner to near 3.0 after you just got rid of your 3.5 4th liner. It's just doubling down on stupidity.

McGinn averaged 15:00 TOI. Considering we were the least penalized team in the league and he's a staple PK'er, that's a lot of minutes for a 4th liner.
There were plenty of nights where the 4th line played more than the 3rd line, so that label doesn't mean much at that point. Then there were all the games where he got pushed up because of injuries.
He's playing with Blue, who is among the best 4C's in the NHL. It's not a standard arrangement. I suspect the other winger will be an upgrade this year as well, when looking at what Simon and ZAR provided.

He was brought here to replace Tanev, and I'd argue he's done that and more. He was our top PK'er and put up a very respectable 10 5v5 goals in a mega defensive role. That's as many as Rust in almost the same number of games.

If he is being overpaid then it's just barely IMO, and no problem at all. I'm much more concerned about poor spending elsewhere. Zucker's the obvious one but I'm not sold on Petry yet. He can't PP or PK with any kind of competence, and his 5v5 defense is like mid-level at best.
6.5 mil for 3 more years is a lot for a guy who's already 34, considering those things.
He would need to really excel at ES to live up to that deal.

Rakell also has his work cut out for him to be worth 5 mil in a PP2 role.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

McGinn averaged 15:00 TOI. Considering we were the least penalized team in the league and he's a staple PK'er, that's a lot of minutes for a 4th liner.
There were plenty of nights where the 4th line played more than the 3rd line, so that label doesn't mean much at that point. Then there were all the games where he got pushed up because of injuries.
He's playing with Blue, who is among the best 4C's in the NHL. It's not a standard arrangement. I suspect the other winger will be an upgrade this year as well, when looking at what Simon and ZAR provided.

He was brought here to replace Tanev, and I'd argue he's done that and more. He was our top PK'er and put up a very respectable 10 5v5 goals in a mega defensive role. That's as many as Rust in almost the same number of games.

If he is being overpaid then it's just barely IMO, and no problem at all. I'm much more concerned about poor spending elsewhere. Zucker's the obvious one but I'm not sold on Petry yet. He can't PP or PK with any kind of competence, and his 5v5 defense is like mid-level at best.
6.5 mil for 3 more years is a lot for a guy who's already 34, considering those things.
He would need to really excel at ES to live up to that deal.

Rakell also has his work cut out for him to be worth 5 mil in a PP2 role.

I have no issues with McGinn and I think he has a solid season this year.
He has always been a guy you want on your team and while I think he can be better and needs to be he plays his role well. Maybe I am wrong but I want to see the McGinn that Carolina was not happy losing and laid it all out there when it mattered

I dont get the Tanev comparisons b/c turbo was just that, he flew all over the ice and there are not many guys out there that play that way at his level. Tanev didn't mind contact, McGinn doesn't necessarily look for it. They are 2 completely different players.

Petry has some big shoes to fill if you ask me, Matheson was finally finding his game in this system and I really liked him. I know what Petry can bring but there are always questions marks on D-men coming into a new system who had a few lapses in his game later into his career. Regardless I will miss Matheson

 

[3ladesof5teel]

View attachment 589661

Got my new socks.

You need some matching undies

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I have no issues with McGinn and I think he has a solid season this year.
He has always been a guy you want on your team and while I think he can be better and needs to be he plays his role well. Maybe I am wrong but I want to see the McGinn that Carolina was not happy losing and laid it all out there when it mattered

I dont get the Tanev comparisons b/c turbo was just that, he flew all over the ice and there are not many guys out there that play that way at his level. Tanev didn't mind contact, McGinn doesn't necessarily look for it. They are 2 completely different players.

He was brought to replace Tanev's PK duties while providing a little bit of scoring and good defense in the bottom 6.
It doesn't matter how he goes about doing it. The goal is to contribute to winning, which he did.

We got the Carolina McGinn IMO. He never PK'd better than he did here.
From a scoring standpoint his usage got much more difficult here, that's all. He averaged 55.6% D-zone draws in Carolina. Here that rocketed up to 70.4%.
In the playoffs it was an astounding 80.7%. His average for Carolina in the playoffs was 49.2%. Staggering difference.

Even considering all that, he was only 8 points back of his career high, while missing 18 games.

I think the board undersells him a bit. A player can only do the best he can with the opportunities he is given. He got a total of 35 mins with Malkin and failed at that admittedly, but that's nothing. It's like 2.5 games. Who knows how he'll do in a more offensive role given the chance again? Might be serviceable.

 

[Ugene Magic]

McGinn averaged 15:00 TOI. Considering we were the least penalized team in the league and he's a staple PK'er, that's a lot of minutes for a 4th liner.
There were plenty of nights where the 4th line played more than the 3rd line, so that label doesn't mean much at that point. Then there were all the games where he got pushed up because of injuries.
He's playing with Blue, who is among the best 4C's in the NHL. It's not a standard arrangement. I suspect the other winger will be an upgrade this year as well, when looking at what Simon and ZAR provided.

He was brought here to replace Tanev, and I'd argue he's done that and more. He was our top PK'er and put up a very respectable 10 5v5 goals in a mega defensive role. That's as many as Rust in almost the same number of games.

If he is being overpaid then it's just barely IMO, and no problem at all. I'm much more concerned about poor spending elsewhere. Zucker's the obvious one but I'm not sold on Petry yet. He can't PP or PK with any kind of competence, and his 5v5 defense is like mid-level at best.
6.5 mil for 3 more years is a lot for a guy who's already 34, considering those things.
He would need to really excel at ES to live up to that deal.

Rakell also has his work cut out for him to be worth 5 mil in a PP2 role.

He was brought to replace Tanev's PK duties while providing a little bit of scoring and good defense in the bottom 6.
It doesn't matter how he goes about doing it. The goal is to contribute to winning, which he did.

We got the Carolina McGinn IMO. He never PK'd better than he did here.
From a scoring standpoint his usage got much more difficult here, that's all. He averaged 55.6% D-zone draws in Carolina. Here that rocketed up to 70.4%.
In the playoffs it was an astounding 80.7%. His average for Carolina in the playoffs was 49.2%. Staggering difference.

Even considering all that, he was only 8 points back of his career high, while missing 18 games.

I think the board undersells him a bit. A player can only do the best he can with the opportunities he is given. He got a total of 35 mins with Malkin and failed at that admittedly, but that's nothing. It's like 2.5 games. Who knows how he'll do in a more offensive role given the chance again? Might be serviceable.

You do understand the waste that is spending over 6.0 on your 4th line? Some teams use one of their stars as PKers, some spend near half that 6.0 and their PK is good enough. The difference 3.0 could make spending it on upgrading on a Zucker, Rakell or even Rust and having an elite player in your top 6/9 who actually makes a difference when it matters most. What has the 4th line made a difference since they started over spending on it? Regular season success. What has the team had trouble doing? Scoring and staying one ahead of the other team(s) they have faced. This team isn't just top heavy anymore, they are bottom heavy that really doesn't mean anything but pretty graphs and playoff failures.

How far did Carolina get with McGinn? Why did they not want to spend the 2.750 on him?

Carolina didn't really lose anything not re-signing him and got just as far and actually a bit farther being getting to a game 7 in round #2.

Our 4th line, while supposedly a top defensive/PK line, is a detriment to progressing where they need the difference maker more.

Any signings like Heinen or the like at a cheaper cap number for the top 9 while it has no difference makers beyond the usual Crosby, Malkin, Guentzel and even if some want to add Rust to them (he's really not) doesn't put them over the top. Put your cap dollars where you'll get the most bang for your cap. Upgrade on just one player making 5.0 with that 3.0 overspending on the 4th line and they will be much better off. You won't need the perfect PK or 4th line. They'll be giving the top 9 a break instead of worrying about them contributing absolutely nothing when it matters at double the cost.

That only works if you have ELC's who are stars to elite talent, which they don't have.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

McGinn was excellent in the first half last year. His injury derailed his season some but it’s not like he was terrible coming back.