Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[Jacob]

If we buy him out we get an additional 4 mil and 3 mil in cap space the next two years. That is effectively a top nine forward this year and Jake’s raise next.

But we have to find and pay for another 3C.

I'm thinking a 2024 2nd + 4th, or something along those lines would be enough. Maybe just the 2nd if we're lucky.

Supposedly the Canucks are struggling to off-load Garland, which is a great comparable with identical cap hit and being a natural winger. Except in his case, he's a younger, much faster, much better player than MG and could easily be worth his cap hit next year.
It's hard to imagine no sweeteners at all are required for MG, especially with the 2nd year he's got. I would give great praise to Dubas for swinging that.

Let’s just do Granlund for Garland then.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not intending to minimise the risk, although if the prospect guys are right, we're talking guys who'd go top 10 most years.

I'm simply swing big or go home with that pick. Either trade it in a big swing, or swing at the player and hope you get McAvoy. I'm not interested in using it to nibble around the edges.

Yeah I understand this POV. A lot of the proposals involving the #14 pick also include the Penguins acquiring Swayman, so I'm not just saying dump Granlund for the sake of dumping him.

I hear everything you're saying. But...

Dubas has a pretty solid track record in the draft. A high number of his picks as Leafs GM have already made it to the NHL, including later round picks. Rasmus Sandin was 29th overall. Sean Durzi was a second round pick who was used to acquire Jake Muzzin and has played two seasons with the Kings. Matthew Knies was 57th overall.

That increases the curiosity on what he might be able to do with the 14th pick.

I think this overrates Dubas' draft record. The established NHLers he has drafted include Sandin (29th overall in 2018) and Durzi (52nd overall in 2018). It's still early for a lot of these guys, but he hasn't had a ton of success in the draft. His 2020 draft is looking especially bad with Amirov's health issues.

His draft record is obviously miles better than JR's draft record, but I don't see a lot that makes me think that his draft record with the Leafs was anything particularly amazing.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

How much is Granlund even overpaid for our purposes as a middle-6 forward? By 1.5 million? Not even worth buying out.

In most of the board's opinion, he's gonna perform at not much above minimum.
I'm a little more optimistic and thinking like 2-2.5M value in his play.

It depends on injuries and opportunities.

 

[66-30-33]

I'm thinking a 2024 2nd + 4th, or something along those lines would be enough. Maybe just the 2nd if we're lucky.

Supposedly the Canucks are struggling to off-load Garland, which is a great comparable with identical cap hit and being a natural winger. Except in his case, he's a younger, much faster, much better player than MG and could easily be worth his cap hit next year.
It's hard to imagine no sweeteners at all are required for MG, especially with the 2nd year he's got. I would give great praise to Dubas for swinging that.

It’s settled…Granlund for Garland, G for G.

 

[Gurglesons]

But we have to find and pay for another 3C.


Let’s just do Granlund for Garland then.

Yes so pay a player who can be a 3C 4 mil instead of Granlund.

Then Carter’s money’s off the books next year and you are fine.

It’s why I’ve advocated moving the 1st for Nic Roy out of Vegas.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Granlund for Garland is actually a deal I could see making a lot of sense. The Penguins would have to add of course, but it's pretty obvious the Canucks are having buyers remorse with Garland and no one wants to help them out of the commitment they gave him.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Let’s just do Granlund for Garland then.

God I wish. Garland's got 7% worse 5v5 scoring rate than Guentzel in his career, and he flourished under Tocchet. Canucks are trying to get rid of the wrong guy, and just need to use him better.
But they're all about clearing space right now with taking as little back as possible. Desperate, atrocious cap situation in Vancouver.

 

[Peat]

How much is Granlund even overpaid for our purposes as a middle-6 forward? By 1.5 million? Not even worth buying out.

Hard to gauge without seeing him play more games here and knowing how they'd plan to use him here. Like can he find a fit on a 3rd line with two hard-bitten guys acting as the puck distributor? Then maybe 1.5m overpaid. Will he find top 6 work and do okay? Maybe only a million, although he just spent the last three years in Nashville dragging down Duchene and Forsberg so I'm not confident.

If he ends up in the doghouse because he's a perimeter player then he's overpaid by 4.2m.



Incidentally if we didn't have Granlund I'd be pretty interested in Garland for free.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Granlund for Garland is actually a deal I could see making a lot of sense. The Penguins would have to add of course, but it's pretty obvious the Canucks are having buyers remorse with Garland and no one wants to help them out of the commitment they gave him.

Don't think Canucks are willing to take back that kinda cap.

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[Jacob]

In most of the board's opinion, he's gonna perform at not much above minimum.
I'm a little more optimistic and thinking like 2-2.5M value in his play.

It depends on injuries and opportunities.

Granlund needs to play with skill obviously but our top 6 averages about 40 man-games lost per year over the last 3. Some of those overlap but it’s reasonable that he or whoever our 7th best forward is could play half the year in the top 6.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Don't think Canucks are willing to take back that kinda cap.

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And people in hell want ice water

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Incidentally if we didn't have Granlund I'd be pretty interested in Garland for free.

From the local Tweets I've seen, we may even get a sweetener for our trouble.
To me this is a huge opportunity. He has the strongest average 5v5 play out of all our wingers in his career, outside of Jake.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Granlund for Garland is actually a deal I could see making a lot of sense. The Penguins would have to add of course, but it's pretty obvious the Canucks are having buyers remorse with Garland and no one wants to help them out of the commitment they gave him.

That's what I don't get. What do they have to be remorseful about? How much more were they expecting?

 

[Pancakes]

I like Garland. He'd be good here I think.

 

[Empoleon8771]

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That's what I don't get. What do they have to be remorseful about? How much more were they expecting?

A management staff run by Jim Rutherford doesn't look at things rationally? Why I'd never expect that!

But on a more serious tone, I think it can be split into a couple of things:

1. Garland was a Benning addition that he gave a long term deal to, which prevents JR from acquiring a player for that role he'd like.
2. Garland's overall numbers look good, but he has the problem of being a small player and has to deal with that bias.
3. JR is generally impatient and doesn't want to pay a guy $5 million when his coach doesn't want to use him in the top-6.

 

[66-30-33]

I like Garland. He'd be good here I think.

14th OA, Granlund, ++ for JT.Miller and Garland. Canucks can save the cap for Miller but must take Granlund.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I like Garland. He'd be good here I think.

24 points in 36 games under Tocchet in a PP2 role, after getting used properly. That's a slightly better rate than what Zucker did for us this year, and people were thrilled with him.
That's the magic of a coach giving the player the usage he needs, not sticking him with Sheldon Dries on L3 like Boudreau did.
Speed for days, term, hunger, prime age, reasonable defending. Are we really gonna find someone better than this in free agency for 5 mil or less?

A management staff run by Jim Rutherford doesn't look at things rationally? Why I'd never expect that!

But on a more serious tone, I think it can be split into a couple of things:

1. Garland was a Benning addition that he gave a long term deal to, which prevents JR from acquiring a player for that role he'd like.
2. Garland's overall numbers look good, but he has the problem of being a small player and has to deal with that bias.
3. JR is generally impatient and doesn't want to pay a guy $5 million when his coach doesn't want to use him in the top-6.

All true except #3. Tocchet did move him up and the corresponding production followed. I watched some of those games. He was one of their bigger play drivers.
It's Boeser that needs to go. He's more expensive, slower, horrid defensively and produces quite a bit less than this guy relative to his minutes. Plus he's got this old reputation as this great goal scorer, so some idiot GM would bite more easily and save them an asset.

 

[Andy99]

I hear everything you're saying. But...

Dubas has a pretty solid track record in the draft. A high number of his picks as Leafs GM have already made it to the NHL, including later round picks. Rasmus Sandin was 29th overall. Sean Durzi was a second round pick who was used to acquire Jake Muzzin and has played two seasons with the Kings. Matthew Knies was 57th overall.

That increases the curiosity on what he might be able to do with the 14th pick.

And again, only maybe a 10% chance that player is a difference maker…none of those guys you mentioned are elite, not saying they’re not good players…just not difference makers…I’d trade 14OA for Hellebuyck, Swayman, Ullmark…those guys will improve the Pens odds of making and staying in the POs

 

[AuroraBorealis]

14th OA, Granlund, ++ for JT.Miller and Garland. Canucks can save the cap for Miller but must take Granlund.

This would rekindle my hope in our chances next year. But they wanted two 1sts+ for Miller at the deadline. Can't imagine their opinion has changed that much.
We'd have to add.

 

[Gurglesons]

A management staff run by Jim Rutherford doesn't look at things rationally? Why I'd never expect that!

But on a more serious tone, I think it can be split into a couple of things:

1. Garland was a Benning addition that he gave a long term deal to, which prevents JR from acquiring a player for that role he'd like.
2. Garland's overall numbers look good, but he has the problem of being a small player and has to deal with that bias.
3. JR is generally impatient and doesn't want to pay a guy $5 million when his coach doesn't want to use him in the top-6.

I think Rust for Garland would be the more Rutherford type move. I’d also probably do it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think Rust for Garland would be the more Rutherford type move. I’d also probably do it.

Rust's NMC says no to that deal

 

[Gurglesons]

Rust's NMC says no to that deal

Most likely. Just saying what we would likely see. Granlund doesn’t make much sense for Van. Maybe they do Boeser for Granlund + our 1st.

 

[66-30-33]

This would rekindle my hope in our chances next year. But they wanted two 1sts+ for Miller at the deadline. Can't imagine their opinion has changed that much.
We'd have to add.

I dunno the whole deal. 1st, Pickering, Granlund...what else? I'd also look to deal Jake after though, maybe like a Jenner? In would be Jenner, Garland, Miller.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

And again, only maybe a 10% chance that player is a difference maker…none of those guys you mentioned are elite, not saying they’re not good players…just not difference makers…I’d trade 14OA for Hellebuyck, Swayman, Ullmark…those guys will improve the Pens odds of making and staying in the POs

If you can fill a significant hole with a trade involving 14OA, I'm on board.

But I don't think you should move it to clear salary or to fill a bottom six role. Top six, top 4 D, starting goalie, sure.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think this overrates Dubas' draft record. The established NHLers he has drafted include Sandin (29th overall in 2018) and Durzi (52nd overall in 2018). It's still early for a lot of these guys, but he hasn't had a ton of success in the draft. His 2020 draft is looking especially bad with Amirov's health issues.

His draft record is obviously miles better than JR's draft record, but I don't see a lot that makes me think that his draft record with the Leafs was anything particularly amazing.

He seems to target skill/puck movement over going safe, which I like.

Apart from Sandin and Durzi, he also drafted Nick Robertson and Matthew Knies. The latter two aren't "established" yet, but both have shown top six upside at the NHL level. That's a lot more than most of our picks in recent years.