Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[Pancakes]

Of course it should have. The goal is to win championships, not honor players. He was our best asset that'd get the biggest yield, not some 40 year old guy worth nothing on a tiny contract.
Keeping him only eats up cap space and boosts your points when you're trying to lose. It blocks the progression.

I'm not upset. I wasn't expecting it to happen. I knew Hextall's a delusional coward and that ownership was too green to understand where this team was really at.

What they're doing now is what should not have happened. Now they're f***ed. They set the organization back years and will achieve nothing as compensation.
The only thing they'll achieve is satisfying the fans with the core 3 retiring here. Congrats, I guess...

If you call every season cup or bust, you're gonna be busting 99% of the time.

The goal is to make the playoffs. If you get in, you never know. We still can. Once that goal isn't realistic, then you consider tearing it down.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Well... I guess I'd say I hope you can still find reasons to watch. I personally have had my cup run over when it comes to winning and success and as far as I'm concerned these guys can play together until they retire if that is their wish. They delivered, after all. And thensome.

The team is the players and the players are the team. There is no cheering for a logo IMO. There's no point if there is nothing behind it.

 

[Pancakes]

The team is the players and the players are the team. There is no cheering for a logo IMO. There's no point if there is nothing behind it.

100%. Couldn't say it any better

 

[AuroraBorealis]

How much winning is enough for some of you guys? Player legacies matter a lot to me. I don't want to see Sidney Crosby play in another city.

The team should be doing their damndest to win every year or at least progressing the organization towards that. It doesn't matter if you've won 10 Cups in the last 10 years or 0 in the last 50.
There should never be a year that prioritizes feelings over results, let alone several years.

Crosby's legacy was already well secured in summer 2022. This is just milking it.
It wouldn't bother me one bit seeing him on a contender instead of getting wrecked here. In fact that'd make me happy, because that's what he deserves instead of golfing in April.
I very much question that he's gonna end up happier here over this time.

 

[Pancakes]

If we take Aurora's point of view to the logical extreme he was probably upset when Mario came back from retirement because it hurt our pick chances lol.

No offense Aurora I love ya but I vehemently disagree with your take here

 

[Fordy]

Of course it should have. The goal is to win championships, not honor players. He was our best asset that'd get the biggest yield, not some 40 year old guy worth nothing on a tiny contract.
Keeping him only eats up cap space and boosts your points when you're trying to lose. It blocks the progression.

I'm not upset. I wasn't expecting it to happen. I knew Hextall's a delusional coward and that ownership was too green to understand where this team was really at.

What they're doing now is what should not have happened. Now they're f***ed. They set the organization back years and will achieve nothing as compensation.
The only thing they'll achieve is satisfying the fans with the core 3 retiring here. Congrats, I guess...

yeah, fans like to be satisfied, obviously it's going to be frustrating if you aren't actually a fan

 

[AuroraBorealis]

If you call every season cup or bust, you're gonna be busting 99% of the time.

The goal is to make the playoffs. If you get in, you never know. We still can. Once that goal isn't realistic, then you consider tearing it down.

We disagree that they still can win. For me that ship has sailed.
So I view it not as Cup or bust, but as hopeless pretending with a known ending.
I'll respect the opinion of those who think we still can though. I'll be thrilled if I'm wrong and they get Sid another Cup. Right now I have no reason to believe that's in the cards. You need a lot of guys outperforming their contracts to win. We're not built that way, poised to get many of those kinda players.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

If we take Aurora's point of view to the logical extreme he was probably upset when Mario came back from retirement because it hurt our pick chances lol.

No. They reached the 3rd round with Mario in the 1st year. They had a realistic chance (unlike 2023-24), so it was worth doing.
Besides, he needed to come back to save the team from relocation. Our ownership on the other hand is rich as f***. They can absorb a rebuild.

 

[Pancakes]

We disagree that they still can win. For me that ship has sailed.
So I view it not as Cup or bust, but as hopeless pretending to be what they're not.
I'll respect the opinion of those who think we still can though. I'll be thrilled if I'm wrong and they get Sid another Cup. Right now I have no reason to believe that's in the cards. You need a lot of guys outperforming their contracts to win. We're not built that way, poised to get many of those kinda players.

The lottery is all luck anyways. No guarantee that if we took your route we don't just strike out. And then we've moved popular players for nothing.

We will tank soon. No need to rush it

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The lottery is all luck anyways. No guarantee that if we took your route we don't just strike out. And then we've moved popular players for nothing.

We will tank soon. No need to rush it

And because it's luck, you load up on picks to the point that the math is in your favor. I explained how I would have done that above.
Including this past year, I think we're gonna see 4 wasted years total. I get that that's acceptable for you guys, but I care more about the organization than any player.

And I also think it's selfish of fans that lived through the championships to be okay with screwing over the younger/newer generation of fans that didn't experience that. They want to make them wait an extra 4-5 years for a contender that can allow them to see their 1st Cup, all to satisfy their feelings of having Sid play here for ~20 years instead of 16 (at the time).

 

[Malkinstheman]

And because it's luck, you load up on picks to the point that the math is in your favor. I explained how I would have done that above.
Including this past year, I think we're gonna see 4 wasted years total. I get that that's acceptable for you guys, but I care more about the organization than any player.

And I also think it's selfish of fans that lived through the championships to be okay with screwing over the younger generation of fans that didn't experience that. They want to make them wait an extra 4-5 years for a contender that can allow them to see theirr 1st Cup, all to satisfy their feelings of having Sid play here for ~20 years instead of 16 (at the time).

Are you being serious? This legitimately sounds like satire. Also, how can you look around the league and still say that a rebuild is the way to go. Connor f***ing Mcdavid and Leon Draisaitl cant get out of the second round and you think the Pens will magically just rebuild in a few years and win a cup? Ask Buffalo how their decade long rebuild is going. This isnt about being sentimental or some other BS like that. Crosby/Geno are still good players in this league and they might just make some noise in the playoffs if a competent GM comes along.

There is also no guarantee that you tank and get players better than 36/37 year old Crosby and Malkin. Edmonton had top-10 picks from 2007-2013 and none of them come close to Sid/Geno today. Oilers are lucky they finally got generational talents.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

And because it's luck, you load up on picks to the point that the math is in your favor. I explained how I would have done that above.
Including this past year, I think we're gonna see 4 wasted years total. I get that that's acceptable for you guys, but I care more about the organization than any player.

And I also think it's selfish of fans that lived through the championships to be okay with screwing over the younger/newer generation of fans that didn't experience that. They want to make them wait an extra 4-5 years for a contender that can allow them to see their 1st Cup, all to satisfy their feelings of having Sid play here for ~20 years instead of 16 (at the time).

Eh. I had to sit through fiveish years of utter garbage (and then a full year lockout and relocation fears) to come out the other end. Before me there were 80s Penguins fans. Etc.

Everyone has to go through lean years. That's part of the deal. Obviously you want the team to be successful but I just can't worry about potential fans being turned off the team because they want instant gratification. I don't know if people fully grasp HOW successful this era has been. Winning the Cup is incredibly difficult. Much less three times in less than 20 years. 20 years is a long time but there are more than a few who haven't even seen a Final in that time. There are those who have gone over twice as long without even one Cup.

There are those who said they would do a "quick rebuild" and suddenly it's almost 20 years later, too.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Are you being serious? This legitimately sounds like satire. Also, how can you look around the league and still say that a rebuild is the way to go. Connor f***ing Mcdavid and Leon Draisaitl cant get out of the second round and you think the Pens will magically just rebuild in a few years and win a cup? Ask Buffalo how their decade long rebuild is going. This isnt about being sentimental or some other BS like that. Crosby/Geno are still good players in this league and they might just make some noise in the playoffs if a competent GM comes along.

There is also no guarantee that you tank and get players better than 36/37 year old Crosby and Malkin. Edmonton had top-10 picks from 2007-2013 and none of them come close to Sid/Geno today. Oilers are lucky they finally got generational talents.

How is that satire? What the Pens are doing now will set the organization back for ~4 years from being real contenders. The new fans get screwed, being given a team that has no chance to win it all, and one that isn't loading up the farm either. They'll have to deal with ownership trying to deceive them into believing they can win.
Crosby, Geno and Letang are still good players, but they're not elite. More importantly, what they have around them isn't, and will continue to be, not enough. This year showcased that quite well.
This is sentimentality and business. FSG said themselves in April that it's very important that Crosby retires a Pittsburgh Penguin. They're concerned about their brand, with him as the marquee player. They don't understand the league well enough yet to understand what generates championships.

Edmonton failed because of poor management and coaching. They didn't target their core issues, much like the Pens didn't this past year. They had Chiarelli there from 2015-19. One of the worst GM's I've ever seen. Even when Holland took over, they kept hoping their offense will mask their holes. That's not how the playoffs work.

If you rebuild with a clear goal and with big brains in charge, you can save years of futility. Not everything's about 1st rounders either. A lot of our big contributors during our Cups weren't.
Guentzel, Letang, Rust, Murray, Dumoulin, Schultz, Hornqvist etc...
It's a team sport. You win by raising the average level throughout the group, not just by having a few stars. It's not basketball. Their impact is limited.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Eh. I had to sit through fiveish years of utter garbage (and then a full year lockout and relocation fears) to come out the other end. Before me there were 80s Penguins fans. Etc.

Everyone has to go through lean years. That's part of the deal. Obviously you want the team to be successful but I just can't worry about potential fans being turned off the team because they want instant gratification. I don't know if people fully grasp HOW successful this era has been. Winning the Cup is incredibly difficult. Much less three times in less than 20 years. 20 years is a long time but there are more than a few who haven't even seen a Final in that time. There are those who have gone over twice as long without even one Cup.

There are those who said they would do a "quick rebuild" and suddenly it's almost 20 years later, too.

Instant gratification is one thing, but being made to watch years where zero progress is being made is another. During that rebuild you're talking about they were taking steps forward the whole time. People understood the process.
That is in stark contrast to what's coming up here. These years are going down the garbage disposal, with no yields at the end of it.

It doesn't matter how successful the team was in the past. The goal is always to strive towards Cups. Every year. No exceptions.
You do what's best for the team in 2023-24. That's your job as GMs, POHO's and owners. Your job isn't to fake relevancy in terms of Cup contention, and prey on people's nostalgia.

Winning the Cup is very difficult. That's why I'm saying they should be giving themselves every chance to do that instead of f***ing around, wasting time.

 

[Pens x]

We aren’t having a massive fire sale. It’s a real shame that the team pissed away the last three seasons stuck in Hextall purgatory. We are no closer to competing nor did he do much building for the future. The organization got fat and lazy over his reign of incompetence.

 

[Gurglesons]

We aren’t having a massive fire sale. It’s a real shame that the team pissed away the last three seasons stuck in Hextall purgatory. We are no closer to competing nor did he do much building for the future. The organization got fat and lazy over his reign of incompetence.

Hextall did a shitty job making a contender but it’s hard to deny the prospect picture didn’t get slightly better under him.

 

[Freeptop]

The idea that starting a rebuild sooner will make things better sooner is the weirdest combination of pessimism about the current roster with optimism about how quickly a rebuild will be completed.

Look at the Red Wings. Pretty comparable to the Pens in a lot of ways:
Pens won back-to-back in the early '90s, while the Red Wings won back-to-back in the late 90s.
Red Wings then rode a combination of experienced Vets who were still playing at a high level with an infusion of complementary (though not star level) players to win again in '08, and reach the Final in '09.
Now they haven't made the playoffs since 2016, and yet still haven't really drafted any superstar players to truly build around. They're looking better now, but you can't tell me they look like a true "Cup Contender" in the making, even now.

Or, you can simply look at the entire nation of Canada, which hasn't won the Cup since 1994.

Rebuilding offers no more guarantees of winning the Cup than sticking with the Core Three here does. It just guarantees that they miss the playoffs, without much hope of even having entertaining teams (I still remember the 03/04 season all-too-well...)

 

[DesertedPenguin]

As long as Sidney Crosby is a Pittsburgh Penguin, this organization should be trying to compete. Full stop.

Will some teams have better odds? Absolutely. But as long as you get this team into the playoffs, anything can happen.

 

[Andy99]

The Penguins - even this year - with a Hellebuyck / Burns instead of Jarry / Petry is in the playoffs and a tough matchup. They're dangerous with those changes and no Sullivan.

Guys come and go all the time. This Summer you're looking at maybe Marner / Tavares / Matthews / Karlsson +++++ being available. When you're nuts up against the cap you can't do anything. STOP doing that. The team is aging and you have to change the way it looks.

We have 20.2M in cap space this Summer. That's more than enough for a goalie and an impact piece. Your bottom 6 depends on Carter/Granlund moving. Frankly Petry should go. You CAN get this team in to contention - it just needs another guy outside of Sid/Geno to produce goals, someone other than Jarry to stop pucks, and someone other than Sully to coach. Everything else is gravy.

What I'm saying is there aren't any east or west contenders that are just impossible to beat or you throw your hands up. The closest I've seen that was Boston this year and even that was clearly a 1 year thing. These young teams with young stars are absolute paper tigers. Now is the time to steal a victory before those studs take the reins and make your club irrelevant.

I agree with your thinking but Sullivan isn’t going anywhere and without that happening, I’m not sure even if we got aggressive on a big piece and a goalie that that would be enough lol

 

[K Fleur]

This is the year Poulin and Hallander break out and reach their full potential as decent bottom 6 contributors.

In the AHL.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

This is the year Poulin and Hallander break out and reach their full potential as decent bottom 6 contributors.

In the AHL.

I know you're gonna lose a ton of sleep over this but Hallander won't, no. He already told the Penguins to sit and spin and signed back home.

 

[K Fleur]

I know you're gonna lose a ton of sleep over this but Hallander won't. no. He already told the Penguins to sit and spin and signed back home.

Judging by what we saw of him the NHL; huge loss.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The idea that starting a rebuild sooner will make things better sooner is the weirdest combination of pessimism about the current roster with optimism about how quickly a rebuild will be completed.

Look at the Red Wings. Pretty comparable to the Pens in a lot of ways:
Pens won back-to-back in the early '90s, while the Red Wings won back-to-back in the late 90s.
Red Wings then rode a combination of experienced Vets who were still playing at a high level with an infusion of complementary (though not star level) players to win again in '08, and reach the Final in '09.
Now they haven't made the playoffs since 2016, and yet still haven't really drafted any superstar players to truly build around. They're looking better now, but you can't tell me they look like a true "Cup Contender" in the making, even now.

Or, you can simply look at the entire nation of Canada, which hasn't won the Cup since 1994.

Rebuilding offers no more guarantees of winning the Cup than sticking with the Core Three here does. It just guarantees that they miss the playoffs, without much hope of even having entertaining teams (I still remember the 03/04 season all-too-well...)

Rebuilding is obviously not a guarantee when you botch it with premature or stupid choices. That's not an indication of anything other than incompetence, if it lasts as long as it has for the Wings and Oilers.
I'd be pretty confident with a rebuild in Tulsky's hands, especially if they choose the right President too. Not all front offices and ownership are equal. Different teams' situations are not ours.
I'd settle for getting the team back into the mix for contention. Obviously it's hard to demand actual championships, since only one team wins every year.

I don't know that it's fair to call me pessimistic. It's more like an acceptance of reality. I would say some of you guys are irrationally optimistic, if anything.
But if I end up wrong and they win next year then I'll be happy and take my whippings here with grace.

 

[Ugene Magic]

This is the year Poulin and Hallander break out and reach their full potential as decent bottom 6 contributors.

In the AHL.

Hate to break it to you, but Hallander is gone.

Edit: I should have refreshed first, BWM beat me to it.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Judging by what we saw of him the NHL; huge loss.

Yeah no doubt. Still a waste.

I think it's funny that the Penguins drafted, traded, re-acquired and then ultimately lost for nothing not just one but two guys in Hallander and Kapanen within a short period of time. Not really "ha ha" funny, mind you. But funny.

First and second rounders, too. Bravo.