Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[BusinessGoose]

Will you wait with the rebuild until Crosby, Malkin and Letang retire?

I mean they won everything, why not start now and have them as mentors?

Would this be disrespectful to them?

How do you rebuild with no prospects and no draft picks?

 

[Andy99]

How do you rebuild with no prospects and no draft picks?

Sell off current players who have value, such as Jake, and get some prospects and picks…not happening anyway…Sid does not want a rebuild and he (and Sullivan) unfortunately are controlling things for the next couple years, regardless of who comes in as GM etc

 

[AuroraBorealis]

How do you rebuild with no prospects and no draft picks?

Nobody pulls the trigger on a rebuild decision when they're already loaded up on picks. If they have those that means they haven't been trying to win for a while.

I don't see how trying to win in a hopeless year is better than selling what you can through trade, and then using all the resulting cap space as a dumping ground for more picks.

At least by the time April/May rolls around you will have taken the first steps back to real contention. You will have something to show for the year.
With our current course, what are we expecting by that time? A 1st round/2nd round fail (or another miss), and being a few draft picks lighter? Wonderful. Zero progress again. In fact that's a step back in terms of a return to relevance.

 

[independent observer]

How do you rebuild with no prospects and no draft picks?

Well… last time I checked is that you have a 1st rounder this time.
You can start to clear the house like chicago did and get draft capital. There is always a way.

 

[Malkinstheman]

You can't really rebuild as long as Sid/Geno/Letang are playing. This season the coach/goalies/bottom-6 were all horrible and the team only missed the playoffs by 2 points. Pens won't be bad enough to bottom out until those guys retire

 

[BusinessGoose]

Okay so you get another pick for jake

Who the hell else under contract is worth anything?

And how is the 14th and... Some mid 20s pick gonna do anything of note?

We'll have cap space! Name the last good FA we brought into PIT...

You need a concerted effort of four years of suck to build anything. Core is retired by then.

 

[Jacob]

The time to rebuild was a year and some months ago when we had a ton of pending UFAs and we could’ve loaded up on 1sts and 2nds. Our next window will be in a couple more years when we can start trading the Petrys, Rusts and Rakells for futures.

I like what Nashville is doing. A quick rebuild. They could’ve gotten more value in the off-season, or at least that’s what most would’ve done is wait until the draft. Don’t wait until you’re in the basement with no assets and no interest from UFAs, load up on picks and cap room and let your new GM build the team he wants.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I like what Nashville is doing. A quick rebuild. They could’ve gotten more value in the off-season, or at least that’s what most would’ve done is wait until the draft. Don’t wait until you’re in the basement with no assets and no interest from UFAs, load up on picks and cap room and let your new GM build the team he wants.

Yeah that second rounder they picked up for that bum Granlund was a savvy move.

 

[Ulf5]

Granlund/Malkin/Rust is seriously a thing people would be content with heading into next year.

Geez man. Really counting on that "bounceback year" from Rust, I guess. A BIG one, at that.

I wouldn't call it content. Just the possibility of the lesser of two evils. I personally think you could off-load Granlund without attaching any assests. Whoever thought Brockstar could be dumped so cheap? But in today's NHL landscape you never know.
But if the options are buyout, paying to dump salary or keeping him, then I'm trying him in the top 6 first.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I wouldn't call it content. Just the possibility of the lesser of two evils. I personally think you could off-load Granlund without attaching any assests. Whoever thought Brockstar could be dumped so cheap? But in today's NHL landscape you never know.
But if the options are buyout, paying to dump salary or keeping him, then I'm trying him in the top 6 first.

It's whatever.

I just anticipate howls of "GRR I TOLD U MALKIN SUX" all next year when he can't shine those TWO turds he'll be carrying into diamonds at the tender age of 37.

More importantly a Granlund/Malkin/Rust line will be flat out awful and not help the team in any facet of the game. I can't think of one thing that line would do well aside from be massively frustrating.

 

[Gurglesons]

The time to rebuild was a year and some months ago when we had a ton of pending UFAs and we could’ve loaded up on 1sts and 2nds. Our next window will be in a couple more years when we can start trading the Petrys, Rusts and Rakells for futures.

I like what Nashville is doing. A quick rebuild. They could’ve gotten more value in the off-season, or at least that’s what most would’ve done is wait until the draft. Don’t wait until you’re in the basement with no assets and no interest from UFAs, load up on picks and cap room and let your new GM build the team he wants.

Not sure there is any quick rebuilding going on there lol.

They are the same team they’ve always been. 6 - 8th seed with not enough talent to get past that.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The time to rebuild was a year and some months ago when we had a ton of pending UFAs and we could’ve loaded up on 1sts and 2nds. Our next window will be in a couple more years when we can start trading the Petrys, Rusts and Rakells for futures.

I like what Nashville is doing. A quick rebuild. They could’ve gotten more value in the off-season, or at least that’s what most would’ve done is wait until the draft. Don’t wait until you’re in the basement with no assets and no interest from UFAs, load up on picks and cap room and let your new GM build the team he wants.

While I agree that last summer would have been best, I'd argue it's still better accumulating picks now than making your starting point in ~3 years, making no progress as an organization during that time. Even if the development trajectory of the picks doesn't line up with the later ascension, you can just trade them again for futures that do line up.

What they're doing now has no purpose. The Cup is not within reach. Honoring the core isn't a worthy goal from an organizational standpoint. It's time wasting, while trying to maintain appearances that no one really believes anymore.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

While I agree that last summer would have been best, I'd argue it's still better accumulating picks now than making your starting point in ~3 years, making no progress as an organization during that time. Even if the development trajectory of the picks doesn't line up with the later ascension, you can just trade them again for futures that do line up.

What they're doing now has no purpose. The Cup is not within reach. Honoring the core isn't a worthy goal from an organizational standpoint. It's time wasting, while trying to maintain appearances that no one really believes anymore.

Just out of curiosity what would you have done last offseason?

Bearing in mind Sidney Crosby is still very much under contract and how the idea of "tear it down to the studs" would fly with a player such as that.

The moment Crosby put ink to paper years ago this was the outcome. I dunno why everyone is so dramatic about it.

 

[66-30-33]

Yeah that second rounder they picked up for that bum Granlund was a savvy move.

Imagine if they retained 50%? probably get him for the 14th OA and Pickering.

 

[molon labe]

This team really is a handful of moves from competing. Anyone crying for outright rebuilds and selling off the stars probably isn't watching much hockey.

The league is in a transition period where the new dominant teams have yet to actually take foot hold - so we're in prime real estate for stealing a major victory (or two?).

The playoffs for two seasons now have been about will. This team has a core that has it - but it has a dog shit coach and horrible supporting staff/goalie. You CAN fix those things. You have a TON of cap space just don't go sign nonfactors like Zucker. I really don't know why this take of sell off everything to become a bottom feeder is so coveted. Like a big bowl of self loathing here on these boards. You've had it good therefore you want it bad or something.

In the future? Why do assets not matter now? Because cap is king. You could have absolutely no prospects but when Sid/Geno retire have 60-70M in cap space and turn yourself around in a matter of half a decade. You suck, hopefully land a top C / D in 2 drafts - then plug the rest with the massive cap space you have. The teams left are teams that have utilized cap flexibility to their advantage. Colorado won a cup based on that (had about 40M in space a season before they won) - this team has just shaded away from that in recent years for the wrong reasons. It's one thing to spend max when you have legitimate support and entirely another to have washed and under-performing guys.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

This team really is a handful of moves from competing. Anyone crying for outright rebuilds and selling off the stars probably isn't watching much hockey.

The league is in a transition period where the new dominant teams have yet to actually take foot hold - so we're in prime real estate for stealing a major victory (or two?).

The playoffs for two seasons now have been about will. This team has a core that has it - but it has a dog shit coach and horrible supporting staff/goalie. You CAN fix those things. You have a TON of cap space just don't go sign nonfactors like Zucker. I really don't know why this take of sell off everything to become a bottom feeder is so coveted. Like a big bowl of self loathing here on these boards. You've had it good therefore you want it bad or something.

In the future? Why do assets not matter now? Because cap is king. You could have absolutely no prospects but when Sid/Geno retire have 60-70M in cap space and turn yourself around in a matter of half a decade. You suck, hopefully land a top C / D in 2 drafts - then plug the rest with the massive cap space you have. The teams left are teams that have utilized cap flexibility to their advantage. Colorado won a cup based on that (had about 40M in space a season before they won) - this team has just shaded away from that in recent years for the wrong reasons. It's one thing to spend max when you have legitimate support and entirely another to have washed and under-performing guys.

I don't think that the Penguins can be Cup contenders, now. They've zigged too much when they should have zagged since 2017. Had they played their cards right... I think last year and this coming year would have been the payoff seasons where they were in prime position to make a little noise. But they played it safe/stupid, instead.

But I guess I just cannot understand this "yeah well I'm happy they missed the playoffs lol" shit. It's like people don't watch what happens nearly every single year to the "juggernaut" teams. Or didn't pay attention to what the "awful no chance" Penguins nearly pulled against the Rangers just last season even though it ended in disaster. Also the whole "they shoulda blown it up" stuff is couched in utter fantasy.

Just wait a couple of short years. They'll suck soon enough and ya'll can have your precious rebuild that may or may not last over a decade. And maybe we'll get lucky and get a like... Huberdeau-level player to build around. Yippie skippy. I know I'm in a real rush for all that.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Just out of curiosity what would you have done last offseason?

Bearing in mind Sidney Crosby is still very much under contract and how the idea of "tear it down to the studs" would fly with a player such as that.

The moment Crosby put ink to paper years ago this was the outcome. I dunno why everyone is so dramatic about it.

I'm also not sure how accumulating a bunch of 1st round picks in the 20+ range will really move the needle, especially for this team and its scouting staff.

Maybe if this staff had a track record of landing Pastrnaks, Kucherovs, or J. Robertsons with their late 1st/early 2nds, then selling off assets for those picks would be appealing. But I'm not sure how landing the 25th overall pick for Jake Guentzel does anything toward the rebuild as our organization currently stands.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm also not sure how accumulating a bunch of 1st round picks in the 20+ range will really move the needle, especially for this team and its scouting staff.

Maybe if this staff had a track record of landing Pastrnaks, Kucherovs, or J. Robertsons with their late 1st/early 2nds, then selling off assets for those picks would be appealing. But I'm not sure how landing the 25th overall pick for Jake Guentzel does anything toward the rebuild as our organization currently stands.

I mean I would sell Jake but mostly because I think he's been slipping and I don't want the team to cough up like 8+ million for all that.

I agree with your larger point.

 

[molon labe]

I don't think that the Penguins can be Cup contenders, now. They've zigged too much when they should have zagged since 2017. Had they played their cards right... I think last year and this coming year would have been the payoff seasons where they were in prime position to make a little noise. But they played it safe/stupid, instead.

But I guess I just cannot understand this "yeah well I'm happy they missed the playoffs lol" shit. It's like people don't watch what happens nearly every single year to the "juggernaut" teams. Or didn't pay attention to what the "awful no chance" Penguins nearly pulled against the Rangers just last season even though it ended in disaster. Also the whole "they shoulda blown it up" stuff is couched in utter fantasy.

Just wait a couple of short years. They'll suck soon enough and ya'll can have your precious rebuild that may or may not last over a decade.

The Penguins - even this year - with a Hellebuyck / Burns instead of Jarry / Petry is in the playoffs and a tough matchup. They're dangerous with those changes and no Sullivan.

Guys come and go all the time. This Summer you're looking at maybe Marner / Tavares / Matthews / Karlsson +++++ being available. When you're nuts up against the cap you can't do anything. STOP doing that. The team is aging and you have to change the way it looks.

We have 20.2M in cap space this Summer. That's more than enough for a goalie and an impact piece. Your bottom 6 depends on Carter/Granlund moving. Frankly Petry should go. You CAN get this team in to contention - it just needs another guy outside of Sid/Geno to produce goals, someone other than Jarry to stop pucks, and someone other than Sully to coach. Everything else is gravy.

What I'm saying is there aren't any east or west contenders that are just impossible to beat or you throw your hands up. The closest I've seen that was Boston this year and even that was clearly a 1 year thing. These young teams with young stars are absolute paper tigers. Now is the time to steal a victory before those studs take the reigns and make your club irrelevant.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The Penguins - even this year - with a Hellebuyck / Burns instead of Jarry / Petry is in the playoffs and a tough matchup. They're dangerous with those changes and no Sullivan.

Guys come and go all the time. This Summer you're looking at maybe Marner / Tavares / Matthews / Karlsson +++++ being available. When you're nuts up against the cap you can't do anything. STOP doing that. The team is aging and you have to change the way it looks.

We have 20.2M in cap space this Summer. That's more than enough for a goalie and an impact piece. Your bottom 6 depends on Carter/Granlund moving. Frankly Petry should go. You CAN get this team in to contention - it just needs another guy outside of Sid/Geno to produce goals, someone other than Jarry to stop pucks, and someone other than Sully to coach. Everything else is gravy.

What I'm saying is there aren't any east or west contenders that are just impossible to beat or you throw your hands up. The closest I've seen that was Boston this year and even that was clearly a 1 year thing. These young teams with young stars are absolute paper tigers. Now is the time to steal a victory before those studs take the reigns and make your club irrelevant.

To be honest I am actually largely on board with your way of thinking. I don't see any teams clearly establishing themselves as the big dogs, either (Colorado maybe?). The landscape still seems fairly fluid at least right now. In that environment you are correct that a well built team with proven winners like Sid/Malkin can make some serious noise IMO.

But then there is the bolded. That's a lot to do. Especially when you consider a huge factor in your plan is absolutely not going anywhere for at least a year and the team does not have the will to do what is right, there.

But FWIW I agree more with you than the "WAHHHHHH I WANNUM SUCK" crowd.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Just out of curiosity what would you have done last offseason?

Bearing in mind Sidney Crosby is still very much under contract and how the idea of "tear it down to the studs" would fly with a player such as that.

The moment Crosby put ink to paper years ago this was the outcome. I dunno why everyone is so dramatic about it.

Sid is not the GM or owner. It's not his decision.
Besides, nothing about Crosby's personality tells me that he wouldn't waive his NMC if he was told they're rebuilding. He's a good soldier. He would accept a trade in that scenario, knowing they're done trying to win. He wouldn't fight to stay on a sinking ship. Very few stars would.

Last summer I would have traded Sid, Guentzel, Jarry, Marino, Petts, Matheson...anyone and everyone that'd get decent picks or at least be big cap dumps that wouldn't require sweeteners.
I would not have re-signed Rust, Rakell, Letang or Malkin. Instead, I'd weaponize all the cap space by taking on contracts no one wants in exchange for more picks.

The Pens would have drafted much higher this year, and we'd be looking at notable progress. They'd have a slough of picks, with good odds of hitting on a few of them.
The team would not have sealed itself into being a hopeless bubble team for several years. They'd use all that time rebuilding instead of pretending. Every year, loading up on garbage for more picks until the good ones develop and are ready to help them win again.

You'd save at least 3 years this way compared to what they have planned.
Yeah, that team would lose a lot. But this team isn't winning Cups either, so what's the point?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Oh you would have tried to trade Crosby.

Well no disrespect because I admire your bold thinking. But no. It's no wonder you're upset. That would have never happened in a million years. Nor should it have.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I mean I would sell Jake but mostly because I think he's been slipping and I don't want the team to cough up like 8+ million for all that.

I agree with your larger point.

Thing is I'd rather swap Jake in a Tkachuk-for-Huberdeau type deal rather than trade Jake for a late 1st and a B-level prospect that Sullivan will never play anyways.

I just think that as long as Sid and Geno are still around and playing like point per game players, there is no "rebuild". Having two centers who can score you 80-ish points likely means you'll never be bad enough to draft top 5. At worst, it'll be seasons like this past one where they barely miss and draft in the 13-16 range.

 

[Pancakes]

How much winning is enough for some of you guys? Player legacies matter a lot to me. I don't want to see Sidney Crosby play in another city.

And I certainly don't want to tear down a team that can still contend for a playoff spot.

Also, anyone that can make the playoffs can win the cup. The Panthers were Pens wins over Chicago and Columbus from not even making the playoffs. Now they're maybe gonna go to the cup finals, and possibly win it all. They beat the 65 win Bruins.

I don't get being so thirsty for the next great thing that people want to throw Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin away like yesterday's news.

I'd rather wait for the tank to come. When it comes, then you re-evaluate. We're not there yet.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Oh you would have tried to trade Crosby.

Well no disrespect because I admire your bold thinking. But no. It's no wonder you're upset. That would have never happened in a million years. Nor should it have.

Of course it should have. The goal is to win championships, not honor players. He was our best asset that'd get the biggest yield, not some 40 year old guy worth nothing on a tiny contract.
Keeping him only eats up cap space and boosts your points when you're trying to lose. It blocks the progression.

I'm not upset. I wasn't expecting it to happen. I knew Hextall's a delusional coward and that ownership was too green to understand where this team was really at.

What they're doing now is what should not have happened. Now they're f***ed. They set the organization back years and will achieve nothing as compensation.
The only thing they'll achieve is satisfying the fans with the core 3 retiring here. Congrats, I guess...