Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[SEALBound]

Absolutely.

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Interesting note: Both Matthews and Marner have zero trade protections - until July 1st. At that point they both have full NMC's kicking in. Never knew that. Should they get swept... might be something worth exploring. Both can obviously create offense.

Magical how Toronto can sign those massive deals without NMCs...Minnesota can sign Kaprizov in a similar fashion (NMC final 2 years)...New Jersey with Hischier / Hughes both similar with NMCs halfway through the deal...Sebastian Aho on Carolina with no trade protection whatsoever...

But the Penguins have to give NMC or NTC to every single player they sign. They'll do it again with Zucker and it'll be a death knell for this team. Why the F are they handed out so frequently.

I think Matthews and Marner got full value though. Neither left money on the table. I imagine a NTC/NMC is a bargaining chip in negotiations and might be worth more to an old guy like Carter. "$4mil with nothing meaning we can waive or trade you...or $3mil with a NMC".

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Looks like 25 based on browsing players on Capfriendly (Barkov / McDavid math checked out).

That would have meant this season for Matthews instead of next.

CapFriendly says 7 accrued seasons or 27 years of age.

 

[molon labe]

I think Matthews and Marner got full value though. Neither left money on the table. I imagine a NTC/NMC is a bargaining chip in negotiations and might be worth more to an old guy like Carter. "$4mil with nothing meaning we can waive or trade you...or $3mil with a NMC".

Perhaps.

Counter points would be Pastrnak and Seth Jones though.

Either way, those are the surefire chips the Leafs have this Summer if they choose to retool the team. They'd be silly not to explore at least Marner. You're not replacing Matthews but if you think he's gone anyway you might as well recoup some assets or get a solid player(s) in return.

Basically us with Guentzel. He's the only player we have without outright hands-tied behind our backs clause(s) that would net something significant. Whether that would offset his goal tallies is debatable. Rakell and Pettersson are the minor assets that really wouldn't do much to move. Absolute stupidity that Rust has a full NMC. He has to bounce back or we're in for some rough years.

Not all doom and gloom though. We should be able to get creative, use the cap space and 1st rounder to retool enough to be competitive.

 

[Andy99]

From the Trade board
Jake+14ov+CDS for Hellebuyck+Kyle Connor+5th+7th. I do this personally.


If we didn't have Granlund, this would be theoretically doable. With him taking $5mil, probably not. Not ensure sure a buyout helps all that much.

You'd need Zucker at like $4mil and Bertz in the 5's.

Hell yeah I’d do that…which means it’ll never happen lol

 

[Goalie_Bob]

I'm trying to figure out what a 5th and 7th round pick bring to the equation.

 

[SEALBound]

Perhaps.

Counter points would be Pastrnak and Seth Jones though.

Either way, those are the surefire chips the Leafs have this Summer if they choose to retool the team. They'd be silly not to explore at least Marner. You're not replacing Matthews but if you think he's gone anyway you might as well recoup some assets or get a solid player(s) in return.

Basically us with Guentzel. He's the only player we have without outright hands-tied behind our backs clause(s) that would net something significant. Whether that would offset his goal tallies is debatable. Rakell and Pettersson are the minor assets that really wouldn't do much to move. Absolute stupidity that Rust has a full NMC. He has to bounce back or we're in for some rough years.

Not all doom and gloom though. We should be able to get creative, use the cap space and 1st rounder to retool enough to be competitive.

I wonder if you could approach Toronto with the idea of Guentzel+1st for Marner with the idea that if Jake costs you $6mil and then gets the $7-8mil on his new deal, you get $4mil this year to spend on additional depth and $3mil the next years. You are still getting a 40g scorer and a playoff performer. Then you can spend the 1st on something else you need or recoup a young player.

Maybe using the Tkachuk trade as a base:

Jake+1st+Weeger Equiv for Marner

But may depend on how much they value the cap space though.

 

[Gurglesons]

I wonder if you could approach Toronto with the idea of Guentzel+1st for Marner with the idea that if Jake costs you $6mil and then gets the $7-8mil on his new deal, you get $4mil this year to spend on additional depth and $3mil the next years. You are still getting a 40g scorer and a playoff performer. Then you can spend the 1st on something else you need or recoup a young player.

Maybe using the Tkachuk trade as a base:

Jake+1st+Weeger Equiv for Marner

But may depend on how much they value the cap space though.

Love Marner but what does he realistically do for this team?

 

[SEALBound]

Love Marner but what does he realistically do for this team?

Provides an ability to create offense besides Sid or Geno? At least at a level higher than Guentzel. Be our best wing since Kessel.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Marner's a serious candidate to be the best 2-way Forward in hockey next season.
What he doesn't do is a shorter answer.

He'd become our best defensive Forward, our best play driver, our best PP creator (huge help with zone entries), our best PKer, and would have good odds to be our biggest even-strength point producer.
Solid durability on top of everything.

He even popped in 30 goals, despite being a playmaker primarily.

Guentzel is not on this guy's level. He's trash at ES defense, can't PK, and isn't particularly good on the PP.
I love Jake but he's not some Swiss army knife player.

 

[SEALBound]

Marner's a serious candidate to be the best 2-way Forward in hockey next season.
What he doesn't do is a shorter answer.

He'd become our best defensive Forward, our best play driver, our best PP creator (huge help with zone entries), our best PKer, and would have good odds to be our biggest even-strength point producer.
Solid durability on top of everything.

He even popped in 30 goals, despite being a playmaker primarily.

Guentzel is not on this guy's level. He's trash at ES defense, can't PK, and isn't particularly good on the PP.
I love Jake but he's not some Swiss army knife player.

Yeah I would say Marner is a player that makes all 32 teams better if you put him on the roster.

2022-23 season, Jake out, Marner in - we are a better team. As you indicated though, he's a premier player in the league which makes me wonder if Jake+1st would even be enough.

I would also be interested in Nylander. The dude is a playoff beast.

 

[Gurglesons]

Provides an ability to create offense besides Sid or Geno? At least at a level higher than Guentzel. Be our best wing since Kessel.

I’m not sure I see the fit. Marner is a guy who does what Sid and Geno want with the puck.

Kessel kind of had that issue outside of a year or two.

If we are trading Jake, I think the goal is to get a different skill set in the top six.

 

[SEALBound]

I’m not sure I see the fit. Marner is a guy who does what Sid and Geno want with the puck.

Kessel kind of had that issue outside of a year or two.

If we are trading Jake, I think the goal is to get a different skill set in the top six.

It's okay to have two guys on a line that want the puck. Marner makes it work with Matthews and Tavaras. All put up respectable numbers.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's okay to have two guys on a line that want the puck. Marner makes it work with Matthews and Tavaras. All put up respectable numbers.

Matthews and Tavares are both known as goal scorers though.

That’s why Marner works well with them.

 

[Jacob]

Neither Dubas nor any other GM would have the guts to tinker with Toronto’s core. They’ll just keep tweaking the bottom 6 and goaltending.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Jake's so immensely overrated around here because of the player he was the first couple of playoffs in the league. If/when he's eventually dealt, he's gonna regress to being like a 55-60pt guy who is absolute dogshit away from the puck.

-edit- Godspeed to whoever hands him that $9 million AAV deal in the next calendar year. Hope it won't be the Pens.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Neither Dubas nor any other GM would have the guts to tinker with Toronto’s core. They’ll just keep tweaking the bottom 6 and goaltending.

We don't need someone that would be the Pens 2023-24 MVP anyway. I'm not sure I see the fit.

 

[Gurglesons]

Jake's so immensely overrated around here because of the player he was the first couple of playoffs in the league. If/when he's eventually dealt, he's gonna regress to being like a 55-60pt guy who is absolute dogshit away from the puck.

-edit- Godspeed to whoever hands him that $9 million AAV deal in the next calendar year. Hope it won't be the Pens.

I think if Guentzel is moved Sid and Malkin are the ones you see regress tbh.

 

[molon labe]

I think if Guentzel is moved Sid and Malkin are the ones you see regress tbh.

If it were for Marner, regression would not be a concern. Would absolutely boost Sids goal totals. And goal scoring Sid is best Sid.

I think it's in the realm of possibility. Toronto may use playoff performances and contracts as justification - pretty good justification. We would use player abilities as justification.

I'd be all over a Guentzel + 1st for Marner but not even sure it would take a 1st... Jake does have pretty stout numbers. Regardless I'd do the old GMJR "send it"

 

[Gurglesons]

If it were for Marner, regression would not be a concern. Would absolutely boost Sids goal totals. And goal scoring Sid is best Sid.

I think it's in the realm of possibility. Toronto may use playoff performances and contracts as justification - pretty good justification. We would use player abilities as justification.

I'd be all over a Guentzel + 1st for Marner but not even sure it would take a 1st... Jake does have pretty stout numbers. Regardless I'd do the old GMJR "send it"

If we can get Marner for 1st plus Jake I do it. But highly doubt that happens.

 

[ChaosAgent]

If swapping Jake for a different player can turn the powerplay up, I'd do it. The problem is the hierarchy weirdness of our team where Jake's spot on the PP is an entitlement position. Our PP is all pomp and circumstance for the mythology of the 2016-2018 Penguins with very middling effectiveness.

Marner's a RW...we'd need to move one of ours to do it.

What if Rust waived and we did:
Jake, Rust, 1st
For Marner + Jarnkrok

Jarnkrok is whatever, but he sends some salary our way. Most importantly, this trade brings in a great player while taking 2/3 of Sully's faves in Jake-Rust...and we let Dumo walk this summer. Bye to the second core entitled to top 6 time, PP time, first LD time. Bye to the reflexive coaching decisions.

I don't think it's impossible Rust waives for Toronto either. Unlikely, but not impossible.

 

[66-30-33]

If swapping Jake for a different player can turn the powerplay up, I'd do it. The problem is the hierarchy weirdness of our team where Jake's spot on the PP is an entitlement position. Our PP is all pomp and circumstance for the mythology of the 2016-2018 Penguins with very middling effectiveness.

Marner's a RW...we'd need to move one of ours to do it.

What if Rust waived and we did:
Jake, Rust, 1st
For Marner + Jarnkrok

Jarnkrok is whatever, but he sends some salary our way. Most importantly, this trade brings in a great player while taking 2/3 of Sully's faves in Jake-Rust...and we let Dumo walk this summer. Bye to the second core entitled to top 6 time, PP time, first LD time. Bye to the reflexive coaching decisions.

I don't think it's impossible Rust waives for Toronto either. Unlikely, but not impossible.

Poor Malkin.

Rakell-Crosby-Marner

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I'd rather keep the 40-goal scorer who has documented chemistry with both of the team's top two centers and has a reputation for producing in the playoffs.

Rust is the piece to move, but I think it'd be extremely difficult.

If you can't move Rust, you need to construct a third line that carries a heavy load with Rust being the central figure. The only way this is possible is if you find a way to get out from under Granlund and Carter's contracts and go with a decently priced tandem in goal.

Guentzel-Crosby-AA
BB-Malkin-Rakell
CC-DD-Rust
DOC-Poehling-EE
FF

AA and BB should be in the mold of Zucker, guys who get in on the forecheck, are reliable defensively, and can chip in 20 goals by going to the net or surprising a goalie with a shot.

CC/DD need to be in the mold of prime Hagelin/Bonino. Defensively conscious guys who have no problem swallowing tough minutes because they can use their speed and hockey IQ to get out of their own zone and pressure the opposing D.

EE is whichever young guy is playing well with a bit of scoring punch. The fourth line is 25-and-under line. Puustinen, Nylander, Poulin, Gruden. Bring them up and let them go for 10-15 games, see if they stick.

FF is the vet 13th forward on league minimum you can stick in there because of injuries but then bench easily without there being an issue.

 

[Andy99]

Rakell wasn’t great with Malkin…go look at the analytics…he should be paired with Sid

 

[ChaosAgent]

Poor Malkin.

Rakell-Crosby-Marner

Nah, Malkin gets Marner in that scenario.

I continue to ask if anyone thinks that Guentzel on PP1 is the correct decision, and if there is any chance of him NOT being on PP1 if he is here, in a contract year.
To me PP1 totally nullifies the good work of our top forwards at even strength. It is treated as an entitlement.

 

[Rudy Russo]

Rakell wasn’t great with Malkin…go look at the analytics…he should be paired with Sid

Pens fans know that, however, Mike Sullivan doesn't.