Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[BrookswasHere44]

Blueger was always heavily overvalued by this forum. He's a dime a dozen guy, and every franchise has several similar players. None of them are special.

Speaking of, has he been playing in Vegas?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

This. He was drafted by the pens and people overrated a homegrown product.

Someone else in his price range would have done worse in his role, outside of last year. That's what people don't get. His role was difficult, especially mentally. It's not a fun way to play.

Sign Barbashev and Bertuzzi.

There is no reason to believe Bertuzzi would choose us out of the many suitors he'll get. We have no leverage. "Coming to play with Sid or Geno" doesn't mean what it used to. The team's reputation is failing. 5 years without a series W. If you're Bertuzzi and you come here, that's like signing a document guaranteeing that you're not gonna win a Cup during the years you're with the team.
Where's the incentive? He'll get an offer from a current contender or a team on the rise. Seattle for example could swing it. Why go on the sinking ship instead?

To bring good pieces in our situation we have to:
A) Trade
B) Overpay free agents
C) Find sneaky upside guys that are off the radar and won't get many offers
D) Bring someone that has an emotional connection to the city or the Penguins. ERod for example is a realistic option at 3C.

So to get Bertuzzi you'd have to do (B). We'd probably have to offer like 6M per. He wouldn't be worth it in a PP2 role.
I could see Zucker taking 4 or 4.5M, based on his last few interviews. It just makes more sense in our situation.

 

[Pens x]

Speaking of, has he been playing in Vegas?

Nope. His last game was April 13th.

 

[Pens x]

Someone else in his price range would have done worse in his role, outside of last year. That's what people don't get. His role was difficult, especially mentally. It's not a fun way to play.

There is no reason to believe Bertuzzi would choose us out of the many suitors he'll get. We have no leverage. "Coming to play with Sid or Geno" doesn't mean what it used to. The team's reputation is failing. 5 years without a series W. If you're Bertuzzi and you come here, that's like signing a document guaranteeing that you're not gonna win a Cup during the years you're with the team.
Where's the incentive? He'll get an offer from a current contender or a team on the rise. Seattle for example could swing it. Why go on the sinking ship instead?

To bring good pieces in our situation we have to:
A) Trade
B) Overpay free agents
C) Find sneaky upside guys that are off the radar and won't get many offers
D) Bring someone that has an emotional connection to the city or the Penguins. ERod for example is a realistic option at 3C.

So to get Bertuzzi you'd have to do (B). We'd probably have to offer like 6M per. He wouldn't be worth it in a PP2 role.
I could see Zucker taking 4 or 4.5M, based on his last few interviews. It just makes more sense in our situation.

Then you have to overpay in free agency. You don’t seem to have an issue paying Zucker until he’s 36 or 37, so why not pay a bit more for a younger player?

You can’t re-sign every gee dee player and expect different results. This team needs to take a chance every now and then; being afraid of change is what led to this disastrous season. Fear and laziness ruined this team, or was the narrative it was patience when sleepy was still here?

 

[pistolpete11]

Blueger had a bad season, but that doesn't diminish what he did in the years prior. He put up a 33point pace over the previous 4 years while getting 70%+ D-zone starts, no PP time, and was a +31. That's pretty damn good.

Now, was that worth paying a premium for? That's debatable, but for a team who had as piss poor of a bottom 6 as this team had this season, a 33point bottom 6 C sounds pretty good.

 

[Pens x]

Blueger had a bad season, but that doesn't diminish what he did in the years prior. He put up a 33point pace over the previous 4 years while getting 70%+ D-zone starts, no PP time, and was a +31. That's pretty damn good.

Now, was that worth paying a premium for? That's debatable, but for a team who had as piss poor of a bottom 6 as this team had this season, a 33point bottom 6 C sounds pretty good.

That was then - now he’s a healthy scratch.

 

[Andy99]

Someone else in his price range would have done worse in his role, outside of last year. That's what people don't get. His role was difficult, especially mentally. It's not a fun way to play.

There is no reason to believe Bertuzzi would choose us out of the many suitors he'll get. We have no leverage. "Coming to play with Sid or Geno" doesn't mean what it used to. The team's reputation is failing. 5 years without a series W. If you're Bertuzzi and you come here, that's like signing a document guaranteeing that you're not gonna win a Cup during the years you're with the team.
Where's the incentive? He'll get an offer from a current contender or a team on the rise. Seattle for example could swing it. Why go on the sinking ship instead?

To bring good pieces in our situation we have to:
A) Trade
B) Overpay free agents
C) Find sneaky upside guys that are off the radar and won't get many offers
D) Bring someone that has an emotional connection to the city or the Penguins. ERod for example is a realistic option at 3C.

So to get Bertuzzi you'd have to do (B). We'd probably have to offer like 6M per. He wouldn't be worth it in a PP2 role.
I could see Zucker taking 4 or 4.5M, based on his last few interviews. It just makes more sense in our situation.

I like A) and c) better than bringing back Zucker…he’s a regression candidate number one, and number two, I think a lot of our inability to hold leads had to do with our age…we have a much harder time sustaining the energy to forecheck hard in third periods and people were roaming free in our end….either we pick up the next Vasi who’s gonna stop all those high danger shots lol, or we have to get a lot younger and faster throughout the lineup

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Then you have to overpay in free agency. You don’t seem to have an issue paying Zucker until he’s 36 or 37, so why not pay a bit more for a younger player?

You can’t re-sign every gee dee player and expect different results. This team needs to take a chance every now and then; being afraid of change is what led to this disastrous season. Fear and laziness ruined this team, or was the narrative it was patience when sleepy was still here?

Because Zucker's contributions + 1.5 or 2M of spending on someone else would outweigh the sacrifice of spending 6M on Bertuzzi. It would give us a better chance of making the playoffs, at a time where we're underdogs to make it.
Zucker has good odds to be worth his AAV the next 2 seasons, which are the only ones we should be realistically concerned about. He has existing chemistry with Malkin, and he's one of our hardest workers. We have a pretty good sense of what to expect. Not the case with Bertuzzi at all.

Change for the sake of "not being lazy" is a ridiculous way to GM. You simply choose your best option, whether it's a returning player or a new one.
Subtracting a player who's already helping you in your weakest area doesn't make sense.

Plus for the people concerned about injuries with Zuck, Bertuzzi just missed 32 games last year, 14 the year before, and 47 the year before that.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I like A) and c) better than bringing back Zucker…he’s a regression candidate number one, and number two, I think a lot of our inability to hold leads had to do with our age…we have a much harder time sustaining the energy to forecheck hard in third periods and people were roaming free in our end….either we pick up the next Vasi who’s gonna stop all those high danger shots lol, or we have to get a lot younger and faster throughout the lineup

Sure, I'm open to Forward trade candidates. That's a more interesting discussion. I'd give a lot for Schmaltz for example.

I partially blame Sully and personnel deployment for our inability to hold leads in the dying minutes. At those times he should have relied heavily on the Archibald line (when available), not Carter's or Sid's. Archibald's L4s were our stingiest last year.
Then there's choosing the right D-pairings. You don't lean on Letang and Dumo there, who were having an awful year defensively.

I'm not sure I buy the age angle. It's more of a mindset. They willingly started turtling too early in 3rd periods. They played with the mindset not to lose instead of trying to win. Scared, with no confidence in their ability to seal it.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Because Zucker's contributions + 1.5 or 2M of spending on someone else would outweigh the sacrifice of spending 6M on Bertuzzi. It would give us a better chance of making the playoffs, at a time where we're underdogs to make it.
Zucker has good odds to be worth his AAV the next 2 seasons, which are the only ones we should be realistically concerned about. He has existing chemistry with Malkin, and he's one of our hardest workers. We have a pretty good sense of what to expect. Not the case with Bertuzzi at all.

Change for the sake of "not being lazy" is a ridiculous way to GM. You simply choose your best option, whether it's a returning player or a new one.
Subtracting a player who's already helping you in your weakest area doesn't make sense.

Plus for the people concerned about injuries with Zuck, Bertuzzi just missed 32 games last year, 14 the year before, and 47 the year before that.

Zucker of last year will probably never exist again. Zucker of last year didn't even exist in the previous three years. So it's unlikely if you bring him back you'll get the good version. Much better chance you get the injury-riddled player he's been for a long while. Even with the good version we didn't do anything with him there last year anyways, and his production fell off a cliff down the stretch. Most important to me, his defense is so awful it means there is only one place he can play on the team, and that's with Geno, whose problems he multiplies.

And that really screws any chance of us having balance up and down the lines. Zucker + Geno = terrible defensive line that needs the incredibly heavy sheltering they get. Geno always seems to follow his linemates in terms of their tendencies.

We need a dynamic winger for Geno that can actually play a two way game, and we have plenty of cap space to do it for once, and a more valuable 1st rounder than usual to get it done. I think that's where your trade assets need to go.

Upgrading on Petry is probably a pipe dream just because you can't get rid of his contract. Probably easier to get a good LHD for Letang and put Petts with him as others have suggested.

 

[Pens x]

Because Zucker's contributions + 1.5 or 2M of spending on someone else would outweigh the sacrifice of spending 6M on Bertuzzi. It would give us a better chance of making the playoffs, at a time where we're underdogs to make it.
Zucker has good odds to be worth his AAV the next 2 seasons, which are the only ones we should be realistically concerned about. He has existing chemistry with Malkin, and he's one of our hardest workers. We have a pretty good sense of what to expect. Not the case with Bertuzzi at all.

Change for the sake of "not being lazy" is a ridiculous way to GM. You simply choose your best option, whether it's a returning player or a new one.
Subtracting a player who's already helping you in your weakest area doesn't make sense.

Plus for the people concerned about injuries with Zuck, Bertuzzi just missed 32 games last year, 14 the year before, and 47 the year before that.

How are you not concerned Zucker turns into Rust 2.0? You think it’s a coincidence that Zucker magically didn’t have any injury issues in a contract year? You know damn well he will miss 40-50 games next year and score 15 points.

Move on. There are too many red flags. It’s like one good season erased all of his issues in the past.

Maybe you could take a chance on him if you didn’t have so many other bloated 30+ year old contracts on the books. I’m done signing guys on the wrong side of 30 to long term deals. Hextall is gone - we are allowed to pursue guys younger than 30s now.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Zucker of last year will probably never exist again. Zucker of last year didn't even exist in the previous three years. So it's unlikely if you bring him back you'll get the good version. Much better chance you get the injury-riddled player he's been for a long while. Even with the good version we didn't do anything with him there last year anyways, and his production fell off a cliff down the stretch.

He was a 2.06 5v5 P/P60 last year. His career rate is 1.78.
So in terms of points, a realistic projection for next year is to subtract ~15% of what he did this year, with a smaller ratio of goals.
If he had the exact same role again, you could expect 20G 21A or so if he played 75+. However, we were very lucky with health in the top 6. He may be replacing someone on PP1 next year and cashing in there a bit.
Or he may finally break through in Reirden's eyes and just earn a spot straight up.

Regarding his own health, his core muscle injury healed. That's what was nagging him all of 2021-22. It's clearly behind him, and not a concern moving forward.
Besides, anyone we bring will also get hurt. That's how it always goes here, unless you're Phil Kessel. So I'm not too worried about that angle of the equation.

Most important to me, his defense is so awful it means there is only one place he can play on the team, and that's with Geno, whose problems he multiplies.

And that really screws any chance of us having balance up and down the lines. Zucker + Geno = terrible defensive line that needs the incredibly heavy sheltering they get. Geno always seems to follow his linemates in terms of their tendencies.

We need a dynamic winger for Geno that can actually play a two way game, and we have plenty of cap space to do it for once, and a more valuable 1st rounder than usual to get it done. I think that's where your trade assets need to go.

Then Bertuzzi is not the answer. He's even worse defensively than Zucker defensively. Need to look elsewhere.
But what you said is a big reason why I want to see Nylander on L2 to start the season. His defensive metrics were excellent there. He stabilized them, as hard as that is to believe with what we were expecting from him going in. His ES scoring rate at the NHL level is comparable to Zucker and Rakell's anyway. You probably won't lose too much in terms of offense.

 

[Pancakes]

I like Zucker a lot but he's 31 and he's small and his game is built on speed. And has dealt with injuries.

All of those things make me very leery of bringing him back.

Maybe the injury part was just bad luck but I also think that if you take this year out of the equation there would be absolutely zero question about whether or not we would bring Zucker back. Nobody wanted any part of him a year ago.

If he's willing to come back for like 4.5/3 years or something, I'd take that, but I don't know that he would. If he wants money and term, the Pens probably shouldn't be the one to give that to him.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

How are you not concerned Zucker turns into Rust 2.0?

You mean 46 points Rust? The guy that was arguably our best defensive forward since New Year's? Him?
Yeah I'm fine with Zucker turning into that. That's what players of his price range in his role provide.

You think it’s a coincidence that Zucker magically didn’t have any injury issues in a contract year?

No, it wasn't a coincidence. It was a core muscle injury healing over the summer, allowing him to skate properly again the following year and get confidence off that. The effort level was always there with Zucker.
The "contract year" effort thing is a fallacy a lot of the time. Heinen had one. Kap had one last year. Blueger had one this year. Dumoulin had one this year.
It didn't help their performance at all.

 

[Andy99]

So when is Sid going to step down as de facto GM so we can fire Sullivan and trade Jake? Saw another article about Jake going nowhere else for the rest of his career lol

 

[AuroraBorealis]

So when is Sid going to step down as de facto GM so we can fire Sullivan and trade Jake? Saw another article about Jake going nowhere else for the rest of his career lol

I could see Sully being in real trouble if the team sucks at the 20-30 game mark, assuming they choose the right GM.
FSG were pretty clear on giving the new GM the authority to do what he wants.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I like Zucker a lot but he's 31 and he's small and his game is built on speed. And has dealt with injuries.

All of those things make me very leery of bringing him back.

Maybe the injury part was just bad luck but I also think that if you take this year out of the equation there would be absolutely zero question about whether or not we would bring Zucker back. Nobody wanted any part of him a year ago.

If he's willing to come back for like 4.5/3 years or something, I'd take that, but I don't know that he would. If he wants money and term, the Pens probably shouldn't be the one to give that to him.

Then his replacement will have to come through trade. You'd be paying a significant asset to get a marginal improvement, if you're lucky.
Bertuzzi is not the answer if you're worried about injuries. He's more injury prone than Zucker.
The only other good UFA suggestion I've heard here is Bunting, and you'll have to overpay for him. He'll be worse than he was in Toronto too. He took 55 more PIMs than Zucker this season.

There is nothing to fear with Zucker getting term. The team's toast by year 3 of his contract. His contract will expire when other guys come off the books, and they can rebuild properly at that time.
All we need is 2 good years from him.

 

[molon labe]

Every other coach gets fired at the seasons end. Only here do we have to say, well maybe if we close one eye and squint the other....oh wait, nothing still? Well it's Christmas time so I guess we can finally let the guy go. The previous five seasons are irrelevant because we're new.

Gallant got 2 years and frankly got more out of that Rangers team than I'd have expected. Dude is 'fired' after 2 years of mostly winning hockey.

It's been almost 6 calendar years since Sully was even relevant. Either he's got nudes of the front office, is best friends with the core, or our management is genuinely lazy. Zero reason to give that guy one more single game behind the bench. Ludicrous. Should be new managements very first action before even putting the family picture on the desk.

 

[Pens1566]

If you're discussing a "name" UFA coming in, I think you're probably wasting your time. The last time that happened was probably Paul Martin. We're just not an attractive destination for any number of reasons.

 

[Daeni10]

Blueger was always heavily overvalued by this forum. He's a dime a dozen guy, and every franchise has several similar players. None of them are special.

This is every single one of our young players

 

[Pens x]

Every other coach gets fired at the seasons end. Only here do we have to say, well maybe if we close one eye and squint the other....oh wait, nothing still? Well it's Christmas time so I guess we can finally let the guy go. The previous five seasons are irrelevant because we're new.

Gallant got 2 years and frankly got more out of that Rangers team than I'd have expected. Dude is 'fired' after 2 years of mostly winning hockey.

It's been almost 6 calendar years since Sully was even relevant. Either he's got nudes of the front office, is best friends with the core, or our management is genuinely lazy. Zero reason to give that guy one more single game behind the bench. Ludicrous. Should be new managements very first action before even putting the family picture on the desk.

It really is insane that Sullivan is still here.

Gallant made it the eastern conference finals last year and lost in a game 7 to a solid team this season.

Sullivan blew a 3-1 series lead and didn’t make the playoffs the next season.

Which one should have been fired?

FSG sucks. All of their teams are in the gutter. Hurry, throw another meaningless conference to fool fans into thinking you know what you are doing with this team. Something something analytics something.

 

[Jacob]

Gotta overpay to get any UFA. In both cap hit and term. You just have to factor in if that’s worth it or if giving up assets in a trade is better.

 

[Pens x]

I agree that we’ll have to overpay free agents, but what else can you do with you have limited assets to trade? Putting your hands up to say we can’t do anything isn’t acceptable. That loser mentality should go away after dumbass Hextall was finally let go.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

There is nothing to fear with Zucker getting term. The team's toast by year 3 of his contract. His contract will expire when other guys come off the books, and they can rebuild properly at that time.
All we need is 2 good years from him.

I don't know why you're convinced it's a lock we'll get 2 good years out of Zucker. Last year was the first year we actually got a good year out of him. Before that he was a combination of injured/missing games and not producing like a top six forward.

So my fear with Zucker isn't even whether he'll be worth his money in Year 4 and Year 5 of the contract, it's whether he'll be worth his money in Year 1 and Year 2 when Sid and Geno can still play at a high level.

Because the thing is we can't afford to have him drop to being a 18-20 goal, 35-40 point guy. The entire reason him and Geno worked last year was because Zucker produced at an almost 30 goal, 50 point pace. Dropping 10 goals from that total isn't something I want to see back, especially when you factor in age and injury history on top of that.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Sign Barbashev and Bertuzzi.

‘Tis would make a great summer.