Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't think much of DOC, but I'd prefer his size and skating to Nylander in a bottom-6 (4th line) role.

Agree that Puustinen should be the top of the list for guys getting a long look in camp and pre-season. His shot could be a real asset in the middle-6, assuming he doesn't bomb it in camp/pre-season.

 

[SEALBound]

You’re missing my point.

We’ve focused on “Jack of all trade” players with our assets rather than focusing on actual needs. We focused on players that put up top six numbers in top six usage.

Instead we need to be spending assets on players that are game changers. Since JR I look at the types like Mark Stone, Ryan McDonagh, etc that have moved for prices we paid for Zucker, Brassard, etc.

If we aren’t doing that and this isn’t hindsight I’ve been saying it for four years is we need to focus on players that play defined roles in our bottom six. It’s why I’m not high on the Nylander signing. Nylanders in our bottom six has been a trend for four years. Spend the assets we waste on Granlund, Kapanen, etc and get a piece like a Coleman, Paul, or Jeannot.

If you are going to focus on building a defensive bottom six whose goal is to keep the ice even when our are stars on it focus on making a bottom six that punishes the other team and can actually play those minutes effectively.

There is no definition of roles on this team anymore. It’s just a bunch of “all situational” players that can’t play any situations great:

Where exactly was Mark Stone's $9.5mil x 7yr deal going to fit in? Salary cap exists. Which McDonagh trade are you referring to? When he was traded in 18 or the recent one? IIRC, JR was "in" on him in 2018 but you have the roadblock of an in-division trade. The recent one, who cares? We couldn't have taken on his cap hit anyway.

Coleman I get, but at the time he was strictly a third-line player and everyone thought the Lightning overpaid. Looking at the trade/signing, Calgary is paying $4.9mil for a 30-40pt player. You talk about spending assets on game-changers yet you advocate for Coleman, Paul, and Jeannot - the very definition of "not a game-changer". Coleman is objectively worse than Zucker in nearly every metric. But for some reason, Coleman trade is the direction we should be going in...but not Zucker.

Nick Paul's stat line:
2021-22 Ottawa Senators 59 11 7 18
2021-22 Tampa Bay Lightning 21 5 9 14 4 17 | PLAYOFFS 23 5 4 9 0 6
2022-23 Tampa Bay Lightning 80 17 15 32 11 33

And they are giving him $3.125mil to be a 30pt guy and be a complete non-factor in the playoffs.

Let's not even get started on the Jeannot trade which thus far has been a disaster for Tampa.

So in reality, we did spend assets on guys like you suggested. It's just that, in hindsight, they didn't perform as well as we'd hope. So don't feed me this line of BS about not evaluating everything in hindsight. You're advocating using our assets on the same guys we did just "oh...but not THOSE guys...I wanted THESE guys!" Take a walk.

 

[Gurglesons]

Where exactly was Mark Stone's $9.5mil x 7yr deal going to fit in? Salary cap exists. Which McDonagh trade are you referring to? When he was traded in 18 or the recent one? IIRC, JR was "in" on him in 2018 but you have the roadblock of an in-division trade. The recent one, who cares? We couldn't have taken on his cap hit anyway.

Coleman I get, but at the time he was strictly a third-line player and everyone thought the Lightning overpaid. Looking at the trade/signing, Calgary is paying $4.9mil for a 30-40pt player. You talk about spending assets on game-changers yet you advocate for Coleman, Paul, and Jeannot - the very definition of "not a game-changer". Coleman is objectively worse than Zucker in nearly every metric. But for some reason, Coleman trade is the direction we should be going in...but not Zucker.

Nick Paul's stat line:
2021-22 Ottawa Senators 59 11 7 18
2021-22 Tampa Bay Lightning 21 5 9 14 4 17 | PLAYOFFS 23 5 4 9 0 6
2022-23 Tampa Bay Lightning 80 17 15 32 11 33

And they are giving him $3.125mil to be a 30pt guy and be a complete non-factor in the playoffs.

Let's not even get started on the Jeannot trade which thus far has been a disaster for Tampa.

So in reality, we did spend assets on guys like you suggested. It's just that, in hindsight, they didn't perform as well as we'd hope. So don't feed me this line of BS about not evaluating everything in hindsight. You're advocating using our assets on the same guys we did just "oh...but not THOSE guys...I wanted THESE guys!" Take a walk.

You make cap to afford players like Mark Stone. Not to mention he was not on that deal when he was moved.

I’m not advocating in hindsight. I criticized the Zucker deal for being too much for a player that was nearly moved for a 1st and Frolik at the time and was advocating for Coleman prior to that trade occurring. Not really sure what about Paul’s numbers is not working out for 3 mil. We’d kill for that type of production from some of our 3 mil dollar players the past few years in the playoffs.

Seems like we just aren’t going to agree here. Guess the Penguins just continue to make “good moves” and they don’t work out.

 

[chethejet]

If you make the assumption Granlund is gone and his cap, then Pens have cap space to add a couple nice pieces if they can. The GM hire is the most important hire since Craig Patrick. If the GM can see the holes and insist that this is what the Pens will look like and play like. Sully has to adjust and buy into change. Add a physical LD, a goalie, Carter is in LA cap hit aside and DOC, Poehling, Nylander play more prominent roles. Maybe Poulin can emerge here as 4th line center so smurf hockey is gone and Pens have size and add a grit player or two and then see what happens. Zucker is a tough one as his availability for the term is just so suspect.

 

[SEALBound]

I don't think much of DOC, but I'd prefer his size and skating to Nylander in a bottom-6 (4th line) role.

Agree that Puustinen should be the top of the list for guys getting a long look in camp and pre-season. His shot could be a real asset in the middle-6, assuming he doesn't bomb it in camp/pre-season.

About 3/4 of the way through the season, something seemed to click with DOC. He was using his size a lot more, he was being super aggressive on the forecheck, and was making things happen. So while his first half of the season was pedestrian at best, I am willing to see how he does. Worst case, he's a great 4LW.

With Puustinen, I wouldn't hate if they tried to balance the lineup the way they did in 2016 with Sheary up top with Sid which allowed Kunitz to be with Geno and Hagelin on the 3rd line (granted it was HBK but still).

If you could get a guy like Puustinen to work with the top line, you can drop Guentzel down and even drop Granlund down. If you resign Zucker, you could even build a third line around that - you just can't have Carter as your 3C.

I wonder if we could swing a deal with Ottawa for Shane Pinto. Ottawa has cap room but they have a bunch of guys to resign, need a couple dmen, and new goalies so not sure if they have the space to commit long-term to him. They also have nothing in the 2023 draft until the 4th round.

You make cap to afford players like Mark Stone. Not to mention he was not on that deal when he was moved.

I’m not advocating in hindsight. I criticized the Zucker deal for being too much for a player that was nearly moved for a 1st and Frolik at the time and was advocating for Coleman prior to that trade occurring. Not really sure what about Paul’s numbers is not working out for 3 mil. We’d kill for that type of production from some of our 3 mil dollar players the past few years in the playoffs.

Seems like we just aren’t going to agree here. Guess the Penguins just continue to make “good moves” and they don’t work out.

Stone was making, what, $7.3mil at the time which doesn't change what I said. Everyone knew he was going to get that extension too otherwise, why spend the assets? That said, I would have loved to have Stone but the cap is a thing.

Paul put up similar numbers to Kapanen. Zucker has been a better producer his entire career vs Coleman. We can agree to disagree all day but that's not going to stop me from calling you on BS like "Oh, a Nick Paul or Coleman trade would have been so good while a deal like Zucker or Kapanen were bad! We shouldn't spend assets on middling players, we should spend them on middling players like Nick Paul and Coleman!"

We all wanted Jeannot until we saw the price tag, then it was a hard no.

Nick Paul had 1 point in 6 games. He has 9 in 23 last year. It's more or less what Rust brought at 800k in 16/17. It's hardly special. It's about what Kapanen did.

 

[Gurglesons]

About 3/4 of the way through the season, something seemed to click with DOC. He was using his size a lot more, he was being super aggressive on the forecheck, and was making things happen. So while his first half of the season was pedestrian at best, I am willing to see how he does. Worst case, he's a great 4LW.

With Puustinen, I wouldn't hate if they tried to balance the lineup the way they did in 2016 with Sheary up top with Sid which allowed Kunitz to be with Geno and Hagelin on the 3rd line (granted it was HBK but still).

If you could get a guy like Puustinen to work with the top line, you can drop Guentzel down and even drop Granlund down. If you resign Zucker, you could even build a third line around that - you just can't have Carter as your 3C.

I wonder if we could swing a deal with Ottawa for Shane Pinto. Ottawa has cap room but they have a bunch of guys to resign, need a couple dmen, and new goalies so not sure if they have the space to commit long-term to him. They also have nothing in the 2023 draft until the 4th round.

Stone was making, what, $7.3mil at the time which doesn't change what I said. Everyone knew he was going to get that extension too otherwise, why spend the assets? That said, I would have loved to have Stone but the cap is a thing.

Paul put up similar numbers to Kapanen. Zucker has been a better producer his entire career vs Coleman. We can agree to disagree all day but that's not going to stop me from calling you on BS like "Oh, a Nick Paul or Coleman trade would have been so good while a deal like Zucker or Kapanen were bad! We shouldn't spend assets on middling players, we should spend them on middling players like Nick Paul and Coleman!"

We all wanted Jeannot until we saw the price tag, then it was a hard no.

Nick Paul had 1 point in 6 games. He has 9 in 23 last year. It's more or less what Rust brought at 800k in 16/17. It's hardly special. It's about what Kapanen did.

It isn’t about points. That’s where you are failing to grasp what I’m getting at. Paul, Coleman, Jeannot bring a skill set we desperately lack.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

At this point I'd rather use Puustinen as part of a deal to get a slightly older, different style of player for the top nine rather than try to squeeze yet another smallish, finesse player into the lineup.

If the Pens are lucky, Puustinen is just another Sheary. While there is value in that, it's not what they need.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah Puustinen is fine but I don't really see what he adds to the lineup. If Sullivan is going to be the coach, they need to build the bottom-6 to fit how the bottom-6 is going to be used. Puustinen absolutely does not fit that.

The 4th line should be O'Connor-Poehling-Carter next year, mostly because Carter isn't going anywhere. The 3rd line should be completely revamped and built to suit the ultra defensive usage that Sullivan uses his 3rd line in.

 

[SEALBound]

It isn’t about points. That’s where you are failing to grasp what I’m getting at. Paul, Coleman, Jeannot bring a skill set we desperately lack.

What does Paul bring that we don't have?

Coleman brings what Zucker brings.

We are indeed missing Jeannot, I'll give you that, but we probably don't miss it enough to pay what Tampa paid and get meagher production and a HS in the playoffs.

 

[Gurglesons]

What does Paul bring that we don't have?

Coleman brings what Zucker brings.

We are indeed missing Jeannot, I'll give you that, but we probably don't miss it enough to pay what Tampa paid and get meagher production and a HS in the playoffs.

Coleman and Zucker are incredibly different players.

Nick Paul is 6’3. Do we have someone that is 6’3 and a bottom six defensive specialist I missed?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Coleman and Zucker are incredibly different players.

Nick Paul is 6’3. Do we have someone that is 6’3 and a bottom six defensive specialist I missed?

I don't agree with you on Jeannot but I do agree with you on Paul and Cole. Paul would be an especially amazing 3rd line addition, he fits exactly how Sullivan wants to use that line.

I understand the hype with Jeannott but I think it's totally unwarranted. He rode a crazy unsustainable shooting% last year and Tampa drank the kool-aid and grossly overpaid for him. I'd much rather have Paul than him.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

I like Ross Colton.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't agree with you on Jeannot but I do agree with you on Paul and Cole. Paul would be an especially amazing 3rd line addition, he fits exactly how Sullivan wants to use that line.

I understand the hype with Jeannott but I think it's totally unwarranted. He rode a crazy unsustainable shooting% last year and Tampa drank the kool-aid and grossly overpaid for him. I'd much rather have Paul than him.

My point is just the type of players that make difference away from the puck when they aren’t scoring. I’ve called for it for four consecutive seasons and while Carter and Rakell were good additions they didn’t add that element.

And Jeannot was fine in Tampa he was hurt.

 

[Gurglesons]

double

 

[Pancakes]

My point is just the type of players that make difference away from the puck when they aren’t scoring. I’ve called for it for four consecutive seasons and while Carter and Rakell were good additions they didn’t add that element.

And Jeannot was fine in Tampa he was hurt.

I'd at least like our bottom six to bring one type of element lol. This year our bottom six both didn't score and was easy to play against.

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah Puustinen is fine but I don't really see what he adds to the lineup. If Sullivan is going to be the coach, they need to build the bottom-6 to fit how the bottom-6 is going to be used. Puustinen absolutely does not fit that.

The 4th line should be O'Connor-Poehling-Carter next year, mostly because Carter isn't going anywhere. The 3rd line should be completely revamped and built to suit the ultra defensive usage that Sullivan uses his 3rd line in.

Which is why Sullivan needs to be gone or take a long look in the mirror and get back to his pre-stubborn ways.

2016 - HBK
2017/18 - Mixture, tough to pin down
2019 - They start the year with Simon-Brassard-Rust

After that, it's been a shitshow of leftovers. Sullivan was willing to build a use speedy, skilled third lines. Just baffles me that he reverted to a "defensive line with shitty defensive players" mentality.

With that, we can absolutely build a good third line in FA. There are a couple third line players we could target. I've been advocating for Wood and Athanasiou. Put Poehling at 3C and you can have a line whose identity is speed and up-tempo play.

 

[Pancakes]

Which is why Sullivan needs to be gone or take a long look in the mirror and get back to his pre-stubborn ways.

2016 - HBK
2017/18 - Mixture, tough to pin down
2019 - They start the year with Simon-Brassard-Rust

After that, it's been a shitshow of leftovers. Sullivan was willing to build a use speedy, skilled third lines. Just baffles me that he reverted to a "defensive line with shitty defensive players" mentality.

With that, we can absolutely build a good third line in FA. There are a couple third line players we could target. I've been advocating for Wood and Athanasiou. Put Poehling at 3C and you can have a line whose identity is speed and up-tempo play.

The GM needs to take it out of Sullivan's hands by providing him a good mix of players. At that point the worst he can do is put together sketchy line combinations. But it'll be a lot harder to f*** it up.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Which is why Sullivan needs to be gone or take a long look in the mirror and get back to his pre-stubborn ways.

2016 - HBK
2017/18 - Mixture, tough to pin down
2019 - They start the year with Simon-Brassard-Rust

After that, it's been a shitshow of leftovers. Sullivan was willing to build a use speedy, skilled third lines. Just baffles me that he reverted to a "defensive line with shitty defensive players" mentality.

With that, we can absolutely build a good third line in FA. There are a couple third line players we could target. I've been advocating for Wood and Athanasiou. Put Poehling at 3C and you can have a line whose identity is speed and up-tempo play.

No, I don't agree with this. I don't have a problem with how Sullivan wants to use his bottom-6, the problem was that Hextall and JR did a terrible job at providing the kind of player that fit how Sullivan wants to use that line.

The Penguins 4th line of ZAR-Blueger-Tanev was built exactly how Sullivan wants to use his bottom-6 lines and it was a super effective line because of it. Upgrade on ZAR and I think a line of that makeup would be a perfectly suitable 3rd line.

 

[Pancakes]

No, I don't agree with this. I don't have a problem with how Sullivan wants to use his bottom-6, the problem was that Hextall and JR did a terrible job at providing the kind of player that fit how Sullivan wants to use that line.

The Penguins 4th line of ZAR-Blueger-Tanev was built exactly how Sullivan wants to use his bottom-6 lines and it was a super effective line because of it. Upgrade on ZAR and I think a line of that makeup would be a perfectly suitable 3rd line.

Yeah I mean does anyone really want Crosby or Malkin taking those d-zone shifts? Look how gassed and run down they looked by the end of the season. Even aside from that, what are we gonna do, give Jeff Carter more o-zone starts? Why in the hell would Sullivan do that? So we can score even less?

I want a bottom six full of DOCs. Give me big fast forechecking guys who can chip in some offense and who can handle shitty minutes and do alright with them. Then let Sid and Geno take the easy minutes and rack up goals for us and be fresh for the playoffs.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Yeah I mean does anyone really want Crosby or Malkin taking those d-zone shifts? Look how gassed and run down they looked by the end of the season. Even aside from that, what are we gonna do, give Jeff Carter more o-zone starts? Why in the hell would Sullivan do that? So we can score even less?

I want a bottom six full of DOCs. Give me big fast forechecking guys who can chip in some offense and who can handle shitty minutes and do alright with them. Then let Sid and Geno take the easy minutes and rack up goals for us and be fresh for the playoffs.

DOC's offense is crap though. His size and speed isn't actually leading to much for him or his linemates. We keep waiting on that to change. He doesn't PK or PP.
People just admire the way his game looks. We need the end product above all else. This year made that super clear.

What's wrong with giving L3 or L4 more O-zone starts when the top 6 are flat and they're not?
We know what happens when the top six are lifeless. They make sloppy O-zone decisions and get toasted on the counter-attack, with their questionable backchecking. In those games if they start in the D-zone at least they'll know their role at the faceoff and have some structure defensively. They'll get used to not having such privileged usage and improve 2-way.

You have to give the bottom-six a chance to contribute offensively. We just saw what happens if you don't. Getting 80% D-zone starts is a great way to kill players spirits. There's no enjoyment in that.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah I mean does anyone really want Crosby or Malkin taking those d-zone shifts? Look how gassed and run down they looked by the end of the season. Even aside from that, what are we gonna do, give Jeff Carter more o-zone starts? Why in the hell would Sullivan do that? So we can score even less?

I want a bottom six full of DOCs. Give me big fast forechecking guys who can chip in some offense and who can handle shitty minutes and do alright with them. Then let Sid and Geno take the easy minutes and rack up goals for us and be fresh for the playoffs.

Yeah using random players, my ideal 3rd line is something like 2017 Bonino at center with Paul and Tanev on the wings. It’s very much more of a grinder defensive line, but they all have some decent offensive punch and should be able to give you 35-40 points in a 3rd line role.

The one negative of that is you don’t really have a guy who can step into the top-6 in case of an injury. But that’s actually a kind of role where I think Puustinen fits, he’s either a top-6 player or a healthy scratch.

 

[SEALBound]

No, I don't agree with this. I don't have a problem with how Sullivan wants to use his bottom-6, the problem was that Hextall and JR did a terrible job at providing the kind of player that fit how Sullivan wants to use that line.

The Penguins 4th line of ZAR-Blueger-Tanev was built exactly how Sullivan wants to use his bottom-6 lines and it was a super effective line because of it. Upgrade on ZAR and I think a line of that makeup would be a perfectly suitable 3rd line.

I have no issues if they want to build a 4th line that can be relied on for heavy defensive use. In fact, I encourage us to build a 4th line that can do that but at the same time be relied upon to skate more than 5min a game.

I want to get away from the
Scoring Line 1
Scoring Line 2
Defensive Line
Checking/Energy line that provides 5min a game with little to no production.

That is the structure we ran from 2008-2015 and without Sid and Geno going gangbusters, it's never yielded the results we want. I've been advocating for:
Scoring 1
Scoring 2
Scoring lite 3
Defensive line 4

Now if the defensive line needs to take more time at the expense of the scoring lite line, fine. It's just that the other line needs to provide more production than the likes of ZBT or DOC-Bleuger-Archibald. Otherwise, we are 2014/2015 Pens all day long with "we have two lines that try not to get scored on while Sid and Geno get a breather".

So we don't disagree necessarily, I'm just saying whichever line you don't build as the defensive line, needs to have better, more capable players to provide scoring and NOT go the route of "Oh, let's sign Archibald because he provides energy".

Yeah I mean does anyone really want Crosby or Malkin taking those d-zone shifts? Look how gassed and run down they looked by the end of the season. Even aside from that, what are we gonna do, give Jeff Carter more o-zone starts? Why in the hell would Sullivan do that? So we can score even less?

I want a bottom six full of DOCs. Give me big fast forechecking guys who can chip in some offense and who can handle shitty minutes and do alright with them. Then let Sid and Geno take the easy minutes and rack up goals for us and be fresh for the playoffs.

Hockey is played at both ends. Sure, give Sid and Geno the o-zone starts but it's not like they won't get some defensive zone assignments. Quite often teams match up their best against them so why does it matter? And realistically, what % of line changes happen at the whistle vs on the fly? This zone start metric is about as useful as +/- when you break it down. I suggest we build a lineup that allows us to roll 4 lines and let the other team worry about the match ups. That also comes with a "put a f***ing defensive zone system in place and hold players accountable for playing defense".

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah I mean does anyone really want Crosby or Malkin taking those d-zone shifts? Look how gassed and run down they looked by the end of the season. Even aside from that, what are we gonna do, give Jeff Carter more o-zone starts? Why in the hell would Sullivan do that? So we can score even less?

I want a bottom six full of DOCs. Give me big fast forechecking guys who can chip in some offense and who can handle shitty minutes and do alright with them. Then let Sid and Geno take the easy minutes and rack up goals for us and be fresh for the playoffs.

You can’t build your bottom six out of players who don’t contribute anything if they don’t score which we’ve done frequently since 2018.

 

[K Fleur]

Pens bottom 6 has been just a bunch of dudes skating around doing…nothing for like 5 years.

 

[Gurglesons]

Pens bottom 6 has been just a bunch of dudes skating around doing…nothing for like 5 years.

Nah they are “sticking to it”