Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[BigEezyE22]

Meh I think this place is too hard on Jarry. He had a bad year last year but he has gotten Vezina votes in 2 different seasons. I don't think he is as risky as acquiring someone like Gibson or Hill.

Votes from whom though?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Considering how barren the market seems to be... there is some sense, there. But I dunno... I'm not saying change for the sake of change is good. But I do think they need some shakeups at key positions and goaltender is probably at the top of my list. Maybe your method would achieve the same results but I get the feeling that that backup better be ready for some critical starts.

That's why I keep using Varlamov as an example. Career .919 save% in 60 playoff games and has been a consistently good goalie for a long time.

My questions with Jarry start with his health. That aside, I don't think he's been any worse than most of the goalies available, and is better than a few.

But health included, he's been super unreliable.

I think what it comes down to in this discussion is that Jarry has been super unreliable, but is the solution there replacing Jarry or giving a better alternative to Jarry than DeSmith?

I think the more ideal solution is upgrading on Jarry, but I don't think there really are many upgrades on Jarry available beyond Hellebuyck. Everyone has their own issues or red flags IMO.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think the more ideal solution is upgrading on Jarry, but I don't think there really are many upgrades on Jarry available beyond Hellebuyck. Everyone has their own issues or red flags IMO.

To be fair... that's just goaltending in general for ya.

 

[Empoleon8771]

To be fair... that's just goaltending in general for ya.

In that case, why wouldn't you want to try to get multiple good goalies then? If you think goaltending is generally a crapshoot, I think that's more of an argument for going with Jarry-Varlamov over trying to find an actual upgrade on Jarry.

 

[Andy99]

Honestly I'd keep Jarry if you could get him for something like 3 years at $5 million a year. I think you could possibly get him to sign that for the same reason Gavrikov just signed his deal with the Kings: gamble on the cap rising a lot in the next few years.

Jarry is still pretty young after all, he's only 28. If he takes a shorter term deal to help rebuild his value a bit, he'll still come out as a UFA at only age 31 or so. I don't see any problems with paying $8 million between a Jarry and Varlamov goalie tandem, for example. You just need to get a very good 1B goalie to platoon with Jarry, rather than a pure backup like DeSmith.

Reportedly said today during Friedman's 32 Thoughts podcast:

“I heard (Tristan) Jarry when they were talking during the season he wanted some term, like 5-6 years, so I don’t know where that’s going to go”

 

[Pancakes]

Desmith is fine imo. His backup performance has been good enough. He's not a starter, and we can't rely on him to be one, but that's why you don't bring Jarry back.

I'd rather go out and get a legitimate good starter and use Desmith as a backup rather than rely on a 1A/1B situation. If we're gonna pay out for goaltending, just get a star number one...if you can.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

A bit scary to think of huh?

Especially considering who was taken 3rd OA and how much buzz surrounded him at the time.

Probably would've selected Gilbert Brule.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I think what it comes down to in this discussion is that Jarry has been super unreliable, but is the solution there replacing Jarry or giving a better alternative to Jarry than DeSmith?

I think the more ideal solution is upgrading on Jarry, but I don't think there really are many upgrades on Jarry available beyond Hellebuyck. Everyone has their own issues or red flags IMO.

Do you think the dollars committed to upgrading CDS will yield an appreciably better performance/player? Seems like the extra dollars might get you an extra win or two. I realize this past season we'd say "yea it's worth it". But over the long haul, I'm not sure it's a wise use of cap space.

CDS is inline with how a backup should be expected to perform. He's actually a very good value when you factor in his contract.

 

[Peat]

Considering how barren the market seems to be... there is some sense, there. But I dunno... I'm not saying change for the sake of change is good. But I do think they need some shakeups at key positions and goaltender is probably at the top of my list. Maybe your method would achieve the same results but I get the feeling that that backup better be ready for some critical starts.

Is the market really that barren?

Free agency smells a bit, per usual, but Korpisaalo, Adin Hill, Raanta, and Varlamov can all be part of a solution.

And trade wise it seems unusually flush. Hellebuyck, one of Ullmark and Swayman, Gibson, maybe Hart, maybe Filip Gustavsson. Maybe Markstrom? I feel like there's a few names floating around.

They're not fantastic options, but there's options.

I think what it comes down to in this discussion is that Jarry has been super unreliable, but is the solution there replacing Jarry or giving a better alternative to Jarry than DeSmith?

I think the more ideal solution is upgrading on Jarry, but I don't think there really are many upgrades on Jarry available beyond Hellebuyck. Everyone has their own issues or red flags IMO.

The answer to that starts with his medical. If it's telling you he's just been real unlucky and he should be fine going forwards, maybe it's a better alternative. If it's telling you this is his normal, then there's a lot of upgrades.

 

[Gurglesons]

Do you think the dollars committed to upgrading CDS will yield an appreciably better performance/player? Seems like the extra dollars might get you an extra win or two. I realize this past season we'd say "yea it's worth it". But over the long haul, I'm not sure it's a wise use of cap space.

CDS is inline with how a backup should be expected to perform. He's actually a very good value when you factor in his contract.

Yes.

Is the market really that barren?

Free agency smells a bit, per usual, but Korpisaalo, Adin Hill, Raanta, and Varlamov can all be part of a solution.

And trade wise it seems unusually flush. Hellebuyck, one of Ullmark and Swayman, Gibson, maybe Hart, maybe Filip Gustavsson. Maybe Markstrom? I feel like there's a few names floating around.

They're not fantastic options, but there's options.



The answer to that starts with his medical. If it's telling you he's just been real unlucky and he should be fine going forwards, maybe it's a better alternative. If it's telling you this is his normal, then there's a lot of upgrades.

If you want a proven # 1 goaltender that costs you nothing Jarry is the only one that is youngish and proven.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Desmith is fine imo. His backup performance has been good enough. He's not a starter, and we can't rely on him to be one, but that's why you don't bring Jarry back.

I'd rather go out and get a legitimate good starter and use Desmith as a backup rather than rely on a 1A/1B situation. If we're gonna pay out for goaltending, just get a star number one...if you can.

I agree with you that is the better solution, but again, who is that guy?

I'd rather somehow clone 2015 Fleury and have the goalie tandem be him and DeSmith. But it's just who is out there that can actually be that?

Do you think the dollars committed to upgrading CDS will yield an appreciably better performance/player? Seems like the extra dollars might get you an extra win or two. I realize this past season we'd say "yea it's worth it". But over the long haul, I'm not sure it's a wise use of cap space.

CDS is inline with how a backup should be expected to perform. He's actually a very good value when you factor in his contract.

Yes, very easily.

DeSmith has also been completely unavailable in the playoffs in each of 2021 and 2022. Jarry sucked in 2021 of course, but what made that series so disastrous is that they didn't have a legitimate alternative to DeSmith because DeSmith couldn't stay healthy. Then DeSmith got hurt again in 2022.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

In that case, why wouldn't you want to try to get multiple good goalies then? If you think goaltending is generally a crapshoot, I think that's more of an argument for going with Jarry-Varlamov over trying to find an actual upgrade on Jarry.

I'd go with Korpisalo and one of Varlamov/Andersen/Raanta.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Probably would've selected Gilbert Brule.

Man is this ever a trip down memory lane. Crazy names out there:

2005 NHL entry draft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[tom_servo]

Yeah I think Patrick was in an impossible position in the 2001-2004 era, but he also did a pretty horrendous job at managing the Penguins assets over that window.

Like look at these trades:

-Jagr for Beech, Lupaschuk and Sivek
-Kasparaitis for Berry and Nieminen
-Ference for a 3rd
-Kovalev for Fata, Lintner, Samuelsson and Bouchard
-Hrdina for Abid, Focht and Lefebvre
-Straka for Anshakov and Strbak
-Berehowsky for Jackman (honestly, I never realized Berehowsky played for the Penguins)

Pretty much all of these trades were the Penguins giving up a legitimate NHLer for nothing. Ference for a 3rd was especially egregious, Ference was a 23 year old defensemen on a team with an awful defense and they ditched him for a 3rd rounder that didn't pan out.

Samuelsson in the Kovalev deal is the only player in these trades that actually was an effective player in the NHL, but he was then moved in the deal to trade up for the Fleury pick.

None of those trades mean anything. Pens were over a barrel, literally in crisis mode. We as fans were forged in that fire. We came out stronger, wiser, wittier, whinier. Our collective sardonicism was honed in those years.

Also, that was Berehowsky's second stint in Pittsburgh. He was my first acquisition in NHL '95.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'd go with Korpisalo and one of Varlamov/Andersen/Raanta.

Yeah this would be another one of the 1A/1B tandem options I'm talking about with Jarry. I'm not as sold on Korpisalo being a 1A as I am with Jarry, though. Korpisalo's track record before this year isn't.....great, to put it lightly.

Korpisalo-Varlamov is something I've advocated for in the past, so I wouldn't complain about that at all if that's the route they go. I'd just probably feel a bit more comfortable with Jarry there, unless Korpisalo would be notably cheaper than Jarry.

 

[Peat]

Desmith is fine imo. His backup performance has been good enough. He's not a starter, and we can't rely on him to be one, but that's why you don't bring Jarry back.

I'd rather go out and get a legitimate good starter and use Desmith as a backup rather than rely on a 1A/1B situation. If we're gonna pay out for goaltending, just get a star number one...if you can.

I just don't trust any of those bastards by now. Not unless he's got the bones of Wolverine and the mental stability of ... I've got nothing.

As such, I want a 1B regardless. I wouldn't use that as a reason to cheap out the number one (my lack of trust and options would be why I'd end up cheaping out there), but I want 1B insurance. Belt and braces.

Yes.



If you want a proven # 1 goaltender that costs you nothing Jarry is the only one that is youngish and proven.

Sure, but if you view him as a gamble, there's other ways to do the gamble as well.

 

[Gurglesons]

I just don't trust any of those bastards by now. Not unless he's got the bones of Wolverine and the mental stability of ... I've got nothing.

As such, I want a 1B regardless. I wouldn't use that as a reason to cheap out the number one (my lack of trust and options would be why I'd end up cheaping out there), but I want 1B insurance. Belt and braces.



Sure, but if you view him as a gamble, there's other ways to do the gamble as well.

I don’t think teams view him as a gamble.

 

[Freeptop]

I wonder who he would've drafted at 2OA if we lost the Crosby lottery to Anaheim.

I don't mean to pick on you here, but you hit on a pet peeve of mine.

If the Pens hadn't won the 2005 lottery, it doesn't mean Anaheim would have picked first and the Pens picked second. It would have meant an entirely different result for the entire lottery.

The actual lottery was done in draft order, with the very first pick having some teams have more chances to win than others (the Pens were among the teams with the maximum chances). After that, it was even odds for every pick from 2-30.

This idea that it "came down to Pittsburgh and Anaheim" is born out of how they announced the results, which was the opposite order of how they were actually selected. That was done to maximize the drama of the announcement.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Also, that was Berehowsky's second stint in Pittsburgh. He was my first acquisition in NHL '95.

That's funny- I did the same thing

 

[Empoleon8771]

I just don't trust any of those bastards by now. Not unless he's got the bones of Wolverine and the mental stability of ... I've got nothing.

As such, I want a 1B regardless. I wouldn't use that as a reason to cheap out the number one (my lack of trust and options would be why I'd end up cheaping out there), but I want 1B insurance. Belt and braces.

Yeah in theory I'd be fine with DeSmith as a backup if you had a proven #1, but it's also worth pointing out that DeSmith's unreliability had a major impact in them losing in the playoffs in both 2021 and 2022.

 

[Pancakes]

I agree with you that is the better solution, but again, who is that guy?

Hellebyuck or Saaros, though I'm skeptical that Saaros will actually be available and Hellebyuck would cost a haul.

If you're not bringing in one of those two, you're gambling. You either gamble on Jarry's health, or you gamble on the many hit or miss options in FA. Or you gamble on something nutty like getting Gibson. I don't think Dubas will go anywhere near that Gibson contract though.

I'm really not sure what Dubas will do. He called goaltending important in his presser but he also cited it as being a volatile position with variable performance.

There's also an issue of assets. We have at least two big needs to fill in top 4 LD and goaltending, and only enough assets to realistically make a big swing trade-wise for one of those slots unless we do something like subtract from the current roster. And Dubas also hinted at wanting to get another big piece to help out Crosby/Malkin/Jake so I'm not ruling out him making a swing at a top six player either.

I think it will be a busy summer. One of the busiest for a Pens gm in recent memory. I think Dubas will make a lot of moves.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Hellebyuck or Saaros, though I'm skeptical that Saaros will actually be available and Hellebyuck would cost a haul.

If you're not bringing in one of those two, you're gambling. You either gamble on Jarry's health, or you gamble on the many hit or miss options in FA. Or you gamble on something nutty like getting Gibson. I don't think Dubas will go anywhere near that Gibson contract though.

I'm really not sure what Dubas will do. He called goaltending important in his presser but he also cited it as being a volatile position with variable performance.

There's also an issue of assets. We have at least two big needs to fill in top 4 LD and goaltending, and only enough assets to realistically make a big swing trade-wise for one of those slots unless we do something like subtract from the current roster. And Dubas also hinted at wanting to get another big piece to help out Crosby/Malkin/Jake so I'm not ruling out him making a swing at a top six player either.

I think it will be a busy summer. One of the busiest for a Pens gm in recent memory. I think Dubas will make a lot of moves.

I'd also add Ullmark to that category, but it just comes down to actually being able to acquire them. I don't think they have the assets to pull off Hellebuyck and I'm very skeptical the Bruins would trade Ullmark to the Penguins. Saros is possible, but you're looking at #14+ to make that work. Which I'd honestly do depending on the + on top of #14.

 

[tom_servo]

That's funny- I did the same thing

He was a point man on the best PP in NHL history despite what his *actual* stats suggest (5 total games, no points).

 

[Pancakes]

I'd also add Ullmark to that category, but it just comes down to actually being able to acquire them. I don't think they have the assets to pull off Hellebuyck and I'm very skeptical the Bruins would trade Ullmark to the Penguins. Saros is possible, but you're looking at #14+ to make that work. Which I'd honestly do depending on the + on top of #14.

Yeah Ullmark or Swayman would be ok but I think if they're dealt the Bruins will move them West.

I'd move our first and whatever prospects we have in a heartbeat for Saaros. That's a franchise changing goalie. Probably for Hellebyuck too honestly.

 

[66-30-33]

What's the cost for Saros anyway? 14th+Pickering+???