Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

IIRC the Lang non-trade was a bad decision, too. Held off too long on an asset that was at it's all time peak only for dude to break his wrist or whatever it was and lost him for nothing in FA.

lol Anshakov. He was considered a sleeper prospect at the time. Whoops.

 

[Lust for Life]

Yeah I think Patrick was in an impossible position in the 2001-2004 era, but he also did a pretty horrendous job at managing the Penguins assets over that window.

Like look at these trades:

-Jagr for Beech, Lupaschuk and Sivek
-Kasparaitis for Berry and Nieminen
-Ference for a 3rd
-Kovalev for Fata, Lintner, Samuelsson and Bouchard
-Hrdina for Abid, Focht and Lefebvre
-Straka for Anshakov and Strbak
-Berehowsky for Jackman (honestly, I never realized Berehowsky played for the Penguins)

Pretty much all of these trades were the Penguins giving up a legitimate NHLer for nothing. Ference for a 3rd was especially egregious, Ference was a 23 year old defensemen on a team with an awful defense and they ditched him for a 3rd rounder that didn't pan out.

Samuelsson in the Kovalev deal is the only player in these trades that actually was an effective player in the NHL, but he was then moved in the deal to trade up for the Fleury pick.

I remember playing the freeware version of Eastside Hockey Manager with all these scrubs

 

[SEALBound]

Unless they were blockbuster hockey trades, Craig Patrick was pretty unimpressive in the "sending assets out for futures/prospects" part.

The Jagr 3 still irk me. That 2005-6 Pens team was rough to watch with the rough cast of misfits coming from WBS. Talbot was really the only one that didn't force you to the bottle nightly.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I remember playing the freeware version of Eastside Hockey Manager with all these scrubs

Yeah I'm actually familiar with Berehowsky through EHM as well. I never knew he played for the Penguins, and I actually just learned he played for the Penguins on 2 different cases.

I just know he was a really effective defenseman in the NHL and the Penguins traded him for Rick Jackman. Jackman.....wasn't a really effective defenseman in the NHL

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

FWIW I believe Samuelsson made it known he was not at all interested in playing for the Penguins.

EDIT: Jackman was terrible but dude could really hammer the puck from up top. He managed decent offensive numbers on the Penguins but mostly due to sheer opportunity IMO.

 

[Empoleon8771]

FWIW I believe Samuelsson made it known he was not at all interested in playing for the Penguins.

Yeah I don't have any issues with how they handled Samuelsson to begin with. He was an effective NHLer for sure, but the Penguins don't win their 3 cups without Fleury. Kinda hard to get mad about how he was used in that context.

It just speaks to how bad of a job Patrick did in those years that the best player he got for dumping numerous good players was traded 3 months later.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I always liked CP and acknowledge that the odds were stacked against teams like the Penguins in that era and there was little he could do aside from try to keep the lights on in many instances. But that post lockout team where he got to finally flex his GMing muscles (lol) sorta drove the point home that he was past it regardless of improving circumstances for smaller markets.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I mean, I do think there is an aspect to consider of size with regards to PKing defensemen. Defensemen need to be able to clear out the crease and box out net front guys trying to get rebound goals on the powerplay. Letang is pretty solid at that, but I don't think Pettersson is good at that at all.

The issue with guys like JJ is that he wasn't good at boxing players out despite his size and just sucked everywhere. But JJ in theory (meaning what executives think he is) would be more useful for that crease clearing role than someone like Pettersson. JJ just stinks.

Pettersson is useful on the PK though, I wasn't trying to argue he wasn't. I think you ideally sign someone like Graves or Soucy to replace Dumoulin and have Petry, Rutta, Letang, Pettersson and Soucy/Graves all killing penalties.

I understand your point. But Dumo is (well WAS) an effective PK guy because he played perfect position. He wasn't shoving people out of the way. I'd also argue Letang is a better PKer vs PP player. He also plays positioning well and gets to the 50/50 pucks before the other team.

I want to get rid of the mindset that "we don't have a PKing dman on the roster". It's an unnecessary and outdated stance.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I always liked CP and acknowledge that the odds were stacked against teams like the Penguins in that era and there was little he could do aside from try to keep the lights on in many instances. But that post lockout team where he got to finally flex his GMing muscles (lol) sorta drove the point home that he was past it regardless of improving circumstances for smaller markets.

I wonder who he would've drafted at 2OA if we lost the Crosby lottery to Anaheim.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I understand your point. But Dumo is (well WAS) an effective PK guy because he played perfect position. He wasn't shoving people out of the way. I'd also argue Letang is a better PKer vs PP player. He also plays positioning well and gets to the 50/50 pucks before the other team.

I want to get rid of the mindset that "we don't have a PKing dman on the roster". It's an unnecessary and outdated stance.

I think Dumoulin was really effective at using his size to box people out as well. Dumoulin was a terrific PKer because he had basically everything you want in a PKing defensemen (size, strength, reach and stickwork).

But they absolutely do have a PKing defensemen on the roster, multiple actually. Petry and Rutta both bring all of the skillsets needed to be an effective PKer, plus Letang and Pettersson bring some of the skillsets and are successful in the role. I want to see them add another guy to replace Dumoulin though.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I wonder who he would've drafted at 2OA if we lost the Crosby lottery to Anaheim.

A bit scary to think of huh?

Especially considering who was taken 3rd OA and how much buzz surrounded him at the time.

 

[Shrimper]

No way in hell should we be giving Jarry term or $$$.

Let him walk

 

[Empoleon8771]

No way in hell should we be giving Jarry term or $$$.

Let him walk

Honestly I'd keep Jarry if you could get him for something like 3 years at $5 million a year. I think you could possibly get him to sign that for the same reason Gavrikov just signed his deal with the Kings: gamble on the cap rising a lot in the next few years.

Jarry is still pretty young after all, he's only 28. If he takes a shorter term deal to help rebuild his value a bit, he'll still come out as a UFA at only age 31 or so. I don't see any problems with paying $8 million between a Jarry and Varlamov goalie tandem, for example. You just need to get a very good 1B goalie to platoon with Jarry, rather than a pure backup like DeSmith.

 

[Gurglesons]

Honestly I'd keep Jarry if you could get him for something like 3 years at $5 million a year. I think you could possibly get him to sign that for the same reason Gavrikov just signed his deal with the Kings: gamble on the cap rising a lot in the next few years.

Jarry is still pretty young after all, he's only 28. If he takes a shorter term deal to help rebuild his value a bit, he'll still come out as a UFA at only age 31 or so. I don't see any problems with paying $8 million between a Jarry and Varlamov goalie tandem, for example. You just need to get a very good 1B goalie to platoon with Jarry, rather than a pure backup like DeSmith.

no.

 

[Empoleon8771]

no.

Meh I think this place is too hard on Jarry. He had a bad year last year but he has gotten Vezina votes in 2 different seasons. I don't think he is as risky as acquiring someone like Gibson or Hill.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Yeah I'm actually familiar with Berehowsky through EHM as well. I never knew he played for the Penguins, and I actually just learned he played for the Penguins on 2 different cases.

I just know he was a really effective defenseman in the NHL and the Penguins traded him for Rick Jackman. Jackman.....wasn't a really effective defenseman in the NHL

True fans know it's "Ric"

 

[Gurglesons]

Meh I think this place is too hard on Jarry. He had a bad year last year but he has gotten Vezina votes in 2 different seasons. I don't think he is as risky as acquiring someone like Gibson or Hill.

I do.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Meh I think this place is too hard on Jarry. He had a bad year last year but he has gotten Vezina votes in 2 different seasons.

He got one third place vote each time (Vezina rankings only go up to third). And you know it's from some idiot homer like Rossi.

 

[Empoleon8771]

He got one third place vote each time (Vezina rankings only go up to third). And you know it's from some idiot homer like Rossi.

Fair but he also had a .919 save% in 58 starts last year where he got that vote. That may not be "Vezina worthy" and it was some moron that gave him a single 3rd place vote, but that's still really damn good.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Meh I think this place is too hard on Jarry. He had a bad year last year but he has gotten Vezina votes in 2 different seasons. I don't think he is as risky as acquiring someone like Gibson or Hill.

In a vacuum, Jarry's numbers aren't horrific and he's earned the contract you stated.

But I think it's best for all parties to move on. I don't think this team has the confidence in him any longer. So it really does go deeper than stats in this case.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Jarry seems like an even riskier re-up than Zucker, to me. I'm not convinced he has a big game bone in his body and now I can't help but be concerned about his health/durability. In some ways 5M is an OK deal... just... on some other team, please.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Jarry seems like an even riskier re-up than Zucker, to me. I'm not convinced he has a big game bone in his body and now I can't help but be concerned about his health/durability. In some ways 5M is an OK deal... just... on some other team, please.

I agree with this but couldn't you address those problems with focusing on getting a very good backup, though?

I've just been looking more and more at the UFA options and I just don't think there's really anything better than sticking with Jarry and just giving him a backup like Vokoun to Fleury. I definitely wouldn't return with a Jarry-DeSmith tandem next year, but I'm not really seeing much that would be better than like a Jarry-Varlamov or a Jarry-Korpisalo tandem.

 

[Pancakes]

That Gavrikov contract is scary. If he's getting almost 6 million a year wtf will we have to pay for a LD in FA? And the names available aren't that good. Not interested in giving like Ryan Graves that much.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I agree with this but couldn't you address those problems with focusing on getting a very good backup, though?

I've just been looking more and more at the UFA options and I just don't think there's really anything better than sticking with Jarry and just giving him a backup like Vokoun to Fleury. I definitely wouldn't return with a Jarry-DeSmith tandem next year, but I'm not really seeing much that would be better than like a Jarry-Varlamov or a Jarry-Korpisalo tandem.

Considering how barren the market seems to be... there is some sense, there. But I dunno... I'm not saying change for the sake of change is good. But I do think they need some shakeups at key positions and goaltender is probably at the top of my list. Maybe your method would achieve the same results but I get the feeling that that backup better be ready for some critical starts.

 

[Peat]

My questions with Jarry start with his health. That aside, I don't think he's been any worse than most of the goalies available, and is better than a few.

But health included, he's been super unreliable.