Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: We suck again summer edition

[HandshakeLine]

Will the league get fooled again?

given how dumb the average hockey exec is? Absolutely.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yeah it’s honestly hard for me to disagree with any of this. I think your description of his production is pretty appropriate, at best he’ll give you pretty good PP production and okay ES production while not offering anything beyond his production. It’s similar to what Kessel ended up being as he got older and older, but just with less production in both.

With that being said, I also think it’s worth questioning whether a lot of teams would do better than “pretty good PP production and okay ES production” with the salary he makes. If you look at a lot of the UFAs signed in recent years to salaries around what Granlund makes, it’s not like a lot of them were all that much more productive than Granlund would be.

I’ve said this a few times, but I think Granlund’s value is that of a point producer on a bad team. He will give you 50-60 points if you play him in prime offensive minutes, but your team likely sucks if he’s your first option for those minutes. But with that being said, does he still offer value to those teams that he would be the first option for that role? It’s hard to tell.

I think a follow-up question is how much value does he bring if we retain a million or 1.25 in salary? Granlund at 4 or 3.75 might be a bargain to some clubs who need the production, where as Granlund at 5 is hard to swallow for almost everyone.

I'd rather we retain on his salary and move him without sweeteners than buy out, but I'd do a buy out over paying someone to take him any day of the week.

 

[ChaosAgent]

According to *some* Pens fans, Crosby's barely a 1C at this point. So we'd have to add to that for Winnipeg to even consider it.

Nah, we get 2 1sts from purely a branding perspective.

 

[Malkinstheman]

So WPG wants young players rather than pure futures for Helle. That probably takes the Pens out. Pens only have futures to offer

 

[SEALBound]

Granlund is pass first, second, third, and fourth. Fifth sometimes comes up and when it does that's when the shot happens.

Yeah and our biggest issue is, we do not have any shoot-first guys that would make use of such playmaking abilities, especially in the bottom 6. If you MUST keep Granlund, ERod isn't the worst candidate to bring back as 3C. DOC/XXX-ERod-Granlund could be a potentially effective bottom 6 line.

You might be able to work something with an Anaheim or somebody. They're short of D under contract. Both POJ and Smith need waivers.
Maybe Granlund, Smith for Vatrano. They need money against the cap, have a lot of space. Plus Smith's experience might entice them.

Actually, that would be a pretty solid move for us if Anaheim is willing. Vatrano is the kinda guy that could really help the bottom 6 and be a good fill in for the top 6.

Jake-Sid-Rakell
Bunting-Malkin-Rust
XXXX-XXXX-Vatrano
DOC-Carter-XXXX

Pretty decent foundation.

 

[Gurglesons]

I really do not want to move Ty Smith over our 1st round pick this year. Smith was great in the minutes he played last year, is easily our best prospect under 24 and just had a relatively good AHL season given the circumstances.

 

[K Fleur]

Hang onto the 1st, Ty Smith and just buy Granlund out. The dead cap will suck but the team is gonna really suck by then anyways.

 

[SEALBound]

Hang onto the 1st, Ty Smith and just buy Granlund out. The dead cap will suck but the team is gonna really suck by then anyways.

Disagree. I can't stomach a $1.8mil cap hit for 3 years after this one. Just doesn't make sense for us. He's a trade or keep guy.

 

[Zbynek]

So WPG wants young players rather than pure futures for Helle. That probably takes the Pens out. Pens only have futures to offer

We have POJ which we could add to the 14OA, but Jets are already deep at LD. Like everyone else.

Not sure though if CAR/NJD/TOR could match an offer as good as the 14OA.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Hang onto the 1st, Ty Smith and just buy Granlund out. The dead cap will suck but the team is gonna really suck by then anyways.

Right now we should just hang on to Granlund, unless he can find a 1 for 1 player swap. Trading our 1st of a prospect isn't a smart decision right now

 

[Zbynek]

Also...Pickering is from Manitoba, just saying.

 

[Zbynek]

What i dont get is... if Winnipeg trades Hellebuyck is that not a rebuild move for them? How do they expect to remain competitive unless they get a decent goalie back their way (thus making their trade pool of partners way smaller)?

If the Jets need a cheap replacement for PLD/Scheifele, Granlund might unironically make sense for them.

 

[Gurglesons]

What i dont get is... if Winnipeg trades Hellebuyck is that not a rebuild move for them? How do they expect to remain competitive unless they get a decent goalie back their way (thus making their trade pool of partners way smaller)?

If the Jets need a cheap replacement for PLD/Scheifele, Granlund might unironically make sense for them.

Trying to understand Winnipeg’s asset management is your first mistake.

Chevy is one of the worst GM’s in the league and has been for years.

 

[Peat]

Yeah it’s honestly hard for me to disagree with any of this. I think your description of his production is pretty appropriate, at best he’ll give you pretty good PP production and okay ES production while not offering anything beyond his production. It’s similar to what Kessel ended up being as he got older and older, but just with less production in both.

With that being said, I also think it’s worth questioning whether a lot of teams would do better than “pretty good PP production and okay ES production” with the salary he makes. If you look at a lot of the UFAs signed in recent years to salaries around what Granlund makes, it’s not like a lot of them were all that much more productive than Granlund would be.

I’ve said this a few times, but I think Granlund’s value is that of a point producer on a bad team. He will give you 50-60 points if you play him in prime offensive minutes, but your team likely sucks if he’s your first option for those minutes. But with that being said, does he still offer value to those teams that he would be the first option for that role? It’s hard to tell.

Here is the problem as I see it. The bad teams - those that aren't capped out - seem okay with being bad teams and focusing on what's the most futures they can gouge from the many many capped out teams.

Making it real difficult for him to have value. Should he? I don't see why a team wouldn't take him for free, the UFA contract they'd sign instead of him probably isn't better long term. Will he? Skeptical.

You might be able to work something with an Anaheim or somebody. They're short of D under contract. Both POJ and Smith need waivers.
Maybe Granlund, Smith for Vatrano. They need money against the cap, have a lot of space. Plus Smith's experience might entice them.

See above. I think Anaheim would squeeze us harder. They're going to have the entire league offering them ways to get money against the cap and they're going to take the highest bids.

 

[TimmyD]

Here is the problem as I see it. The bad teams - those that aren't capped out - seem okay with being bad teams and focusing on what's the most futures they can gouge from the many many capped out teams.

Making it real difficult for him to have value. Should he? I don't see why a team wouldn't take him for free, the UFA contract they'd sign instead of him probably isn't better long term. Will he? Skeptical.



See above. I think Anaheim would squeeze us harder. They're going to have the entire league offering them ways to get money against the cap and they're going to take the highest bids.

The thing about a player like Granlund is that I believe on a bad team he’s be the classic “someone has to produce because the team is so young and bad” kind of guy. I actually think if Chicago or Anaheim traded for him, he could pump his numbers up and they could flip him at the deadline for value

 

[Peat]

The thing about a player like Granlund is that I believe on a bad team he’s be the classic “someone has to produce because the team is so young and bad” kind of guy. I actually think if Chicago or Anaheim traded for him, he could pump his numbers up and they could flip him at the deadline for value

But how much value? Right now, GMs go to the deadline looking for undercosted players, physical players, and defensively adept players. Guys that produce pretty well but aren't those things seem to be the last item left on the shelf. Vrana just got a 7th and a career AHLer. That's the low end, and Domi got a 2nd, but the chances of only getting a 4th or something are good.

Where as using the roster spot on some high intensity guy from the AHL with a little skill who hasn't quite caught on yet can get you a 1st if he takes off.

If teams thought they could get a 1st off of us to take Zucker last season - who is fast and high intensity and had a lot more flippability - I am dubious that Granlund has great value. And again, it's not like Chicago and Anaheim are going to be short on offers of guys they can flip.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

What i dont get is... if Winnipeg trades Hellebuyck is that not a rebuild move for them? How do they expect to remain competitive unless they get a decent goalie back their way (thus making their trade pool of partners way smaller)?

If the Jets need a cheap replacement for PLD/Scheifele, Granlund might unironically make sense for them.

Teams constantly try to retool and cut corners all the time to avoid rebuilding from the ground up through the draft. This team's probably gonna try to do the same thing once Sid retires.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

But how much value? Right now, GMs go to the deadline looking for undercosted players, physical players, and defensively adept players. Guys that produce pretty well but aren't those things seem to be the last item left on the shelf. Vrana just got a 7th and a career AHLer. That's the low end, and Domi got a 2nd, but the chances of only getting a 4th or something are good.

Where as using the roster spot on some high intensity guy from the AHL with a little skill who hasn't quite caught on yet can get you a 1st if he takes off.

If teams thought they could get a 1st off of us to take Zucker last season - who is fast and high intensity and had a lot more flippability - I am dubious that Granlund has great value. And again, it's not like Chicago and Anaheim are going to be short on offers of guys they can flip.

I could see a Granlund at 50% with 1 year left at the deadline if he bounces back (he will in a top 6 role) do damage.

All you need is 1 team with a top 6 hole really needing to be filled.

 

[SEALBound]

I think a follow-up question is how much value does he bring if we retain a million or 1.25 in salary? Granlund at 4 or 3.75 might be a bargain to some clubs who need the production, where as Granlund at 5 is hard to swallow for almost everyone.

I'd rather we retain on his salary and move him without sweeteners than buy out, but I'd do a buy out over paying someone to take him any day of the week.

If you are talking about the retaining in a trade, you quickly get into the retention vs buyout discussion. So within that question is a serious consideration for who you are getting back in the trade vs who you could sign with the free money.

The thing about a player like Granlund is that I believe on a bad team he’s be the classic “someone has to produce because the team is so young and bad” kind of guy. I actually think if Chicago or Anaheim traded for him, he could pump his numbers up and they could flip him at the deadline for value

If he had one year, wouldn't be a hard sell IMHO. It's that having to wait the extra year that is hard part. Which makes the Penguins paying the 2nd all the more hilariously cringy.

I think Anaheim, Chicago, or Arizona could find use in him. I also think there are some other teams that could be dark horse candidates. San Jose, perhaps for Luke Kunin. Or even the CBJ for Roslovic. My understanding is that they want to move on from him. Would make a great 3C or 3W.

 

[Gurglesons]

I could see a Granlund at 50% with 1 year left at the deadline if he bounces back (he will in a top 6 role) do damage.

All you need is 1 team with a top 6 hole really needing to be filled.

Damage? Like to that team’s hope?

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Damage? Like to that team’s hope?

Positive.

You don't go from 60 point guy to no points for no reason.

He had heavy defensive zone time when he is primarily an defensive liability. So you want to put him on a line primarily with offensive zone time and perhaps forwards that make up for his defensive lapses.

A 2.5 million cap hit Granlund in the top 6. Does work.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Damage? Like to that team’s hope?

This board has really gone galaxy brain on Granlund.

This is the same situation as Galchenyuk even if the player type is different. He isn't good enough to be in a good team's top 6, and he's pointless in a bottom 6. He serves little to no actual purpose and the idea that his value can be rehabbed in a perfect situation...possible but not likely. And if you're a rebuilding team you have to focus on developing your young players over rehabbing Granlund's value.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

We gotta dump Granlund, his contract sucks!

We gotta trade assets for Gibson and his arguably worse contract!

 

[Sideline]

We gotta dump Granlund, his contract sucks!

We gotta trade assets for Gibson and his arguably worse contract!

For real. And Granlund plays a position that is much easier to shelter and make serviceable given his skill set. If Gibson is the same goalie he has been for the last two years the getting him for free would be worse than anything Hextall ever did.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Don't get me wrong, Granlund isn't good and his contract is shit. He's a pretty underwhelming player to begin with and he's almost assuredly going to be used incorrectly by the coaching staff (debatable if there's even a correct way to use him tbh). He's a must-move imo, and if the price to offload him is too high, you have to seriously consider buying him out if the plan is to build as strong a team as possible for Sid's remaining years.

But Gibson's several years into a spiral, won't just be given away by Anaheim, has twice the term and is $1.5 million more expensive per season. I really do not want Gibson. Yeah, his numbers probably suffered a bit playing for an awful Ducks team, but this team's not exactly exceptional athelping their goalies or strong play around their own net.