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Speculation: Penguins off day talk thread: Yes, Sully is still the coach

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Gurglesons said:
Bleeding away useful players like Friedman has been an issue for several years. I’ll give the staff some love for identifying Shea as I think he’s been good, but I don’t understand Ruh over Friedman.

I also think goaltending can only be the issue so many times before we examine why the goaltending is faltering. You posted Jack’s take on this team. We are putting a mediocre goaltender in the valley of death through our lack of structure in the neutral zone and over commitment in the offensive zone.
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Jack and I have the same take, though. He just beat me to articulating it in an article, but I'm still gonna give it my own spin. Probably next week.

The issue as I see it is the forecheck. It's become too cumbersome to support the rest of the system. The Penguins send one F directly to the puck carrier with a swinging side car. That side car either continues the puck carrier pressure when the first forward peels off, or peels off himself to immediately cut off D-to-D pass or open passing lane near him.

Most teams eat with this like Florida did last year (and Seattle) because they had good legs and the speed to tactically execute this forecheck that is extremely heavy in its presence at the core of the opposition breakout.

When you don't have the legs or roster to effectively run that forecheck, what you end up with is what I like to refer to as "Moses Syndrome" - the reason I call it that is the gap between those high forecheckers and the other three players defending the NZ is soooooooo big, it's like the red sea has parted ways and given the opponent and autobahn-length of space to gain speed, drive the D wide, and cut through the Penguins defensive zone gap fairly easily and without much contest.

The middle forward is just getting lost in the slop and doing absolutely nothing. You end up with two deep, deep forecheckers, a floater in the middle, and a D that is likely not in the best position to handle the speed that is about to come at them.

If they just moved that sidecar forechecker back, let one F deep to run amok and do their damage, they could clog the NZ better and activate their D on turnovers, which is the supposed strength of this group anyway.
 
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396720117_359843113083808_2963028411788104543_n.jpg

Great shot of Geno
 
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Jesse said:
Jack and I have the same take, though. He just beat me to articulating it in an article, but I'm still gonna give it my own spin. Probably next week.

The issue as I see it is the forecheck. It's become too cumbersome to support the rest of the system. The Penguins send one F directly to the puck carrier with a swinging side car. That side car either continues the puck carrier pressure when the first forward peels off, or peels off himself to immediately cut off D-to-D pass or open passing lane near him.

Most teams eat with this like Florida did last year (and Seattle) because they had good legs and the speed to tactically execute this forecheck that is extremely heavy in its presence at the core of the opposition breakout.

When you don't have the legs or roster to effectively run that forecheck, what you end up with is what I like to refer to as "Moses Syndrome" - the reason I call it that is the gap between those high forecheckers and the other three players defending the NZ is soooooooo big, it's like the red sea has parted ways and given the opponent and autobahn-length of space to gain speed, drive the D wide, and cut through the Penguins defensive zone gap fairly easily and without much contest.

The middle forward is just getting lost in the slop and doing absolutely nothing. You end up with two deep, deep forecheckers, a floater in the middle, and a D that is likely not in the best position to handle the speed that is about to come at them.

If they just moved that sidecar forechecker back, let one F deep to run amok and do their damage, they could clog the NZ better and activate their D on turnovers, which is the supposed strength of this group anyway.
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Can you defend Sullivan after not adjusting for this? Why hasn’t he done it enough? Also what’s going on with the lack of finishing for the better part of two years now?
 
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Empoleon8771 said:
Why would I, a lifetime goalie that plays a very technical butterfly style, ever complain about Jarry not standing up?

There are zero goalies in the NHL today that play anything but a strict butterfly style. Some goalies may have some technical quirks, but there hasn't been a "standup" or "hybrid" goalie that you're talking about since the 1990s. Goalies literally do not play that style anymore because it's an outdated style associated with the early 1990s and before.

Goalies take up more space in the butterfly than they do standing up. You can look at it from a simple geometric POV, being further out and covering more space low takes up more of the net when the puck is being shot from the ice.
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I didn't imagine it, it was in some rant with @Gurglesons if I recall?

Hybrid didn't die in the 90's, elite goalies did it well into the 2000's.

Otherwise you wouldn't see goalies at the top of their crease standing up at all, the myth that standing up and taking away the net with angles is done with is ludicrous. Jarry was actually standing up for the last goal he gave up, but he started to go down, flinched first, and McTavich shot at the top of the hashmarks over his slumping shoulders.

Goalies standing up outside of their crease eliminates the entire net when they are on their angle. Goalies in the butterfly only eliminates most of the lower portion of the net where most shots are taken.

There are few who exclusively employ a stand-up style in the NHL.[1] Although it is effective and popular among goaltenders, the butterfly style can leave the upper portion of the net more vulnerable to scoring attempts.
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Not only are you wrong, and that standing up is outdated, goalies challenge players more than you are stating. It's knowing when and having that timing to use the butterfly.

Like a guy coming to the blueline and blasting a shot (nobody in the zone at all) over the shoulder of the goaltender already deep in his net in the butterfly is appalling.
 
Andy99 said:
yeah I think there’s an element of top six trying to sell out for offense…too bad that isn’t working lol since we have no true scorers on those lines….Geno’s save % is a weird outlier because his line mates aren’t that bad…there’s some bad luck involved as he’s not had any direct impact on those goals and probably the second biggest factor is having his line out so much with the third pairing lol
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For the most part, I think Malkin has been fantastic this year. There might be a little bad luck involved, but there have been a few times where I was like "Geno, what are ya doing, bud?"

Either way, something's got to give. They can 'trust the process' and just hope things turn around, make changes to the system, or switch the lines up to get more balance. They seem to be going with 'trust the process' which has worked oh so well the last several years.
 
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Ugene Magic said:
I didn't imagine it, it was in some rant with @Gurglesons if I recall?

Hybrid didn't die in the 90's, elite goalies did it well into the 2000's.

Otherwise you wouldn't see goalies at the top of their crease standing up at all, the myth that standing up and taking away the net with angles is done with is ludicrous. Jarry was actually standing up for the last goal he gave up, but he started to go down, flinched first, and McTavich shot at the top of the hashmarks over his slumping shoulders.

Goalies standing up outside of their crease eliminates the entire net when they are on their angle. Goalies in the butterfly only eliminates most of the lower portion of the net where most shots are taken.



Not only are you wrong, and that standing up is outdated, goalies challenge players more than you are stating. It's knowing when and having that timing to use the butterfly.

Like a guy coming to the blueline and blasting a shot (nobody in the zone at all) over the shoulder of the goaltender already deep in his net in the butterfly is appalling.
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I like how someone who clearly hasn't played goalie in their life is trying to explain to someone who has played goalie their entire life how goaltending works.

The kinds of goalies today are either technical butterfly goalies (someone like what Murray used to be) or athletic butterfly goalies (someone like Saros), and the best goalies are both. That's the only way that goalies play today.

The last true "hybrid" goalie was Brodeur and he was like the one hybrid goalie that lasted decently into the 2000s. Every other goalie had firmly adopted the butterfly style by then and it has been becoming even more technical focused since that. Patrick Roy is the main goalie who made the league shift its focus like this, pretty much every American and Canadian goalie growing up was then taught to play the same style as Roy.

Pretty much no standup goalie entered the league after 1990 and pretty much no hybrid goalie entered the league after 2000. The last great hybrid goalies (guys like Brodeur, Khabibulin, Nabokov and Joseph) were essentially extinct by 2010.
 
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HandshakeLine said:
For a data dude, you sure hate it when players play well elsewhere Emp. I don't get it, am I misreading you?
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Oh no I have no strong feelings towards Friedman at all, I just find it silly to fret about a #7 defenseman doing well on another team after the Penguins traded them. Like who cares?

I don't particularly care about any player that isn't on my team, so I don't know why anyone would particularly care about what a depth player does on another team after the Penguins didn't have them anymore. The same thing has happened in the past with guys like Lafferty and Kapanen as well.
 
Empoleon8771 said:
Oh no I have no strong feelings towards Friedman at all, I just find it silly to fret about a #7 defenseman doing well on another team after the Penguins traded them. Like who cares?

I don't particularly care about any player that isn't on my team, so I don't know why anyone would particularly care about what a depth player does on another team after the Penguins didn't have them anymore. The same thing has happened in the past with guys like Lafferty and Kapanen as well.
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I mean, it's a symptom more than anything else. I liked Friedman, but more than that I hate that this team has no snarl and no agitators and we play boring hockey.

I think that's the main issue for me-- we give away perfectly servicable players because they don't fit in Sully's dogshit system, but while they're here, people who love Sully's dogshit system say that the reason Friedman et al. don't get a chance is because they're "not good" enough or whatever.

People (not you, just rhetorical here) should just own up to the fact that they like Sully and bought his bullshit.
 
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HandshakeLine said:
I mean, it's a symptom more than anything else. I liked Friedman, but more than that I hate that this team has no snarl and no agitators and we play boring hockey.

I think that's the main issue for me-- we give away perfectly servicable players because they don't fit in Sully's dogshit system, but while they're here, people who love Sully's dogshit system say that the reason Friedman et al. don't get a chance is because they're "not good" enough or whatever.

People (not you, just rhetorical here) should just own up to the fact that they like Sully and bought his bullshit.
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Yeah I understand this for sure as well. I feel similarly about Friedman that I do with POJ: I like their playstyle but they're not particularly what I'm looking for on their bottom pair with how the team's defense is set up. Cole-Friedman as a 3rd pair for Vancouver looks really good on paper so I'm not surprised he's having success in that role.

I think your bottom pair is ideally something like POJ-Rutta or Cole-Friedman. Only issue is that the Penguins don't have a Cole or Rutta for the bottom pair anymore. That's why I like Ludvig so much, he looks like he could potentially be that kind of guy. I'm hoping their bottom pair ends up POJ-Ludvig by the end of the year.
 
Empoleon8771 said:
I don't particularly care about any player that isn't on my team, so I don't know why anyone would particularly care about what a depth player does on another team after the Penguins didn't have them anymore. The same thing has happened in the past with guys like Lafferty and Kapanen as well.
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He’s playing on their 2nd pairing right now. Lafferty also had like 5 points in 10 games.

Our coach sucks.
 
I do not understand how there is a single Penguins fan made about not having Sam Lafferty. The dude literally did not score a goal in a NHL game between February 16th, 2020 and January 16th, 2022. He didn't have a goal in his last 59 games with the Penguins.

Gurglesons said:
He’s playing on their 2nd pairing right now. Lafferty also had like 5 points in 10 games.

Our coach sucks.
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He is their #6 defenseman in terms of TOI and is playing the same per game in Vancouver (14:39) as he did in Pittsburgh last year (14:27).
 
Empoleon8771 said:
I do not understand how there is a single Penguins fan made about not having Sam Lafferty. The dude literally did not score a goal in a NHL game between February 16th, 2020 and January 16th, 2022. He didn't have a goal in his last 59 games with the Penguins.



He is their #6 defenseman in terms of TOI and is playing the same per game in Vancouver (14:39) as he did in Pittsburgh last year (14:27).
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Watch the games.

He's been used as their 2nd pairing at 5v5 with Cole.
 
Honour Over Glory said:
If he didn't think Sully was the problem, then he's an idiot.
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I mean, ya. I hammered Sully going back several seasons. My post history shows I put the blame on him firstly. But RJ said Sully was one of the best coaches in the league and there would be no one else to replace him under the circumstances of the current team. That we wouldn't be happy with the results of a change right now (which might be true, idk). He mostly faulted the age, the make up of the team, and individual players. Which after realizing who I was arguing with (which was like half way though) I just left it at a neutral place and we talked about other things, mostly that we grew up 10 minutes from each other and the places we used to go to as kids. He's a really nice guy. Said he appreciated different perspectives and talking hockey like that.
 
Empoleon8771 said:
Who cares if he's listed on the 2nd pair on their depth chart when he's clearly being used as the #6 defenseman? Do you seriously think that he's playing ahead of Tyler Myers?

The Canucks 2nd and 3rd pairs are Cole-Friedman and Soucy-Myers.
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Yes. He is being used as the 2nd pairing 5v5 RHD. He played over Myers in the last two games.

I watch the Canucks play hockey.
 
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