Speculation: Penguins off day talk thread: Dont look now, but we are good again!

[Allie Kitsune]

It's so disingenuous to fall behind the "it won't fix anything" shield. Nobody, not even the most optimistic souls around, think firing Sully is gonna vault this team back into contention. It's about not wanting to watch the last years of Sid be as miserable and boring as possible with a coach who fetishizes playing teams to a draw and ZAR-style play, and holding said coach accountable after six years of not winning a round of playoff hockey and now, staring down two straight playoff misses entirely. This team's definitely not gonna win another round of hockey while Sid's still playing, and I'm not sure they'll get back to the playoffs at all at this point tbh.

Year after year after year of being Bottom 3 in finishing.

Late-Stage Sullivan Hockey is not conducive to putting pucks in the net.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Year after year after year of being Bottom 3 in finishing.

Late-Stage Sullivan Hockey is not conducive to putting pucks in the net.

It's not conducive to much of anything aside from making me want to scoop out my peepers with a melon baller.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Don't get me wrong, I think the roster sucks. But Sullivan hockey is just... Ugh.

So terrible coach + aggressively mediocre/bad roster = wake me up when Sid retires, cuz this team's too chickenshit to do anything that might mildly upset the guy.

 

[displacedpensfan]

I get why Sullivan is untouchable for now, but everyone else aside from Chiodo and the Video Coaches needs to be gone, quickly.

 

[Andy99]

I get why Sullivan is untouchable for now, but everyone else aside from Chiodo and the Video Coaches needs to be gone, quickly.

I don’t get it…you must be a member of the Boston inner circle

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I hope smith is traded and makes some public comments about how crappy Sullivan is. I just want a player to actually bring this up because it’s so obvious

I think most hockey players just don't want to say that sort of shit until they're retired. I wish one of them would go scorched earth like Commodore on Babs.

I get why Sullivan is untouchable for now, but everyone else aside from Chiodo and the Video Coaches needs to be gone, quickly.

Yeah there's no reason they should suffer as well. They should be liberated like Sarge was.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

I think most hockey players just don't want to say that sort of shit until they're retired.

IIRC, didn't Petr Sykora have some choice words about Dan Bylsma after they won the 09 Cup?

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Wait are you serious?

Potentially quite a few!

As for the rest man I just don't agree. Of COURSE a lot of it is on the players. They are old and this roster has problems in it's construction. But who has had a big hand in putting this roster together? I know I'm talking to the guy that thinks that the GM stays entirely in his lane and the coach in his because of the titles next to their name but I don't know that you'll find many that agree.

This is Mike Sullivan's team. If you hate how the players are playing... he picked 'em. And if they are just out there dogging it... how is that not on him?

What DOES this guy even do in your personal estimation? Besides scoop all the glory when they ARE winning?

1. Firing Sullivan midseason likely gets them 8-10 points. Max. Which puts them right on the bubble of making the playoffs and does nothing to alter their long-term future. Again, it's better long-term to fail this way.

2. Sullivan absolutely had a hand in this roster. Roster construction is a collaborative effort. A good GM works with the coach to acquire players who fit the way the coach wants to play, and this roster is the most geared toward Sullivan's preferences in years. I think it partially matches Dubas' preference, but he'd make some additional changes, which I think we'll see over the next year (I don't think it can happen in one offseason).

3. As much as this team has struggled, I don't think effort is an issue. They're not dogging it, with maybe one exception (Smith).

4. Sullivan's best attributes are locker room and player management. He's routinely praised for how he handles the locker room by players, how he manages their focus and attention to detail. I don't think every player likes him, but the vast majority respect him and appreciate his communication level.

5. I think he's an average coach from a schematic standpoint. He has some ideas and has shown a feel to adapt on occasion, but he's not an innovator. I think this has been a primary issue the past two years. He's out of ideas. He doesn't have a solution for the power play to override anything Reirden proposes. He doesn't have an answer for 5-on-5 play.

So, that's what he does. He's a personnel manager with some Xs and Os thrown in. I think the players still respect him, but I think he's out of ideas.

I also firmly believe that this is not the kind of team that responds well to a midseason coaching change. Edmonton did because it served as a wake-up call for a team in its prime. It's too early to judge any substantial impact on the Kings since their coaching change, but they likely were never as good as their start to the season suggested and they're closer to their real talent level now (fringe playoff team).

The Wild, Islanders, Senators, Blues and Devils are all likely missing the playoffs despite their changes. Travis Green isn't leading the Devils back to glory, that's for sure. And these are examples why I think midseason coaching changes are overrated. You get a temporary bump - maybe - but a team often just falls back to its talent level. And in this case, the Pens are better off long-term being forced to sell at the deadline and hit the reset button in the offseason.

 

[Come on]

Sullivan clearly wants the Sharks to get a better pick, that's truly the spirit of giving. Sign the guy for a few more years!

The pick is ours atm.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Amazing, Nylander has 2 goals with Lumbus. Weird for Sullivan to see another bloke doing better away from his stupid ass.

1. Firing Sullivan midseason likely gets them 8-10 points. Max. Which puts them right on the bubble of making the playoffs and does nothing to alter their long-term future. Again, it's better long-term to fail this way.

2. Sullivan absolutely had a hand in this roster. Roster construction is a collaborative effort. A good GM works with the coach to acquire players who fit the way the coach wants to play, and this roster is the most geared toward Sullivan's preferences in years. I think it partially matches Dubas' preference, but he'd make some additional changes, which I think we'll see over the next year (I don't think it can happen in one offseason).

3. As much as this team has struggled, I don't think effort is an issue. They're not dogging it, with maybe one exception (Smith).

4. Sullivan's best attributes are locker room and player management. He's routinely praised for how he handles the locker room by players, how he manages their focus and attention to detail. I don't think every player likes him, but the vast majority respect him and appreciate his communication level.

5. I think he's an average coach from a schematic standpoint. He has some ideas and has shown a feel to adapt on occasion, but he's not an innovator. I think this has been a primary issue the past two years. He's out of ideas. He doesn't have a solution for the power play to override anything Reirden proposes. He doesn't have an answer for 5-on-5 play.

So, that's what he does. He's a personnel manager with some Xs and Os thrown in. I think the players still respect him, but I think he's out of ideas.

I also firmly believe that this is not the kind of team that responds well to a midseason coaching change. Edmonton did because it served as a wake-up call for a team in its prime. It's too early to judge any substantial impact on the Kings since their coaching change, but they likely were never as good as their start to the season suggested and they're closer to their real talent level now (fringe playoff team).

The Wild, Islanders, Senators, Blues and Devils are all likely missing the playoffs despite their changes. Travis Green isn't leading the Devils back to glory, that's for sure. And these are examples why I think midseason coaching changes are overrated. You get a temporary bump - maybe - but a team often just falls back to its talent level. And in this case, the Pens are better off long-term being forced to sell at the deadline and hit the reset button in the offseason.

Locker room and player management? Lol. Tocchet was the buffer for Sullivan in that regard. I don't see that being something he's good at imo.

Oilers are doing pretty well with their new coach.

Blues are in a retool mode and under Bannister they're (before today's game) 18-12-2 under him, 594%

Hynes - not a fan at all, 24-17-2 581%
Roy - 7-5-3, has some injury issues for his team
Martin - Never made sense to me.
Green - just started.

So tell me, Blues and Wild, are they better after the coaching change or before it? Oilers?

Isles with Roy are a better team and Martin was an idiotic choice. I'd say all but 1 team is better after the coaching change so far, the Sens are idiotic.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

IIRC, didn't Petr Sykora have some choice words
about Dan Bylsma after they won the 09 Cup?

Yeah but then he went to the Wild and stunk there and played a full season in Europe, came back and scored 20 goals and then left the NHL again. Sykora was also hurt and wasn't playing well so I mean he can be mad but in that situation, Sykora deserved it.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Kind of comical to claim a coaching change hasn't made the teams better. Is the bar some stupid thing like needing to make the playoffs or actual improvement regardless of that?

Because if we look at improvement?

Blues, Isles, Wild, Oilers, and Devils are all better for firing their coaches. I lump NJ in because Lindy Ruff was f***ing clueless before this season and was propped up by Brunette last season. Travis Green is probably going to improve them just by removing Ruff.

Jacques Martin for the Sens is the only one that isn't the good move and that's simply because of the hire. They needed to fire Smith a long time ago and hire someone else, not a retirement mode Martin.

I don't give a f*** if the Pens still miss with a new coach. I give f***s about improvement and at this point a new coaching staff is a massive improvement. Missing the playoffs is likely inevitable, a guarantee under Sullivan, but a new coach could spark something, maybe they miss by just 2pts or not, the players looking better under a new coach is f***ing worth it.

Also Reilly Smith and his effort - that's a f***ing load. He's playing hard while looking lost in a system a lot of players are. But to claim he isn't working as hard is f***ing stupid. The kind of dumb f*** comment or writing I'd expect out of dipshits like Yohe and Rossi.

 

[cygnus47]

....

1. Maybe more if the new coach fixed the powerplay. Short term I think we could've been a comfortable playoff team given how the rest of the division outside of NYR and CAR have been almost as bad as us. Long term, yeah, it's better for us to start rebuilding but this isn't an EA game and it's gonna suck for a long time no matter what. I'd have bought another 2 years of being a dark horse compared to being just good enough to not get meaningful draft picks.
2. Yep, agreed.
3. Yeah, they look lost not like they're not trying. Outside of a few moments, but that happens, especially in such a demoralising season.
4. When Sully got here his biggest thing was the clarity of his vision and his ability to implement an identity. That completely disappeared after 2017. The brilliant thing about 2016 was how simple the x's and o's were and how fun it looked to play. Most coaches do too much coaching and not enough identity building (see the last 6 years here).
5. Similar to 4 - he did a good job of getting out of his own way by having a simple system that focused on identity - everyone should be looking for chances to cut off outlets, trying to steal pucks, beat their check and score. Once he decided our roster couldn't do that it showed he didn't have another idea and became Bylsma 2.0 with silly ideas like camping at the blue line, bolting out of the zone on 50-50 pucks, collapsing around the net without a plan to deal with guys around the net....

I think he's an identity coach without the identity. Not even a personnel guy, given how poorly he's handled call-ups. He really gives nothing to this team anymore.

 

[ChaosAgent]

1. Firing Sullivan midseason likely gets them 8-10 points. Max. Which puts them right on the bubble of making the playoffs and does nothing to alter their long-term future. Again, it's better long-term to fail this way.

2. Sullivan absolutely had a hand in this roster. Roster construction is a collaborative effort. A good GM works with the coach to acquire players who fit the way the coach wants to play, and this roster is the most geared toward Sullivan's preferences in years. I think it partially matches Dubas' preference, but he'd make some additional changes, which I think we'll see over the next year (I don't think it can happen in one offseason).

3. As much as this team has struggled, I don't think effort is an issue. They're not dogging it, with maybe one exception (Smith).

4. Sullivan's best attributes are locker room and player management. He's routinely praised for how he handles the locker room by players, how he manages their focus and attention to detail. I don't think every player likes him, but the vast majority respect him and appreciate his communication level.

5. I think he's an average coach from a schematic standpoint. He has some ideas and has shown a feel to adapt on occasion, but he's not an innovator. I think this has been a primary issue the past two years. He's out of ideas. He doesn't have a solution for the power play to override anything Reirden proposes. He doesn't have an answer for 5-on-5 play.

So, that's what he does. He's a personnel manager with some Xs and Os thrown in. I think the players still respect him, but I think he's out of ideas.

I think this is pretty fair even though I would have tried the coaching change a while ago.

Players aren't dogging it and still seem to respect him.

But the chip/dump/desperation clear toddler hockey is a million light years removed from his original identity, which tells me the league figured him out. And indeed, he has no solution 5-on-4.

 

[The Old Master]

1. Firing Sullivan midseason likely gets them 8-10 points. Max. Which puts them right on the bubble of making the playoffs and does nothing to alter their long-term future. Again, it's better long-term to fail this way.

it gives you an honest look at what you have. right now we don't know how good our players are. a new coach will let us find out. some player will improve and if nothing else it will improve their return in trades. some won't improve and you will know who needs to go. all helping our long-term future.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I think this is pretty fair even though I would have tried the coaching change a while ago.

Players aren't dogging it and still seem to respect him.

But the chip/dump/desperation clear toddler hockey is a million light years removed from his original identity, which tells me the league figured him out. And indeed, he has no solution 5-on-4.

I do think there is a significant element to the league adapting to the way the Penguins played in 2016/2017. Everyone plays with speed now, at least to some degree. I think you could argue there were a couple years recently where the Pens were too slow (and too dumb to play fast despite not having great foot speed). But that excuse is largely gone now.

But I also think that's a great example of why you want to conduct a coaching search in the offseason. Mid-season, you're scrambling to just find someone who is available who you think can provide a spark. In the spring, you can actually do an in-depth interview process to see who has the tools and mindset that's appropriate for your team.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

1. Firing Sullivan midseason likely gets them 8-10 points. Max. Which puts them right on the bubble of making the playoffs and does nothing to alter their long-term future. Again, it's better long-term to fail this way.

2. Sullivan absolutely had a hand in this roster. Roster construction is a collaborative effort. A good GM works with the coach to acquire players who fit the way the coach wants to play, and this roster is the most geared toward Sullivan's preferences in years. I think it partially matches Dubas' preference, but he'd make some additional changes, which I think we'll see over the next year (I don't think it can happen in one offseason).

3. As much as this team has struggled, I don't think effort is an issue. They're not dogging it, with maybe one exception (Smith).

4. Sullivan's best attributes are locker room and player management. He's routinely praised for how he handles the locker room by players, how he manages their focus and attention to detail. I don't think every player likes him, but the vast majority respect him and appreciate his communication level.

5. I think he's an average coach from a schematic standpoint. He has some ideas and has shown a feel to adapt on occasion, but he's not an innovator. I think this has been a primary issue the past two years. He's out of ideas. He doesn't have a solution for the power play to override anything Reirden proposes. He doesn't have an answer for 5-on-5 play.

So, that's what he does. He's a personnel manager with some Xs and Os thrown in. I think the players still respect him, but I think he's out of ideas.

I also firmly believe that this is not the kind of team that responds well to a midseason coaching change. Edmonton did because it served as a wake-up call for a team in its prime. It's too early to judge any substantial impact on the Kings since their coaching change, but they likely were never as good as their start to the season suggested and they're closer to their real talent level now (fringe playoff team).

The Wild, Islanders, Senators, Blues and Devils are all likely missing the playoffs despite their changes. Travis Green isn't leading the Devils back to glory, that's for sure. And these are examples why I think midseason coaching changes are overrated. You get a temporary bump - maybe - but a team often just falls back to its talent level. And in this case, the Pens are better off long-term being forced to sell at the deadline and hit the reset button in the offseason.

I think a lot of this is fair and accurate. But you will just never convince me there was ever any risk in firing the coaching staff in-season. I mean... I feel like that's more or less beyond a shadow of a doubt, now. Considering their season is over with 20some games left to play. It doesn't get much more illustrative of a point than that. So what if it didn't work? Then you just move on to your idea and reset in the off season.

Bare minimum it's unforgivable to let Todd Reirden glom around on this club all season long. An even mediocre powerplay has this team likely still within striking distance. How many one goal games have the Penguins lost? A powerplay that isn't historically bad probably turns at least a few of those Ls into Ws. There's no guarantee that it would have worked but I think it's fair to say that whatever Reirden is doing certainly isn't helping so... why?

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I think a lot of this is fair and accurate. But you will just never convince me there was ever any risk in firing the coaching staff in-season. I mean... I feel like that's more or less beyond a shadow of a doubt, now. Considering their season is over with 20some games left to play. It doesn't get much more illustrative of a point than that. So what if it didn't work? Then you just move on to your idea and reset in the off season.

Bare minimum it's unforgivable to let Todd Reirden glom around on this team all season long. An even mediocre powerplay has this team likely still within striking distance. How many one goal games has this team lost? A powerplay that isn't historically bad probably turns at least a few of those Ls into Ws. There's no guarantee that it would have worked but I think it's fair to say that whatever Reirden is doing certainly isn't helping so... why?

I think we're just at a philosophical difference on the impact of in-season firings. Which is fine. Nothing wrong with that.

As far as Reirden, I never wanted him here in the first place. I was hoping some stupid teams would take him and Vellucci the last two years. However, I have seen a few people note that it is pretty rare for an assistant coach to be fired on their own midseason. Usually an assistant is canned along with the head coach. I can't find many assistants who have been fired by themselves. Maybe it's some weird NHL coaching fraternity quirk or something.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think we're just at a philosophical difference on the impact of in-season firings. Which is fine. Nothing wrong with that.

As far as Reirden, I never wanted him here in the first place. I was hoping some stupid teams would take him and Vellucci the last two years. However, I have seen a few people note that it is pretty rare for an assistant coach to be fired on their own midseason. Usually an assistant is canned along with the head coach. I can't find many assistants who have been fired by themselves. Maybe it's some weird NHL coaching fraternity quirk or something.

I was honestly pretty irritated when they hired him. Dude is like thrice-failed. Vellucci I'm whatever about. I guess at least he had a promising trajectory when he was hired into this organization. The fascination with Todddddddddddddddd is truly perplexing.

When they decide to keep your boy this offseason I hope they at LEAST dump him.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

I think a lot of this is fair and accurate. But you will just never convince me there was ever any risk in firing the coaching staff in-season. I mean... I feel like that's more or less beyond a shadow of a doubt, now. Considering their season is over with 20some games left to play. It doesn't get much more illustrative of a point than that. So what if it didn't work? Then you just move on to your idea and reset in the off season.

Bare minimum it's unforgivable to let Todd Reirden glom around on this club all season long. An even mediocre powerplay has this team likely still within striking distance. How many one goal games have the Penguins lost? A powerplay that isn't historically bad probably turns at least a few of those Ls into Ws. There's no guarantee that it would have worked but I think it's fair to say that whatever Reirden is doing certainly isn't helping so... why?

Tell em Steve-Dave

 

[Flying Dego]

I don’t get it…you must be a member of the Boston inner circle

Ya...Sullivan won a cup *checks calendar*
7 years ago. He still has 3 years of immunity.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Firing a coach won't make a difference!

4 out of 5 teams doing it and making a difference.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

That's just the way coaching works in the NHL. Torts, Ruff, Hitchcock, Laviolette, etc. These guys make multi-decade careers off of a single Cup, or even making the Finals. Sully got back to back, which he definitely happened to be in the right place at the right time, but I imagine he's got a lifetime pass as a coach if he wants it.

Still, no idea how he is still around. Bewildering.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

it gives you an honest look at what you have. right now we don't know how good our players are. a new coach will let us find out. some player will improve and if nothing else it will improve their return in trades. some won't improve and you will know who needs to go. all helping our long-term future.

This is literally why it bugs the f*** out of me when people defend Sullivan not being fired because it "won't make a difference".

Arguably the BIGGEST reason is it gives you a better idea of what parts of the roster truly do suck and what parts are under-performing because of the derpy coach.

 

[Zbynek]

Ahahahahahahah holy shit man