Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[Marioesque]

I dunno if you watched past two seasons but IMO Laine in form would still be the best forward in this team

If Laine is meh and his caphit becomes a problem, that's a different ball game but I hope it doesn't come to that.

This is what I think too. When Laine is healthy, and especially if they can fix the PP, he can be the best player. His ceiling is the highest, unfortunately he hasn't seen much healthy and/or fully recovered games lately. People forget what he actually can do because he's been out so much or playing out of recovery in a smaller role. He's still the biggest talent in the team just by draft and after draft years too.

When he comes back, it might take a few games to get in full flight as it usually does but when he is playing healthy he is a great player. The more the team structure (like having the chances to onetime on PP) helps the more you get out of him.

I find it short sighted to count him out, or Johnny for that matter. There is no pressing cap issue, and when he is on he can elevate this current team to a different level and bring that constant scoring production. The young core gets better every day, and Laine is still young too and developing. If one believes that he'll be forever plaqued with injuries, even then it's not a good plan to sell low, when he is injured.

We'll need all this depth for actual cup runs. We'll need Laine and Johnny at their best AND the young core to get better to get there. The idea is to improve until there. Using our best players to their full potential is required to reach that level.

There's some coaching issues (PP especially) and goaltending to sort. Laine isn't the problem, he just hasn't been around to help much. If one wants to put that on him, fine. I'd put it on those who have injured him first.

 

[Napoli]

I dunno if you watched past two seasons but IMO Laine in form would still be the best forward in this team, apart maybe from Marchenko who really has been great lately (but is still belov 0.7P/GP for the season) but might also be due to fall back to earth a bit. Anyway if Marchenko especially keeps that up and Fantilli & Johnson progress, even if Laine returns to his best he might still become a bit reduntant and that's not even taking Chinny into account. But at least in that case he'd be a valuable trade asset even with his caphit.

Assuming Laine comes back strong as ever, I think it'll depend entirely on team success what they do with him. He's signed through 25-26. I'm not sure what's going with the cap and if that's gonna be a problem. If they're looking at playoffs next year and Laine is playing well, I don't think they'll be looking to get rid of him. If I had to guess, he'll either play through his contract or a TDL move happens on his last year (or even next season, depending how the team does).

If Laine is meh and his caphit becomes a problem, that's a different ball game but I hope it doesn't come to that.

He was very good last year but it's not really a question about how good is Laine's "good", it's how bad is Laine's "bad". Let me tell ya, his bad is god awful. I think if the young Russians keep progressing like they are, plus Fantilli, plus another high end pick this year, Laine starts to become obsolete. I do think he bounces back, he's had a really rough start to the year plus injuries have plagued him but at some point you have to ask, is all of it really worth it? The young players may make him not really needed and even if he's playing well and becomes a highly sought after asset, this team could really use a shutdown dman.

 

[NotWendell]

A point per game player on the CBJ needs to rethink his game? Funnily I agree. I’ve posted before what I think he should be focusing (and being utilized on). He’s been a carrying force the last two seasons though, so I can’t understand the complaining about his contributions to this team.

Good players make others on their line/team better. I certainly don't see that when Laine is healthy enough to be on the ice.

 

[Marioesque]

it's how bad is Laine's "bad". Let me tell ya, his bad is god awful.

I won't let you tell me because I don't see that in the games. The games after concussion, he fumbled pucks. Not like costing the team fumbles but trying to do too much and mishandling the puck. He can look average in those circumstances, but not god awful. It's just fashionable to exaggerate Laine's failures it seems. I fear more with Werenski or Gaudreau with the puck because I have learned it ends up in our net when they fumble and that happens quite a bit.

It's a weird thing. I watched the Canadian feed and they were complaining how Laine bringing the puck in looked like he had no confidence (he skated it in through middle, turned to boards to pull 2 guys on him, his pass to deep got barely intercepted which lead to Laine shot) , they complained about the first shot he took in that shift, said it took too long. Then they show the second shot of the shift in the top corner and kinda brushed it off. He brought the puck in, helped to keep it in twice, took two shots and scored a goal without leaving the zone. And they were highlighting some imagined issues.

It sucks that it's contagious

Good players make others on their line/team better. I certainly don't see that when Laine is healthy enough to be on the ice.

Maybe you don't, I definitely do. When healthy he creates a lot of offense for his linemates and stats show it too. Just go watch the shift he scored against Toronto, he's driving offense.

Maybe you're referring to some specific game, I did miss one or two at some point

 

[majormajor]

It's a weird thing. I watched the Canadian feed and they were complaining how Laine bringing the puck in looked like he had no confidence (he skated it in through middle, turned to boards to pull 2 guys on him, his pass to deep got barely intercepted which lead to Laine shot) , they complained about the first shot he took in that shift, said it took too long. Then they show the second shot of the shift in the top corner and kinda brushed it off. He brought the puck in, helped to keep it in twice, took two shots and scored a goal without leaving the zone. And they were highlighting some imagined issues.

It sucks that it's contagious

Laine scored and did some nice things on that shift, but the clips they showed I think accurately portrayed how off Laine was. You know he's not right when he's giving up his shot lane while repeatedly dusting off the puck.

And I have to say that when Laine is trying to make some extra contribution by pulling 2 guys to him, it usually goes poorly. Leave that to KJ. The team would be better off if Laine would stick to making a simple pass.

 

[Marioesque]

Laine scored and did some nice things on that shift, but the clips they showed I think accurately portrayed how off Laine was. You know he's not right when he's giving up his shot lane while repeatedly dusting off the puck.

And I have to say that when Laine is trying to make some extra contribution by pulling 2 guys to him, it usually goes poorly. Leave that to KJ. The team would be better off if Laine would stick to making a simple pass.

The more KJ can take that role (and I think he can now), the more Laine is able to position for shots.

 

[Marioesque]

but the clips they showed I think accurately portrayed how off Laine was.

Really? Because it was one shift where he brought the puck in and eventually scored. How was that "off"? They cut that into those samples. If you watch the whole sequence, it's pretty damn good play from everyone.

 

[Napoli]

I won't let you tell me because I don't see that in the games. The games after concussion, he fumbled pucks. Not like costing the team fumbles but trying to do too much and mishandling the puck. He can look average in those circumstances, but not god awful. It's just fashionable to exaggerate Laine's failures it seems. I fear more with Werenski or Gaudreau with the puck because I have learned it ends up in our net when they fumble and that happens quite a bit.

It's a weird thing. I watched the Canadian feed and they were complaining how Laine bringing the puck in looked like he had no confidence (he skated it in through middle, turned to boards to pull 2 guys on him, his pass to deep got barely intercepted which lead to Laine shot) , they complained about the first shot he took in that shift, said it took too long. Then they show the second shot of the shift in the top corner and kinda brushed it off. He brought the puck in, helped to keep it in twice, took two shots and scored a goal without leaving the zone. And they were highlighting some imagined issues.

It sucks that it's contagious

There's been plenty of instances of Laine turning pucks over and ending in the back of the net. I think his mistakes would be more acceptable if he didn't try and dangle and walk through entire defenses so often. That's where the god awful is. His inability to recognize that what he's trying isn't working is what's so frustrating, not that he can't ever do it but when it's not working, he never switches things up. Ultimately, unless he's scoring goals, he's not making his team or teammates better. There's no forecheck or ability to hang onto pucks, the streakyness of goal scoring is fine but the constant turnovers make the team much worse.

 

[Marioesque]

Ultimately, unless he's scoring goals, he's not making his team or teammates better. There's no forecheck or ability to hang onto pucks, the streakyness of goal scoring is fine but the constant turnovers make the team much worse.

Well I don't see that on the ice or in the stats, so we'll just have to agree to disagree then,

 

[Cowumbus]

Well I don't see that on the ice or in the stats, so we'll just have to agree to disagree then,

Are you related to Laine or something?

There are clearly stats and models that show when he is bad, he is terrible. I searched this is 5 seconds on X.

 

[Cowumbus]

 

[Marioesque]

Not related, just reasonable.

I've liked the player since before he got in the NHL. I see his mistakes but also his good plays. Generally when he is healthy he is very good, often elite.

I've seen 96% card from last season, these just mean very little.

I watch the games and I do use advanced stats too, personal stats and everything else.

I can see when a player makes a pass or creates room for others by drawing in defense, when they fumble the puck and what it leads to. I don't expect Laine to be a great defensive player, if that's what you're looking for then you have the wrong type of player altogether. Pastrnak isn't defensively good, Kucherov isn't defensively good, Point isn't defensively good. McDavid or Draisaitl aren't defensively good. It's kinda crazy to expect Laine to be a copy of Barkov just because they are friends. They're not the same player type, or role. Carter Verhaeghe isn't defensively good. Jason Robertson isn't defensively good. Ovechkin isn't defensively good and never was.

He's not a selke candidate 2 way center, he is one of the best goal scoring wingers in the game when used properly.

If someone says Laine doesn't backcheck, they have not watched him play. I still hear that shit a lot. Backchecks a million times more than JG for example.

But yeah give me "cards" from 3 years ago to prove some points. If you're traveling back in time, how about bring up some of his earlier production when he had healthier seasons than the last 3?

Was he not an almost PPG player last season? The only one with a positive 5 on 5 in the team? And clearly some of those games would go under the "still in recovery" because he had several injuries and came back from them.

You're absolutely cherry picking your data. I can't do that because I analyse data for living and "garbage in, garbage out" is real. The more data you have the more accurate the predictions can be. You seem to filter out all the positive and focus only on the stretches where he struggles, and you'll ignore any reasons like injury recovery etc because that just doesn't fit the agenda.

I have the entire career of Laine in fresh memory so I know the ups and downs of it. This time of year in his rookie season from december to february he was leading the league in points per 60 minutes played, just above Marchand and McDavid. And running away with calder. Then they put him on the RD spot in PP like CBJ did the other week and results were the same, not much to write home about. Wheeler got back to lineup, Laine was dropped to Little's line and everything dried up offensively for him. He got injured towards the end of that season too. I've seen him score 18 in a month, 5 in a game. I've also seen him struggle to get back to full game readyness after injuries, which is what happens to most humans I know.

If he was a middle of the pack forward I'd understand your gripe. But to those who have been following his career more closely, they know there's an elite player in there and just needs the right circumstances to flourish. He can be extremely valuable to this team when he is fully healthy, and if the coaching fixes the PP and puts Zach in the 2nd PP, a RHD in the 1st PP and Laine on the left then he WILL be one of the best PP players in the league just as Jarmo said. Laine can score 20-30 on PP, if the team understands to feed it. It was buzzing last season with Boqvist in it.

Just use him to his strengths and judge him by those instead of hissing at him for being a Pastrnak instead of a Bergeron. He never was going to be that. He's not the horse that pulls the plow but the one that wins the races. When the team is growing, players like KJ and Fantilli will hold the puck more, draw more defense to them. That's where you get the best out of Laine, when he doesn't need to be the one handling the puck all the time but just has to find openings to shoot from and be ready for passes. He's had to assume the puck carrying and playmaking role but now the roster is good enough to get him back to his most productive role.

He is a much better player, much higher ceiling, than the guy he was traded for. Jarmo did very well in a situation that he was forced in.

His pre-NHL team knew exactly how to use him. He was 17, physically much weaker than the men he played against and not much defensive instincts. He was the playoff MVP and broke the goals record because they just fed his shot and he kept doing what he does. They didn't get a fantastic overall 2 way extravaganza out of him, he just scored at a godly rate because his shot was already then better than anyone elses. The value came from the goals which won the games. That's how you get your moneys worth with him. Utilize the weapon.

 

[VT]

Why didn't you show stats from last season? Didn't it fit the "Laine is bad" formula?

 

[Cowumbus]

Why didn't you show the stats from last season? Or is that not good enough for you?

Because I am talking about when he is not at his best, which is quite often.

Emphasis on the: There are clearly stats and models that show when he is bad, he is terrible.

 

[Farmboy Patty]

Because I am talking about when he is not at his best, which is quite often.

Emphasis on the: There are clearly stats and models that show when he is bad, he is terrible.

Laine’s last two seasons have been good IMO, which is a relevant period of time to have an estimate of his production. Do you disagree?

 

[Marioesque]

Because I am talking about when he is not at his best, which is quite often.

Emphasis on the: There are clearly stats and models that show when he is bad, he is terrible.

Yeah you can certainly find times where he has played bad, like some of the season he joined the team.

There's no doubt you can drown Laine in a low minutes, low opportunities situation and he'll look "bad" but no worse than any other player in that role. When he gets the opportunities he seems to thrive though.

So it's up to the coaches if they want the good or the mediocre. I'd choose the good but that's just me.

 

[VT]

Because I am talking about when he is not at his best, which is quite often.

Emphasis on the: There are clearly stats and models that show when he is bad, he is terrible.

His tragical season was 2020/21. 2021/22 - 1PPG despite injuries.

This season, stats are affected by concussions. You know it very good. The basis of statistics is to take into account everything that can influence it. Of course, this applies to ALL players.

 

[majormajor]

Laine’s last two seasons have been good IMO, which is a relevant period of time to have an estimate of his production. Do you disagree?

We know that Laine is good to very good when he is good, we're trying to persuade you how bad Laine is when he is bad (very bad).

Yeah you can certainly find times where he has played bad, like some of the season he joined the team.

There's no doubt you can drown Laine in a low minutes, low opportunities situation and he'll look "bad" but no worse than any other player in that role. When he gets the opportunities he seems to thrive though.

So it's up to the coaches if they want the good or the mediocre. I'd choose the good but that's just me.

No we've seen Laine multiple times (his first season here and this season) drown in the best offensive opportunities. And we've also seen him look much worse than others in "low opportunity" situations. A player that becomes averse to simple plays and cannot forecheck is going to hurt his team.

 

[VT]

We know that Laine is good to very good when he is good, we're trying to persuade you how bad Laine is when he is bad (very bad).

Same again, we need to distinguish when he is healthy and when the effects of injuries are affecting his game. Again, this applies to all players.
We can also include the loss of self-confidence, when the player starts to make not always ideal decisions, and in his case it might not be wrong to consider a sports psychologist.
Btw, It seems to me that he's started to use more passes instead of "I do it myself" systems.

 

[majormajor]

Same again, we need to distinguish when he is healthy and when the effects of injuries are affecting his game. Again, this applies to all players.
We can also include the loss of self-confidence, when the player starts to make not always ideal decisions, and in his case it might not be wrong to consider a sports psychologist.
Btw, It seems to me that he's started to use more passes instead of "I do it myself" systems.

I don't think it applies to all players.

If Laine was as bad as low confidence Bemstrom when Laine is bad, then he wouldn't be nearly as bad. Simple plays and forecheck and you can still be a decent player. Overhandling and turnovers and then we have a problem.

 

[VT]

I don't think it applies to all players.

If Laine was as bad as low confidence Bemstrom when Laine is bad, then he wouldn't be nearly as bad. Simple plays and forecheck and you can still be a decent player. Overhandling and turnovers and then we have a problem.

I mentioned self-confidence only because of the sports psychologist. Although in recent games he has simplified the game.

If his game is not affected by injury, then we can evaluate his play fairly. And that goes for every player.
.

 

[Marioesque]

No we've seen Laine multiple times this season drown in the best offensive opportunities. And we've also seen him look much worse than others in "low opportunity" situations. A player that becomes averse to simple plays and cannot forecheck is going to hurt his team.

When was that? After his concussion he played 3rd line minutes pretty much. And a lot of minutes without goalie. PP on the wrong side point. That's the best usage and opportunity? Or are you referring to some other time frame?

What part of forechecking doesn't he do in your opinion? Didn't he get injured forechecking? Last year too behind the net, oblique injury. What is it that he's not doing?

He sometimes doesn't get cleanly over blue line when skating the puck in, might fumble it up or miss a pass after gaining the zone (on the flip side, he also sometimes goes through the entire defense and scores). Happens to literally everyone who carries the puck but ok, let's say it happens more to him than those that don't carry the puck in much. Fair. I've watched Mikko Rantanen do it couple of games in a row just two weeks ago, as the last man and getting scored on too. Is he a terrible player for it, is McKinnon or McDavid when they fumble it? I'd get the criticism if his puck fumbles cost goals directly constantly but they don't. I've seen Johnny and Zach do much worse this season, first assists to breakaways for opponents. Are they horribly bad? No. When you do and try to do a lot, shit happens. I don't find Laine being any more of a negative impact than most of the offensively gifted wingers in the league.

Should he dump and chase, is that what the coaching is asking of him or are they asking him to skate it in? I don't see the team dump&chase much so I think it's systematic more than player decision. I see Kuraly line dump and chase but the others don't.

He's pretty good at simple passes and quick redirections out of the own zone around the boards, usually finds his man and gets the puck out of the defensive zone. Not perfect but he won't go cross ice on those like I've seen some other stars do and result on breakaways against own goalie.

I don't want Laine to be the main puck carrier in any situation, he should always be looking for openings and using what separates him from others. That's how you get more than your moneys worth.

 

[joybang]

I don't think it applies to all players.

If Laine was as bad as low confidence Bemstrom when Laine is bad, then he wouldn't be nearly as bad. Simple plays and forecheck and you can still be a decent player. Overhandling and turnovers and then we have a problem.

Without delving into the *ahem* injury prone conversation, it doesn’t help this will be his third straight year he’s going to miss 25+ games.

 

[Marioesque]

we're trying to persuade you how bad Laine is when he is bad (very bad).

First season in CBJ was pretty bad. I just don't want to join the choir that overhypes Laines mediocre games into some before unseen horror. I see worse every night from some star players, I watch 2-3 games at least partially every night there's a full schedule.

Did anyone notice Tage Thompson doing anything other than two hard slappers last game (one went in)? That's how it's been for him, Voronkov has better stats than Thompson this season. Mittelstad is outplaying him. And it's not even injury related. As I mentioned Rantanen, he went through a 9 game scoring slump and looked pretty bad some nights.

It's not just a Laine thing. Johnny has been trying to "get into it" for over 30 games this season and shows up very occasionally for parts of the game, despite being healthy as far as we know it. Every team has some players underachieving at some time. McDavid had a bad start by his standards too.

Good plan IMO is to try and smooth those out and get them to their best instead of trying to kick them for more suffering.

 

[majormajor]

First season in CBJ was pretty bad. I just don't want to join the choir that overhypes Laines mediocre games into some before unseen horror. I see worse every night from some star players, I watch 2-3 games at least partially every night there's a full schedule.

Did anyone notice Tage Thompson doing anything other than two hard slappers last game (one went in)? That's how it's been for him, Voronkov has better stats than Thompson this season. Mittelstad is outplaying him. And it's not even injury related. As I mentioned Rantanen, he went through a 9 game scoring slump and looked pretty bad some nights.

It's not just a Laine thing. Johnny has been trying to "get into it" for over 30 games this season and shows up very occasionally for parts of the game, despite being healthy as far as we know it. Every team has some players underachieving at some time. McDavid had a bad start by his standards too.

Good plan IMO is to try and smooth those out and get them to their best instead of trying to kick them for more suffering.

Good players can be bad at times, that isn't at debate. I would like Laine to be less bad when he's bad.