Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore (UPD #443ff 14-Dec agenda/lease links)

[MAROONSRoad]

OK. So here is the conspiracy...

Hulsizer buys the team as majority owner, publicly says he is committed to the next 25 years ( or until his wife cuts off his money ) , hires an "A" grade person to run the team ( Wayne Gretzky anyone ? ), and starts advertising. Soon after, in a fit of anger, he buys out the minority IEH partners because they won't shutup about Saskatoon. Hulsizer manages to turn the team around and makes a decent go of it.

Mark Chipman buys the Atlanta Thrashers in 2011 and moves them to Winnipeg to play in the TNSE owned building of which he is a partner. As a reward for being "used" to put pressure on the CoG, Thomson ( other partner of TNSE) will be awarded the franchise from Columbus for Southern Ontario in 2013 and builds a new building. End result... Chipman owns team in Winnipeg, Thomson owns team in S.O., and TNSE runs both buildings ( no rule in the NHL bylaws against that)

After building the new arena in Quebec City, Quebec is awarded the franchise formally know as the NYI in 2015.

Everyone is happy.

Thankfully for Winnipeg I don't think that is Thomson's endgame.

GHOST

 

[dandeneau44]

You know, now that MH is on the record saying something to the effect of expecting to lose money, you'd think COG would jump all over that and push back in negotiations.

Actually that's a good point never really thought of that aspect of this. Perhaps the deal doesn't involve as much money from CoG as once thought? Or perhaps Glendale would rather not rock the boat and send Hulsizer on his way like the others. At this point no one seems to deny the fact that it's 3rd strike and you're out. And right now it's a full count and Hulsizer's at the plate.

 

[Dado]

Here's my favorite part "Sources have said Hulsizer’s proposed arena lease calls for payments to the Coyotes as high as $100-million (U.S.) over at least five years."

A reminder that when Hulsizer is paraphrased as saying it may be necessary to lose money in the short term - he never actually says anything about that being his own money he's planning on losing.

 

[GoJetsGo55]

A reminder that when Hulsizer is paraphrased as saying it may be necessary to lose money in the short term - he never actually says anything about that being his own money he's losing.

EXACTLY!

 

[AllByDesign]

A reminder that when Hulsizer is paraphrased as saying it may be necessary to lose money in the short term - he never actually says anything about that being his own money he's planning on losing.

Well, the recession was very harmful to his company's bottom line. He couldn't very well throw more of his money into an isolated pocket of hockey recession.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

Well, the recession was very harmful to his company's bottom line.

Do we know that? I'd have guessed it would've been somewhat isolated.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Ken Campbell, The Hockey News:

If NHL commissioner Gary Bettman was telling the truth when he said prospective Phoenix Coyotes owner Matthew Hulsizer “did a lot of due diligence†into the local hockey market, we’ll have to assume part of that due diligence included noticing that more than half their announced crowds this season have been less than 10,000...

There is some sort of fantasy world element that believes Hulsizer can make the NHL work in the desert. The only problem is that he’s beginning to believe it, too, when, in reality, this transaction has disaster plastered all over it.

Two red flags came up big-time in this corner, as we learned more about Hulsizer over the past two days of board of governors meetings. The first is that Hulsizer has a net worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $300 million. That might sound like a lot of money to you and me, but it’s a pittance by NHL standards. You need a billionaire these days just to run a healthy NHL franchise. The last thing the NHL needs in Phoenix is an owner and a bunch of fellow investors who could develop a case of the shorts.

The second red flag came when Hulsizer talked about the prospect of being an NHL owner by saying, “I’d love to join the clubâ€...Hulsizer apparently wants to be part of the club so badly that it appears he’s willing to make a very, very bad investment...

One of several things could save Hulsizer. First, he could come to his senses and back out of the deal before it’s too late, which isn’t likely, since Bettman said Hulsizer is eager to get the deal done as quickly as possible. Second, he could fail to get a suitable lease with the City of Glendale, which would give him an out. The third, and least likely, is that the good citizens of Glendale get taken for granted and give Hulsizer the approximately $100 million in concessions he needs to offset his losses. And even then, all bets are off. The fourth would be that, as part of the purchase, Hulsizer would have an option to move the team when he realizes it won’t work in Arizona.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articl...wner-doesnt-make-Phoenix-a-hockey-market.html

GHOST

 

[RR]

what's the over/under on COG getting this done?

 

[RR]

Ken Campbell, The Hockey News:



http://www.thehockeynews.com/articl...wner-doesnt-make-Phoenix-a-hockey-market.html

GHOST

So, Campbell is credible and Burnside, the writer who earlier this summer was extolled for reporting TNSE made an offer and the Coyotes were on way to Winnipeg if local sale could didn't happen, is not?

 

[Jeffrey93]

So, Campbell is credible and Burnside, the writer who earlier this summer was extolled for reporting TNSE made an offer and the Coyotes were on way to Winnipeg if local sale could didn't happen, is not?

Isn't that statement still, depending on the reader, considered to be true?

 

[RR]

Isn't that statement still, depending on the reader, considered to be true?

Of course. Just wish someone could post a link to the Burnside article for another perspective.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Ken Campbell, The Hockey News:



http://www.thehockeynews.com/articl...wner-doesnt-make-Phoenix-a-hockey-market.html

GHOST

This is why...if I were a BOG member....I'd vote against this guy. Not because I don't want the team to stay in Phoenix...not because I don't like the guy....not because I haven't sipped Gary's Kool-Aid.....but because I would know....we have gone down this awful awful path and things have NEVER been good in Phoenix. So I would want ANY new owner to be protected against going down that same path again and ME as BOG member would be protected against having to front MY money AGAIN to bail this team out.

If I'm on the BOG I look at approving any Phoenix sale in this way:
'Does selling the team to this person make it nearly impossible that I will end up in the same set of circumstances that I am in now?'

And without an "escape-clause"....I can't say yes to it. His limited worth and dependence on financial backers makes it worse. When his financiers get tired of losses....what happens then?

Anyhoo.....bottom-line....if I'm on the BOG....I'd want to ONLY accept a deal that will make sure I never have to give a an extra dime to that franchise (aside from revenue sharing) ever again. That is all I would care about. I'm not sure this guy would meet my standards.

I doubt the BOG would all agree to it....but seriously....if they want money....their best approach is to drag this on until after the new year and look at 'portable' offers. They could make a nice chunk of change on their investment.

Assuming they won't do that.....I'd like to think the NHL will realize what 'almost' happened and start talks about creating an 'arena fund'. It will be a messy thing to deal with as there are still a select few that could use extra dollars NOW for a rink. But, after the mess they went through with Glendale SIMPLY because Glendale coughed up dough for a rink....you would like to believe they will try to avoid that in the future. Had the NHL used such a fund to pay for some of Jobing.com Arena's construction.....they would likely be able to walk away a little bit easier. It would, at a minimum, remove the 'the public might never build us another arena again!' threat.

An 'arena fund' would give the NHL an 'escape' from any market as they put in their "fair share" to the building. Hopefully it is something that this Phoenix eye sore helps create talks about. Otherwise....there is likely no good that will come of this debacle in Phoenix. Not even a stable team....it will just be a different Owner crying about losses and asking to re-negotiate their lease every year.

If the Phoenix Coyotes exist in 2 to 3 years.....I'll eat a couch cushion.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

So, Campbell is credible and Burnside, the writer who earlier this summer was extolled for reporting TNSE made an offer and the Coyotes were on way to Winnipeg if local sale could didn't happen, is not?

I'm not vouching for anyone's credibility. I'm posting an article. Make your own judgment.

As for the Coyotes, they would be playing in Winnipeg right now if the COG had not -- at the very last moment, I might add -- agreed to place $25 MM in escrow.

GHOST

 

[RR]

This is why...if I were a BOG member....I'd vote against this guy. Not because I don't want the team to stay in Phoenix...not because I don't like the guy....not because I haven't sipped Gary's Kool-Aid.....but because I would know....we have gone down this awful awful path and things have NEVER been good in Phoenix. So I would want ANY new owner to be protected against going down that same path again and ME as BOG member would be protected against having to front MY money AGAIN to bail this team out.

If I'm on the BOG I look at approving any Phoenix sale in this way:
'Does selling the team to this person make it nearly impossible that I will end up in the same set of circumstances that I am in now?'

And without an "escape-clause"....I can't say yes to it. His limited worth and dependence on financial backers makes it worse. When his financiers get tired of losses....what happens then?

Anyhoo.....bottom-line....if I'm on the BOG....I'd want to ONLY accept a deal that will make sure I never have to give a an extra dime to that franchise (aside from revenue sharing) ever again. That is all I would care about. I'm not sure this guy would meet my standards.

I doubt the BOG would all agree to it....but seriously....if they want money....their best approach is to drag this on until after the new year and look at 'portable' offers. They could make a nice chunk of change on their investment.

Assuming they won't do that.....I'd like to think the NHL will realize what 'almost' happened and start talks about creating an 'arena fund'. It will be a messy thing to deal with as there are still a select few that could use extra dollars NOW for a rink. But, after the mess they went through with Glendale SIMPLY because Glendale coughed up dough for a rink....you would like to believe they will try to avoid that in the future. Had the NHL used such a fund to pay for some of Jobing.com Arena's construction.....they would likely be able to walk away a little bit easier. It would, at a minimum, remove the 'the public might never build us another arena again!' threat.

An 'arena fund' would give the NHL an 'escape' from any market as they put in their "fair share" to the building. Hopefully it is something that this Phoenix eye sore helps create talks about. Otherwise....there is likely no good that will come of this debacle in Phoenix. Not even a stable team....it will just be a different Owner crying about losses and asking to re-negotiate their lease every year.

If the Phoenix Coyotes exist in 2 to 3 years.....I'll eat a couch cushion.

If you were an owner you are protected. Judge Baum ruled Balsillie was not a qualified bidder and that neither he nor Moyes, nor any other individual could decide where a franchise is located. That is decided by the NHL and its BOG. So, you're safe, and you have legal ruling to back you up.

 

[RR]

I'm not vouching for anyone credibility. I'm posting an article. Make your own judgment.

GHOST

Actually you did by calling Burnside "emotional," and pointed to his address to dismiss his credibility.

 

[Jeffrey93]

OK. So here is the conspiracy...

Hulsizer buys the team as majority owner, publicly says he is committed to the next 25 years ( or until his wife cuts off his money ) , hires an "A" grade person to run the team ( Wayne Gretzky anyone ? ), and starts advertising. Soon after, in a fit of anger, he buys out the minority IEH partners because they won't shutup about Saskatoon. Hulsizer manages to turn the team around and makes a decent go of it.

Mark Chipman buys the Atlanta Thrashers in 2011 and moves them to Winnipeg to play in the TNSE owned building of which he is a partner. As a reward for being "used" to put pressure on the CoG, Thomson ( other partner of TNSE) will be awarded the franchise from Columbus for Southern Ontario in 2013 and builds a new building. End result... Chipman owns team in Winnipeg, Thomson owns team in S.O., and TNSE runs both buildings ( no rule in the NHL bylaws against that)

After building the new arena in Quebec City, Quebec is awarded the franchise formally know as the NYI in 2015.

Everyone is happy.

Great conspiracy theory.....but the BIGGEST road block to a team in Southwestern Ontario is building an arena that would compete with the ACC. If your theory involved renovating an existing building....I could possibly buy into it.

 

[Street Hawk]

If you were an owner you are protected. Judge Baum ruled Balsillie was not a qualified bidder and that neither he nor Moyes, nor any other individual could decide where a franchise is located. That is decided by the NHL and its BOG. So, you're safe, and you have legal ruling to back you up.

I think his point was that he doesn't want to see the Coyotes sold to anyone where there is a decent likelihood (due to his limited net worth compared to other NHL owners) of the league taking over the franchise in the next couple of seasons.

I for one, don't want to see the sale of the Coyotes as a temp solution, like the TB situation when Davidson sold to Koules/Barrie. That was a joke for 2 years.

NHL has 1 shot to make this transaction work. If the NHL doesn't find the right owner for the PHX market, they have to hold onto the franchise. Or sell it and move them to another market.

 

[Adventure Metal]

It appears the dream of relocating the Coyotes back to Winnipeg will die its official death in a Glendale city council chamber sometime next week.
At least that's what everyone in the know seems to believe. Glendale city council will be asked to sign a lease negotiated on its behalf by city manager Ed Beasley. The deal, as one insider told us Monday, "will blow you away when you see what they're giving (potential owner Matthew) Hulsizer."
Glendale, it appears, is ready to cover losses in exchange for a long-term commitment for Hulsizer.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/columnists/the-future-may-not-be-what-it-was-111511559.html

 

[MAROONSRoad]

This is why...if I were a BOG member....I'd vote against this guy. Not because I don't want the team to stay in Phoenix...not because I don't like the guy....not because I haven't sipped Gary's Kool-Aid.....but because I would know....we have gone down this awful awful path and things have NEVER been good in Phoenix. So I would want ANY new owner to be protected against going down that same path again and ME as BOG member would be protected against having to front MY money AGAIN to bail this team out.

If I'm on the BOG I look at approving any Phoenix sale in this way:
'Does selling the team to this person make it nearly impossible that I will end up in the same set of circumstances that I am in now?'

And without an "escape-clause"....I can't say yes to it. His limited worth and dependence on financial backers makes it worse. When his financiers get tired of losses....what happens then?

Anyhoo.....bottom-line....if I'm on the BOG....I'd want to ONLY accept a deal that will make sure I never have to give a an extra dime to that franchise (aside from revenue sharing) ever again. That is all I would care about. I'm not sure this guy would meet my standards.

I doubt the BOG would all agree to it....but seriously....if they want money....their best approach is to drag this on until after the new year and look at 'portable' offers. They could make a nice chunk of change on their investment.

Assuming they won't do that.....I'd like to think the NHL will realize what 'almost' happened and start talks about creating an 'arena fund'. It will be a messy thing to deal with as there are still a select few that could use extra dollars NOW for a rink. But, after the mess they went through with Glendale SIMPLY because Glendale coughed up dough for a rink....you would like to believe they will try to avoid that in the future. Had the NHL used such a fund to pay for some of Jobing.com Arena's construction.....they would likely be able to walk away a little bit easier. It would, at a minimum, remove the 'the public might never build us another arena again!' threat.

An 'arena fund' would give the NHL an 'escape' from any market as they put in their "fair share" to the building. Hopefully it is something that this Phoenix eye sore helps create talks about. Otherwise....there is likely no good that will come of this debacle in Phoenix. Not even a stable team....it will just be a different Owner crying about losses and asking to re-negotiate their lease every year.

If the Phoenix Coyotes exist in 2 to 3 years.....I'll eat a couch cushion.

An 'arena fund' with the private dollars of the owners? As in the BOG members actually pay for the arenas they operate their business out of instead of the tax payers? That's not how the gig operates in much of the USA. Tax payers pay for the arenas which are then given to the billionaire owners and the millionaire players. This principle is one of the main reasons the NHL is bending over backwards to save the Coyotes in Glendale. I think you've got the priorities of the BOGs a little mixed up.

GHOST

 

[TheLegend]

@lockstock

Listen, it was a question that required only a one, two, or three digit answer. All I wanted was a general feeling of what folks down in Az felt about how long it would take to "right the ship".

Why?, because over the past five or six threads (or more?) on this issue, that's been one of the prevailing themes AND seeing as though it's looking like the team is going to stay put, I posed the question.

Don't you think Phx fans are capable of making a reasonable assertion as to how long that would take?, I do.

Now, on to the question?

I'll answer this with my own question....

Given all that this franchise has been through.... and taking all factors in consideration..... how long do YOU think it should take to rebuild a fan base? You've stated more than once you lived here at one time, so you do know the area.

Point being it won't matter what any Phoenix fans says..... like everything else it will get bent beyond all meaning. Just like it has been from the beginning.

 

[Niagara67]

Several people have mentioned that the NHL should not give up on PHX/Glendale because it would be a bad example & deterence for other cities that would potentially build & pay for new arenas.

Well, if Glendale goes bankrupt sometime during the next 25 years trying to publically fund a money-losing team, they may become a poster child for what other municipalities should not do. Perhaps in the future, when deciding whether to fund new arenas, other city councils may end up saying "let's not become another Glendale, Arizona".

So either way, Coyotes stay or go, it will likely change the landscape as far as publically-funded arenas go.

 

[RECCE]

I'll answer this with my own question....

Given all that this franchise has been through.... and taking all factors in consideration..... how long do YOU think it should take to rebuild a fan base? You've stated more than once you lived here at one time, so you do know the area.

I've lived their?

I'll have to look back at my posts but, as far as I recall, I've been their only once and that was in 2009 for Christmas to visit the folks and took in one Coyotes games (Van vs Phx)

In just a little over two weeks it'll be twice.

But I digress, I'll leave the question to you, I could give you my best guess but that would be biased and skew the results of this highly sophisticated scientific poll.

EDIT:

Point being it won't matter what any Phoenix fans says..... like everything else it will get bent beyond all meaning. Just like it has been from the beginning.

So you're telling me that if you would have simply said "IMHO, I think it would take at least five years to get the attendance up to a respectable standard say, 13,000k on average" That would have been twisted and bent into...what?

 

[AllByDesign]

So, Campbell is credible and Burnside, the writer who earlier this summer was extolled for reporting TNSE made an offer and the Coyotes were on way to Winnipeg if local sale could didn't happen, is not?

My re-quote on Burnside on the other thread was not made in an effort to put his professional standards into disrepute. It was more of a general insight that all of the media outlets are taking a crumb that they have been given and then running it into the endzone as if they have found the perverbial touchdown. No media personalities have ever been given 'the ball'.

It is more of amusement to me I suppose that the media has claimed finality on numerous occasions and changed that resolution ad nauseum.

 

[Whileee]

what's the over/under on COG getting this done?

I still think it is more likely than not that the COG will approve the newest lease. It is almost certain that they will not provide direct subsidies (they can't), so any heavy lifting that might be required for subsidies will fall to the CFD. So, I would say that the probability that the COG approves a lease is upwards of 90% (they approved JR's MOU unanimously).

I am less certain about the likelihood that financial hurdles (establishing the CFD and recruiting business owners, etc.) and legal issues will be resolved. I am also uncertain about how things will play out politically in the current climate. Folks in all municipalities are getting very nervous about their budgets and the extent to which they are seen to be "bailing out" businesses. I don't think anyone can contemplate the odds on these issues being resolved until the lease is made public.

 

[Fugu]

Of course. Just wish someone could post a link to the Burnside article for another perspective.

Fine. My kids never pouted much, but if they had, I probably would have caved.

This story about "Relocation not going to happen" is probably best for the BOG Meeting thread, but could probably go into any thread on relo, and the QC, Atlanta threads too.


http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/2346/relocation-not-going-to-happen


It's still a bunch of emotional gibberish. Campbell is of a similar cloth.