It makes me feel very warm and fuzzy inside that he admitted it was a mistake to leave WPG & QC, yes. And you make good points. Having said that, I think Phoenix is a viable market. They should have never moved the team to Glendale, and Moyes did extensive damage to the brand. However, I understand the importance of having a team in Arizona. A national US TV contract would benefit all teams, including Canadian teams, and including possible future teams in Canada. There are teams that are struggling and could be moved to Winnipeg or Quebec (if they build an arena) without jeapordizing the dream TV contract. NYI would be perfect to relocate to Winnipeg - the owner wants to sell, attendance is poor, and it would still leave 2 teams in Greater New York. If one team is enough for all of Southern Ontario then surely 2 teams is more than enough for Greater New York (Devils & Rangers).
Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore (UPD #443ff 14-Dec agenda/lease links)
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It makes me feel very warm and fuzzy inside that he admitted it was a mistake to leave WPG & QC, yes. And you make good points. Having said that, I think Phoenix is a viable market. They should have never moved the team to Glendale, and Moyes did extensive damage to the brand. However, I understand the importance of having a team in Arizona. A national US TV contract would benefit all teams, including Canadian teams, and including possible future teams in Canada. There are teams that are struggling and could be moved to Winnipeg or Quebec (if they build an arena) without jeapordizing the dream TV contract. NYI would be perfect to relocate to Winnipeg - the owner wants to sell, attendance is poor, and it would still leave 2 teams in Greater New York. If one team is enough for all of Southern Ontario then surely 2 teams is more than enough for Greater New York (Devils & Rangers).
3 things to make a franchise work: Building, Market, Owner
Winnipeg did not have an owner or arena, true. Phoenix does not have an owner or market. Different but similar situations, 1 out of 3 requirements met. All I am saying is that the NHL did more to save Phoenix than they did Winnipeg. And if they purhased and managed the Jets until an arena was built and an owner was found, an arena would have been built and an owner would have been found.
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
RECCE
The Dog House
OK, seems like the Phx posters here have it made, they say it takes time but if in three years things still haven't worked out they'll just say more time is needed.
So, put a number on it, I'm more than willing to follow it and that way we all can reference your post, just in case anyone wants.
But hey, who am I kidding, you won't put a number on it anyways.
Maybe I should switch sides, pretty sweet deal having an open ended time frame.
EDIT: Another drive by?
2nd E: Of course, the easy way out is to log off after you've been called on a post, rather than just answer the question....
Well, since rt turned tail and ran, any other Phx fans want to put a number on it? No need to spell out the why's and what whatfors, just let us know how long you think it should / will take to the organization to "right the ship"?
Evil Doctor
Cryin' Hank crying
You know, this seems curious, last time I checked 25 was greater than 7, unless Hulsizer is saying different things in private than in public. Nah, no one ever does that....
Alberta Yote
Owns the Yotes
I believe every new owner in the past several years or longer has agreed to a 7 year commitment. I also expect that most or all of them are completely commited to keeping their teams right where they are for much longer than that.You know, this seems curious, last time I checked 25 was greater than 7, unless Hulsizer is saying different things in private than in public. Nah, no one ever does that....
I guess what I'm saying is, what's your point?
AllByDesign
Who's this ABD guy??
You know, this seems curious, last time I checked 25 was greater than 7, unless Hulsizer is saying different things in private than in public. Nah, no one ever does that....
I believe that there is a difference in expectation between The City of Glendale and the NHL. The NHL places a 7 year mandate, while the owners of the arena would like more assurances than that which the NHL requires. Perpetuity would please them but would likely settle for 25 years.
Evil Doctor
Cryin' Hank crying
Sigh, the point is that Hulsizer is saying publicly that he wants to keep the team in Phoenix for 25 years (or more precisely that 25 years from now this will seem like a smart investment, meaning of course that the Coyotes will still be in Phoenix at that point.) So if Hulsizer has publicly committed to keeping the Coyotes in Phoenix, why is Bettman saying that Hulsizer needs to do that?
Alberta Yote
Owns the Yotes
Because the NHL has required a formal 7 year commitment in past ownership changes and that appears to be one of their standard conditions.
Sigh.
kdb209
Registered User
- Jan 26, 2005
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You know, this seems curious, last time I checked 25 was greater than 7, unless Hulsizer is saying different things in private than in public. Nah, no one ever does that....
The 7-year and the 25-year are two separate commitments to two different parties - the standard 7-year Consent Agreement that the NHL requires from all new owners and the 25-years remaining on a new lease agreement (AMULA) with CoG (modulo any out clauses that CoG may negotiate).
After 7-years an owner may seek approval for relocation from the League (of course, the League reserves the right to waive the agreement and allow an earlier move at it's discretion), but the owner would still be bound by any AMULA with CoG - requiring a negotiated out clause, buy-out, or bankruptcy (with pursuant damages arguments that Judge Baum sidestepped finally litigated).
See: Whalers, Hartford.
Karmanos bought them, the NHL would like us to believe that he signed the 7-year clause just like everyone else, but he publicly committed to keeping the team there for 5 years. Even though all the conditions that Hartford had to meet to avoid relo were met, the team was in North Carolina 4 years later, even though the closest "NHL" arena at the time was in Greensboro, 70 miles away.
From this, we learn the following:
- The 7-year clause is essentially meaningless as the NHL only enforces it when it's convenient for their agenda
- The "certain term" commitment that Bettman was referring to can be defined as, until Hulsy has had enough of the money losing in Glendale and can get out of his lease reasonably easy.
Fidel Astro
Registered User
It's nice, but I don't think he can get out of it that easily. While all of his pro-Winnipeg (and, to a lesser extent, pro-Quebec) talk of late is earning him a few points with Canadian hockey fans, Bettman needs to stop talking about the error and start actively working to correct it. I think only then Canadians will ease up on him.
Either give us our teams back or let us flog you in public outside the Manitoba Legislature. Pick one, Gary.*
*It should be obvious that this is a joke.
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Alberta Yote
Owns the Yotes
While I want the Coyotes to remain in Phoenix I'm an original Jets fan as well so I'd shell out some cash if the public flogging was a pay per view event.
You need to stop spewing this out. Why should some sucker (Hulsizer) or some unfortunate group of people (the citizens of Glendale) have to be on the hook for the colossal blunder made by a bunch of politicians in 2002 who decided it was a good idea to build an NHL arena in Glendale?
If avoidance of this "dangerous precedent" was the main goal of the NHL, why are they refusing to lose even $1 out of this whole Phoenix mess? If they had to keep the team in Glendale for the future benefit of other teams that want free arenas, they should be willing to cough up some cash, stomach some of the losses, take a discount on the sale price, etc.
Here's an idea, how about if a municipality wants to build an NHL arena, they do some homework and make darn sure that NHL hockey will be supported in that municipality, instead of expecting the NHL to find a patsy to soak up the losses in perpetuity?
kdb209
Registered User
- Jan 26, 2005
- 14,870
- 6
The 7-Year Consent Agreement is not their to protect the team or city - it's there to protect the League against an owner going Al Davis and trying to move without League consent. The existing restrictions in the NHL Constitution and By-Laws are subject to Anti Trust challange - the Consent Agreement, accepted to by the owner as a condition of purchase, is not.
Plus the franchise comes pre-hung with Stanley cup banners. gotta get my throwback mike bossy jets jersey
Fidel Astro
Registered User
Apparently NHL hockey is supported in that municipality, though.
I think they just had a little problem with "bad ownership"? Or maybe it was that the arena was too far away? No, I've got it, a football game is happening that night, so people can't show up. I mean, it's a weeknight. Um...I mean, I'm getting my hair cut, so I just can't make it.
AllByDesign
Who's this ABD guy??
Winnipeg is not a priority for the NHL nor is Quebec. Winnipeg is a stop gap... a case of last resort. If team a fails and we need a quick exit, enter TNSE.
There is zero priority in this market for the NHL. These desperate small Canadian markets are great for this situation. You can pander to them with the 'Oh of course 15,000 is big enough for the NHL'... "ooooh we need to correct a mistake we made in the past'. It gets everyone all warm and fuzzy, but it just keeps the palate wet in case they need to move a team. Otherwise there no intent on returning to this market.
If it weren't for the WHA, there never would have been NHL teams in Quebec City or Winnipeg. Likely wouldn't be one in Edmonton for that matter. Deserve or demand pays no matter in today's NHL. Large market presence is the priority. Note I never mentioned large hockey market presence, because most of the hockey market is un-served.
It was the reality in 96 and is the reality today. The NHL owes Winnipeg nothing. The only part that the NHL cares about Winnipeg is that Jonathan Toews was conceived here. Its time to face facts my friend. Winnipeg may get a team back... it may even be the Phoenix franchise... but only as half measures.
Alberta Yote
Owns the Yotes
kdb209
Registered User
- Jan 26, 2005
- 14,870
- 6
I ran out of gas. I, I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake. A terrible flood. Locusts. IT WASN'T MY FAULT, I SWEAR TO GOD.
Tom ServoMST3K
In search of a Steinbach Hero
Im thinking that GB might drop winnipegs name again to put pressure on the CoG for the upcoming meeting
(And then poloticians in glendale talk trash about the canadian media)
AllByDesign
Who's this ABD guy??
Are we writing a new novella... 'Failed Franchise Excuses'
#1 Best Seller at Barnes and Knobles in Phoenix, Atlanta, New Orleans, Buffalo...
Moe Mantha
Registered User
Yeah, but that's like an hour long rush hour trip to the book store from Downtown Phoenix.... I'll pass.
Not to mention Barnes and Noble's uncertain ownership group. Once a new owner buys the chain, I might consider getting the book....
RECCE
The Dog House
@lockstock
Listen, it was a question that required only a one, two, or three digit answer. All I wanted was a general feeling of what folks down in Az felt about how long it would take to "right the ship".
Why?, because over the past five or six threads (or more?) on this issue, that's been one of the prevailing themes AND seeing as though it's looking like the team is going to stay put, I posed the question.
Don't you think Phx fans are capable of making a reasonable assertion as to how long that would take?, I do.
Now, on to the question?
Listen, it was a question that required only a one, two, or three digit answer. All I wanted was a general feeling of what folks down in Az felt about how long it would take to "right the ship".
Why?, because over the past five or six threads (or more?) on this issue, that's been one of the prevailing themes AND seeing as though it's looking like the team is going to stay put, I posed the question.
Don't you think Phx fans are capable of making a reasonable assertion as to how long that would take?, I do.
Now, on to the question?
Or maybe, he will just whisper "$25 million" and "escrow" in their ears... that will get their sphincters clenching.
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