Panarin: Yes or No?

[eco's bones]

Just skating in the NHL helps them.

It's like getting that sweet internship.

Please don't give me the loser culture thing. Crosby shrugged it off among other hall of famers doing the same thing.

But would you say McDavid, Hall, Draisatl, Nugent-Hopkins and Yakupov and Eichel have shrugged it off as well as Crosby? You could say that I guess but....losing cultures often get engrained into players and particularly young ones. It often takes an intervention--them going to another team to get them back on track.

The thing is every player has a different personality and not everyone is Crosby and the thing is as well that it certainly didn't hurt Crosby at all to have an elite monster like Malkin along for the ride or to be living the first couple years in Mario Lemieux's house--Mario pretty much having been through the same thing Crosby was going through.

Players can get demoralized though and just skating in the NHL does not necessarily help anyone and that's not just a question of talent. Take a look at Yakupov for instance--he had tons of talent--some people were thinking mini-Ovechkin. They just threw him out there the first couple years--let him go and there were glimmers here and there but his game never developed. Losing a lot certainly didn't help him and it kind of stunted Nugent-Hopkins too.

 

[eco's bones]

Or, you bring them over now so they can adjust and get their struggles out of the way during a season that doesn’t really matter and then be ready to go when the team is ready to ascend in 20-21.

I'd steer them clear of the shit show.

 

[Synergy27]

Two fairly clear camps forming here. I think I’ll just say that i believe there is a difference between creating a losing culture and overall poor management. The Rangers last year, particularly due to Quinn, proved to me that I don’t need to worry about a losing mentality setting in. Now I need to hope that the management team gets the end game right so that Quinn is given the full stable of horses he will need to succeed.

 

[jratelle19]

Yeah, the survey seems to be almost even in sentiment among the fans here and the fans that I speak to outside of this forum. I am not in favor of signing Panarin although I do feel that the "yes" voters do present a compelling argument. I feel that if the Rangers could have one more year of adding and developing our prospects, had a Panarin been available in 2020, then I would pull the trigger on a deal. He is about to enter his prime and he is a stellar playmaker. I just feel that right now is not the right time for such a deal. Bringing in a great yet expensive player like him would only lay out the temptation to bring in other big name FAs sooner, only giving our younger guys less valuable ice time needed in order to develop. I am in favor of bringing in a few vets, but only on short term deals to provide some guidance for the kids. Yes, we can't just assume these kids will all pan out the way we foresee, but we do need to fully test them and let them have their growing pains, with the "patience" that both JD and Gorton have spoken of. We need vets who, in a year or two, will have their ice time taken by these kids, and not the other way around. Just my humble opinion.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

From the potential looks of what the Rangers core will likely look like, now your adding Kakko,Kraptsov, Fox combined with the likely improvements of the Chytl's,Howdens and Lias's of the world even withought adding Panarin, you and any of the others hoping for us to be a lotto team are likely going to be pretty dissapointed as IMO, I think we are going to be too good to be as bad as you and some others in here want.

I know I've said that a few times and maybe I'm on an island here but so be it but I feel with the culture Quinn has already installed combined with the talent influx already, this team presently constituted is pretty damn close to being a bubblish teams as is. You add a Panarin, yeah I think we'd likely be right there till the very end for a playoff spot. And that would be a really good thing for a young team like ours to potentially be better than expected and not be a lottery team. What's great about it, nothing changes with the rebuild as we still have a ton of picks coming in, Gorton continues doing his magic and players start to feel that winning culture.

I mean ****, who in here thought the Islanders were going to make the playoffs last year let alone win the friggen division having lost Tavares and their only true offensive threat being Barzov? Once again maybe I'm on an island here but I look at their team and I see them with less talent than us and they are just as much a playoff bubble team as us.

And so if that is the case and we miss out on the Lefrenniers, Byfields,Gunlers and Lundells because we ended up being too good than so be it. That in no way effects how good the rebuild has been going and is going to continue to go. You add Panarin...even better. I guess what I'm saying is...I think the "tank one more year to get into the lotto" is probably not going to happen and peeps in here should embrace that and not be upset about it...

The D stinks and anything those young guys would be doing would just be replacing the production lost by Hayes and Zucc. Panarin isn't signing here. Making the playoffs next year keeps us in, as Gorton put it, "The dreaded middle." This team had the least amount of ROW in the league last season. This "winning culture" myth needs to die a quick death. Want to build a winning culture? Get the best young players you can as quickly as you can. Want to know how to do that? Draft at the top of the draft. Getting bounced in four games after being the 8th seed doesn't promote a "winning culture" either, it promotes a "culture of mediocrity."

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I agree totally that a top 6 of Shatty,Fox,DeAngelo,Skeji,Staal and/or Smith/Claesson/Pionk/Hajeck needs some work but it's far from the worst in the league. Who knows if Fox won't be a revelation in this first year? Maybe just maybe what we saw of DeAngelo 2nd half of the season wasn't a mirage afterall and he's ready to become a solid top 4 paring.

We've seen guys like Krug come in and make pretty big impacts their first years....Fox has similar pedigree. But that's not the point. Point is the defense tho obviously an area that needs to be improved has potential and some steller goaltending can help overcome some defensive inadequacies.

Withought going into it to deeply, the other teams in our division other than the Caps all have warts and all. And in the other division, let me know other than Tampa,Leafs and Bruins, who these other mighty teams are that are that much better than us? I looked and looked closely and I see major question marks and warts on all these other teams other than the one's I mentioned.

So I disagree that our defensive corps will be the reason we don't compete for a bubble spot. Our offense and goaltending should be fine. If anything I think the reason we'll end up not being a lottery team is not because we are that good yet but more because the rest of our competition isn't that much better than us.

The Panthers will be a much better team than the Rangers after they sign Panarin and Bob.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Two fairly clear camps forming here. I think I’ll just say that i believe there is a difference between creating a losing culture and overall poor management. The Rangers last year, particularly due to Quinn, proved to me that I don’t need to worry about a losing mentality setting in. Now I need to hope that the management team gets the end game right so that Quinn is given the full stable of horses he will need to succeed.

This should be shouted from every rooftop in manhattan. Losing games doesn't create a "losing culture", bad management creates it when it puts the wrong coaching and veteran players in place that perpetuate that. Young players who play hard together and for each other but lose don't create a losing culture.

In before WHAT ABOUT EDMONTON - see my previous post on Crazy people v. Sane people.

 

[Leetch3]

The Panthers will be a much better team than the Rangers after they sign Panarin and Bob.

how much $$ do they need to give panarin and bob plus big raises next year to hoffman, dadonov and borgstrom to put themselves in a marner situation when its time to re-sign barkov and huberdeau? thats what i'm rooting for lol

 

[mas0764]

personally i think their are pros and cons to signing Panarin at this point in time-and its something we should all be in agreement in.

Of course.

 

[mas0764]

To be clear - I’m not against it if they choose to continue to bottom out. I don’t think there will necessarily be irreparable harm to guys like Chytil and Andersson. Bottoming out is one approach to getting good again. And in fact, if we hadn’t gotten lucky with the lottery this year in getting Kakko, and we had ended up getting Zegras at 7 or something, I’d still be clamoring more for tanking to get a top shelf star.

But we have one now in Kakko. The arrow is now pointed up whether we are ready for it or not, because Kakko may be a 60 point impact forward very soon. He may not need a two or three year development window. For that matter, we basically appear to have hit the jackpot with Kravtsov as well, and he doesn’t seem like he’s gonna need the extended development time of any of the players drafted around him.

We have two incoming top 6 or even top line players who don’t project out for two or three more years, but maybe as soon as this year or next as top guys.

So if we want to bottom out to finish bottom 3, then you better trade Kreider and anything else that isn’t bolted down. Cause otherwise you’re gonna finish 10th worst and you will need lightning to strike again to win the lottery.

If you’re not gonna trade Kreider and everyone else, then I’d much rather shift gears and sign Panarin, who will continue to be elite by the time Kravtsov and Kakko reach elite status themselves. You’re not hampering your flexibility cause 75% of the money you’d spend on Panarin would be spent on Kreider anyway.

If they want to strip down, I’m ok with that, but again, this team isn’t ready-made for a bottom 3 finish right now. They will be better than that. So what’s the difference between 8 or 12? You could win the lottery from either of those draft positions.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

how much $$ do they need to give panarin and bob plus big raises next year to hoffman, dadonov and borgstrom to put themselves in a marner situation when its time to re-sign barkov and huberdeau? thats what i'm rooting for lol

And then who swoops in in a situation like that? A team with a metric ton of quality assets like the Rangers.

 

[broadwayblue]

Probably 7 x $10-$11 m.

That's what I figured. I'm torn on Panarin. It's unlikely we are winning a championship in year one or two. What kind of player will Panarin be in the last 5 years of that deal? Realistically that's our window. And what will our cap space look like 3 or 4 years from now when Kakko, Kravstov and Co. need long term deals? In a perfect world we would be able to sign Panarin next summer or in the summer of 2021. But we don't know who or if someone else will be available during the next two summers, so that fact adds to the argument to sign him.

 

[True Blue]

So Panarin makes sense for the "long term success of the team" because of his salary being 6.8, or whatever, instead of 11M per? Seems to counter your arguments that by the time we're "contending" he's going to be ineffective and declining. The salary shouldn't matter if that's the case.

You cannot view things in a vacuum. It is not just about getting a player and all other factors be dammed. Do I like Panarin as a player? Sure, who doesn't? Do I want to commit $77m over 7 years with NTC/NMC? No now is not the time or the place for such a deal. But are you telling me that he is signing for $6.5? That is a world of difference. Panarin on such a contract will be tradeable even when his career is on downside.

But since he IS NOT signing such a deal, I do not view such a transaction to be good for the team long-term. As such, I am against it. As you yourself have stated, that the term, dollars, NTC/NMC are all factors that make you not want to sign him. Which means that you do not see the entire transaction as being good for the team long-term. Because if you thought that the entire deal was good long term, then you would be behind the signing.

This is where your argument falters to me. At first you state that Panarin would be good for short, medium and long term. You then proceed to state that the term, dollars and movement clauses make you say "no" to signing him. To me that signals that you believe such a deal is truly not good long term. One cannot simply judge signing a player in a vacuum. That is fantasy. When discussing signing a player, one naturally needs to take his contract into consideration as it makes a big difference. That's the difference between discussing real life and discussing fantasy in EA Sports.

 

[True Blue]

Frankly it sounds like the anti-Panarin rebuttal is what is copypasta. Just a bunch of repeated cliches from some posters about ruining draft standing and fears about overpriced veterans.

If you are going to start to discuss other posters reasoning, please don't just cherry pick a few to enhance your stance.

 

[True Blue]

From the potential looks of what the Rangers core will likely look like, now your adding Kakko,Kraptsov, Fox combined with the likely improvements of the Chytl's,Howdens and Lias's of the world even withought adding Panarin, you and any of the others hoping for us to be a lotto team are likely going to be pretty dissapointed as IMO, I think we are going to be too good to be as bad as you and some others in here want.

Are you of the viewpoint that Kakko & Kravstov will be able to step in and replace the production lost by Hayes and Zucc? Because if they can't, I am not sure how you are getting to the conclusion that the Rangers will be better. While we all home that Chytil, Howden and Lias take meaningful steps, expecting them to suddenly become 20+ goal scorers is not realistic. Also discounting that they may only take baby steps forward is not realistic. Or take some steps backward. We can certainly discuss Kreider being here, but he may well not be. Then who is replacing that production? Fox may well make the team, but expecting him to be a top pairing defenseman is a view not seeped in reality. DeAngelo had 26 points last year. Skej had 17. Where do you see a rookie defenseman producing? You are also not accounting for another year of depreciation of Smith, Staal & Shattenkirk who are ALL still here. Do you believe that Henke finds the fountain of youth> Even if Georgiev takes huge steps forward, the defense around him is at best pedestrian.

Yeah, sounds like a lottery team to me.

I guess what I'm saying is...I think the "tank one more year to get into the lotto" is probably not going to happen and peeps in here should embrace that and not be upset about it...

To which the rejoinder is that while the team is not going to tank, the lottery is a very likely scenario. Peeps in here should get used to the thought.

If anything I think the reason we'll end up not being a lottery team is not because we are that good yet but more because the rest of our competition isn't that much better than us.

If wishes were only fishes........OK. I'll bite. What teams do you believe are in the same boat as the Rangers? Do you truly believe that the Caps are really not much better or worse than the Rangers? Really?

 

[broadwayblue]

To which the rejoinder is that while the team is not going to tank, the lottery is a very likely scenario. Peeps in here should get used to the thought.

What's wrong with being a lottery team for one more year? As long as they play hard every night and continue to grow as a team I have no problem going to the well again next June. One more excellent draft will really go a long way to cement this team going forward. They aren't winning a championship next year, so the next best thing is having a shot at more high end talent. Let them sniff the playoffs and maybe win a round in 2021.

 

[Kocur Dill]

Yeah, the survey seems to be almost even in sentiment among the fans here and the fans that I speak to outside of this forum. I am not in favor of signing Panarin although I do feel that the "yes" voters do present a compelling argument. I feel that if the Rangers could have one more year of adding and developing our prospects, had a Panarin been available in 2020, then I would pull the trigger on a deal. He is about to enter his prime and he is a stellar playmaker. I just feel that right now is not the right time for such a deal. Bringing in a great yet expensive player like him would only lay out the temptation to bring in other big name FAs sooner, only giving our younger guys less valuable ice time needed in order to develop. I am in favor of bringing in a few vets, but only on short term deals to provide some guidance for the kids. Yes, we can't just assume these kids will all pan out the way we foresee, but we do need to fully test them and let them have their growing pains, with the "patience" that both JD and Gorton have spoken of. We need vets who, in a year or two, will have their ice time taken by these kids, and not the other way around. Just my humble opinion.

Pavelski @ 3/$20m or 4/$25m

Fits what Quinn wants to accomplish on the ice, and what Davidson/Gorts are preaching to the press.

Might need to go $7m per if he's being chased heavy day 1, maybe get my first numbers if it goes a week or two and he's still in play.

I'd consider it as long as the years match up to him being replaced from within and off the roster in a few years, but left his mark as a mentor. May need to throw a higher AAv if that's the case.

Then again, he may want to chase the Cup and not even consider us at any price.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Pavelski @ 3/$20m or 4/$25m

Fits what Quinn wants to accomplish on the ice, and what Davidson/Gorts are preaching to the press.

Might need to go $7m per if he's being chased heavy day 1, maybe get my first numbers if it goes a week or two and he's still in play.

I'd consider it as long as the years match up to him being replaced from within and off the roster in a few years, but left his mark as a mentor. May need to throw a higher AAv if that's the case.

Then again, he may want to chase the Cup and not even consider us at any price.

Pavelski is pretty much the exact opposite of what Gorts/Davidson are preaching, and would be a horrible idea.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

What's wrong with being a lottery team for one more year? As long as they play hard every night and continue to grow as a team I have no problem going to the well again next June. One more excellent draft will really go a long way to cement this team going forward. They aren't winning a championship next year, so the next best thing is having a shot at more high end talent. Let them sniff the playoffs and maybe win a round in 2021.

To some around here them being bad for another year will somehow doom the team into adopting a "losing culture" that will ruin the team.

To the rational people here, absolutely nothing wrong with trying to get a top pick in a draft that is pegged to be better than 2019. Just getting into the top 10 in 2020 has a great chance of landing us an impact forward.

 

[Kocur Dill]

Pavelski is pretty much the exact opposite of what Gorts/Davidson are preaching, and would be a horrible idea.

On rebuilding getting younger. Okay. I'm not talking signing him to a 7 year deal.

On being responsible, strong culture, strong ethics, playing balls out every shift. I'd say he's exactly what they are talking about. He's 34 and I said 3 or 4 year deal. He bridges the gap without being an anchor. Sort of like when we brought in Prospal to get Dubi, Cally, Arty going.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Yeah, the survey seems to be almost even in sentiment among the fans here and the fans that I speak to outside of this forum. I am not in favor of signing Panarin although I do feel that the "yes" voters do present a compelling argument. I feel that if the Rangers could have one more year of adding and developing our prospects, had a Panarin been available in 2020, then I would pull the trigger on a deal. He is about to enter his prime and he is a stellar playmaker. I just feel that right now is not the right time for such a deal. Bringing in a great yet expensive player like him would only lay out the temptation to bring in other big name FAs sooner, only giving our younger guys less valuable ice time needed in order to develop. I am in favor of bringing in a few vets, but only on short term deals to provide some guidance for the kids. Yes, we can't just assume these kids will all pan out the way we foresee, but we do need to fully test them and let them have their growing pains, with the "patience" that both JD and Gorton have spoken of. We need vets who, in a year or two, will have their ice time taken by these kids, and not the other way around. Just my humble opinion.

This is very intelligent post and I agree with the general approach.

Panarin is a tough one to call though for me. I've been hanging out in the Yes gang. For me, I'm under the impression that Kreider will not be resigned. That leaves a hole on the left wing, whether it's at the draft, at the deadline or God forbid during next summer and we lose him for nothing.

If Panarin would be a perfect pickup next summer then why not get him this year and have one less year to deal with on his contract down the road, one year younger. Signing FAs always scare me. The term the hit. Its rough. But I feel like he slots into this team very well. He's a right handed shot (something we are sorely lacking in the lineup up front) who plays the left wing. He's not exactly blocking any of the kids currently coming up, as the Rangers are weak on that side. He would really solidify the PP. He's got a rocket of a shot and you can play him where Zib currently is or you use him at the point or even on the right side. He's been used all over and would make that top unit the most dangerous its been in years.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

On rebuilding getting younger. Okay. I'm not talking signing him to a 7 year deal.

On being responsible, strong culture, strong ethics, playing balls out every shift. I'd say he's exactly what they are talking about. He's 34 and I said 3 or 4 year deal. He bridges the gap without being an anchor. Sort of like when we brought in Prospal to get Dubi, Cally, Arty going.

Pavelski is old and injury prone, JD specifically spoke about not signing those types of players.

We already have older veterans on the team who can provide that type of leadership.

When we brought in Prospal this organization was in a completely different place than it is now, that's not a comparible.

It's a bad idea.

 

[eco's bones]

This is very intelligent post and I agree with the general approach.

Panarin is a tough one to call though for me. I've been hanging out in the Yes gang. For me, I'm under the impression that Kreider will not be resigned. That leaves a hole on the left wing, whether it's at the draft, at the deadline or God forbid during next summer and we lose him for nothing.

If Panarin would be a perfect pickup next summer then why not get him this year and have one less year to deal with on his contract down the road, one year younger. Signing FAs always scare me. The term the hit. Its rough. But I feel like he slots into this team very well. He's a right handed shot (something we are sorely lacking in the lineup up front) who plays the left wing. He's not exactly blocking any of the kids currently coming up, as the Rangers are weak on that side. He would really solidify the PP. He's got a rocket of a shot and you can play him where Zib currently is or you use him at the point or even on the right side. He's been used all over and would make that top unit the most dangerous its been in years.

Apart from the cap amount we won't be giving up any assets to sign Panarin. If we're moving Kreider we're saving money there and getting assets back, we'll be saving more money if we move other forwards--Vesey, Fast, Strome, Namestnikov--going into a rental situation this year, we'll be losing more cap again when Lundqvist, Shattenkirk, Staal and Smith go off the books after 20-21. It's quite possible that not a single one of those players out of both groups will be a Ranger come July 1, 2021. By then we'll also have at least two cap raises and be heading into a third. So we could wait a couple years and make a trade and give up some of our young assets to bring in a star or we could cut to the chase and try to sign Panarin now and not give them up. The idea that the money won't be there though is ridiculous--anyone who looks at what the Rangers has accumulated must understand that for the next several years we are going to have lots of guys on ELC's and 2nd contracts.

 

[True Blue]

What's wrong with being a lottery team for one more year? As long as they play hard every night and continue to grow as a team I have no problem going to the well again next June. One more excellent draft will really go a long way to cement this team going forward. They aren't winning a championship next year, so the next best thing is having a shot at more high end talent. Let them sniff the playoffs and maybe win a round in 2021.

At last check, I was not discussing the merits or detriments of being a lottery team.

 

[Maximus]

Are you of the viewpoint that Kakko & Kravstov will be able to step in and replace the production lost by Hayes and Zucc? Because if they can't, I am not sure how you are getting to the conclusion that the Rangers will be better. While we all home that Chytil, Howden and Lias take meaningful steps, expecting them to suddenly become 20+ goal scorers is not realistic. Also discounting that they may only take baby steps forward is not realistic. Or take some steps backward. We can certainly discuss Kreider being here, but he may well not be. Then who is replacing that production? Fox may well make the team, but expecting him to be a top pairing defenseman is a view not seeped in reality. DeAngelo had 26 points last year. Skej had 17. Where do you see a rookie defenseman producing? You are also not accounting for another year of depreciation of Smith, Staal & Shattenkirk who are ALL still here. Do you believe that Henke finds the fountain of youth> Even if Georgiev takes huge steps forward, the defense around him is at best pedestrian.

Yeah, sounds like a lottery team to me.

To which the rejoinder is that while the team is not going to tank, the lottery is a very likely scenario. Peeps in here should get used to the thought.

If wishes were only fishes........OK. I'll bite. What teams do you believe are in the same boat as the Rangers? Do you truly believe that the Caps are really not much better or worse than the Rangers? Really?

I actually did mention in the post right after the one you are disecting that "Withought going into it to deeply, the other teams in our division other than the Caps all have warts and all. And in the other division, let me know other than Tampa,Leafs and Bruins, who these other mighty teams are that are that much better than us? I looked and looked closely and I see major question marks and warts on all these other teams other than the one's I mentioned"

So no, I don't think we are close to the Caps in the Metro as I think they are clearly head and shoulders above everyone else in the division presently constitued. But I do think there are some warts on the Island...I want to see Lehner if he's back do what he did again. And other than Barzal who exactly is keeping Quinn and other coaches up at night?

Pittsburgh as the playoffs showed are starting to show some cracks in the armor. Peeps think our defensive core is shaky...look at the Pens? Who is the real Murray? Definite questions in Pittsburgh as I'm not convinced both of them are going over 90-95 points next year...both of those teams. Neither am I convinced the Jackets won't stumble some if and when they lose Panarin and Bob.

I like the makeup of the Canes as much as anyone...fun team to watch and even root for when you aren't playing them. But you really are going to think your going on a long playoff run again with a Mrzak/McHilleney tag team? I don't but who knows. I do think the Canes are probably better than us.

And I do feel reasonably confident players like DeAngelo, Chytl, Howdon,Lias under the tutolage of Quinn and his staff take next steps. And yes I do feel reasonably confident that withought even playing an NHL game, both Kakko and Kravtsov are going to make impacts this year. From what I've seen of Kakko, I don't see why he couldn't make an impact on the level of a Pettersson of Vancouver. And yes I think our goaltending will be fine as I feel fairly confident Hank for 40-45 games and Georgie for the rest will be sufficient enough.

Bottom line is sure there are alot of "if's" but they are reasonable if's...not pie in the sky...out in lala land stuff. I just look at the makeup of this team, the additions of some of the kids coupled with the fact that other than Washington, Boston, Tampa and Toronto, their is not even close to another team I see is that is clearly superior to ours and that doesn't even factor in if we sign Panarin which obviously is still up in the air. Now if Florida gets him, tho I'm not enamored with their goaltending at all, maybe I can see them better. But I'll wait and see what they do before I start anointing Florida better than anyone including us.

So once again...will I be crestfallen if we finish in a lottery slot? No not at all. Will I feel crestfallen if we don't sign Panarin? That's a bit tougher cause I do want him and think he'd be a real solid add for the many reasons that have been discussed ad nauseum. But no I won't be that bummed.

I'm not going to go to Vegas with this but I just have a gut feeling that this 2019 Ranger roster is going to end up being quite a bit better than some in here think and that the team is going to win more games than some in here hope...that's all.