Panarin: Yes or No?

[Synergy27]

I bet the Knicks would feel a lot better throwing a Zion into the mix of Porzhingis and a bunch of young guys. They tanked their way to the bottom of the league. The lotto didn't bounce their way, their embarrassing embrace of the tank soured the one blue chip they DID have, and now there's questions about whether the top FA guys will want to go to NY (and if they do, it almost certainly won't be enough).

So you are concerned that one more year of sucking is going to “sour” Kakko and Kravstov? I’m not advocating an extended tank. One more year. We are in the end game.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

The Bruins drafted their entire first line with picks between 25 and 71. You can view this fact a few different ways:

1. As proof that you don’t need premium picks to win.

2. As proof that some teams are better at drafting than others.

3. As proof that some teams are “luckier” than others.

The Rangers have never in my lifetime been in bin 2 or 3. That’s why I want to be in bin 1 for once.

You want to be?

 

[smoneil]

It's not a truism to say it's a closed system. It's a demonstrative fact.

Except for the fact that I literally just demonstrated that it isn't, by pointing to the last re-build done by our GM, which he is clearly replicating here. Gorts rebuilds by acquiring VOLUME, not by tanking and throwing all the eggs into one pick. If you were correct, it would be Buffalo or Edmonton in the SCF right now. It isn't.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Except for the fact that I literally just demonstrated that it isn't, by pointing to the last re-build done by our GM, which he is clearly replicating here. Gorts rebuilds by acquiring VOLUME, not by tanking and throwing all the eggs into one pick. If you were correct, it would be Buffalo or Edmonton in the SCF right now. It isn't.

Yeah I'm not sure what happened with Edmonton. It's generally called being an outlier, and this years playoffs have been odd to say the least.

The fact is the overwhelming evidence supports drafting high to get the best players leads to the most success.

And if the board of governors figures out the draft isn't working, well they will just do a switcheroo on the old rules of the league again as they always do.

 

[PuckLuck3043]

You need to let it swirl for like 10 seconds

"YO iz dis guy sayin Jersey is better like this second n ****?"

No. I'm not.

By drafting better than us. Particularly in the scenario I presented.

I can't wait for another season of you bitching and moaning when the Rangers play hard and get points. How did that work out last year for ya?

 

[TheBloodyNine]

It's not a truism to say it's a closed system. It's a demonstrative fact.

These people don’t believe in facts my man, don’t drive yourself crazy.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

I can't wait for another season of you *****ing and moaning when the Rangers play hard and get points. How did that work out last year for ya?

It was a nail biter until they lucked out in the lottery.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

I can't wait for another season of you *****ing and moaning when the Rangers play hard and get points. How did that work out last year for ya?

The Rangers got the 2 overall pick so I’d say worked out good?

 

[smoneil]

So you are concerned that one more year of sucking is going to “sour” Kakko and Kravstov? I’m not advocating an extended tank. One more year. We are in the end game.

I think it's a risk. As I mentioned earlier, when building a team--ESPECIALLY a young team--you want them to develop in a winning culture. When they get used to losing every night, they start developing bad habits. They start playing for themselves rather than buying into a team ideology. I--and others who have built sports programs at different levels--have seen what can happen with that kind of losing culture gets into the room. The only way to get rid of it is to purge the room of any player who has that kind of attitude. It's a problem that usually takes several years to recover from. Sometimes, it seeps in after just a season or two of a losing culture. I don't want to take the risk. They got a great pick this year while still competing in every game (see: vast number of 1-goal games). I don't want the team to sign a bunch of free agents and push for the playoffs. I want to see them sign one guy who will help to replace some of what we traded away so that the team can replicate what they did last year--keep games close and always feel that they can win. A guy like Panarin can fill a decent chunk of the gap left from the Hayes/Zucc/(and inevitably) Kreider trades. And he's still likely to be a contributor when the kids start coming into their own.

 

[mas0764]

Overall I’m a pro-tanker, but screaming about how we’re screwed if we don’t keep tanking is pretty pointless.

Primarily, the Rangers aren’t gonna tank anymore. They are gonna play hard and keep acquiring loser points.

Second, they may already be too good to crack the top 3-4 worst finishes even if they don’t sign Panarin. They will probably need luck to jump up with lottery luck to get elite talent like Byfield or Lafrieniere. Internal developments from the young kids probably mean they more like 6th worst again - or maybe better.

Thirdly, if they do sign Panarin, I’m also not convinced he’d shoot them so far up the standings as to greatly improve their finish in the standings, because while the young talent is improving, it’s also still going to have growing pains; I’d assume a finish more like 8th-12th worst.

Finally, if we are relying on lotto luck, there’s just no telling where lightning strikes. It could be 6th or it could be 13th. If jumping into the top 3 from outside is your aim, you don’t know what spit you need to be in, so one is practically as good as another.

The benefit to “tanking” is that the worse you finish, the better you pick in general: you can only get pushed a maximum of three slots down, but more likely just 1 or 2. So it’s better to finish 4th worst and get pushed to 6th that it is to finish 7th and get pushed to 8th.

But if those are the type of slots we are talking about next season for the Rangers - and I believe we are - then there’s not really a Panarin worth of difference between 8 and 12.

So I’d rather have Panarin too.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

The Rangers got the 2 overall pick so I’d say worked out good?

It's almost as if i said all year...

"shit. i want them to draft in the top 3. if they keep getting these loser points, it lowers that chance. Yes we lucked out by not getting too many points to be out of a good lottery position! I'm so happy. i hope they stick the course for another year or two because we could be f***ing awesome for a decade. Hey maybe even my old man could see another cup! What a good time!"

RangerFan22 Ha! we got a good pick by not doing that great @ReggieDunlop68 !!!

 

[Leetch3]

i've seen multiple people mention how many times they've repeated the same thing so a helpful hint to my fellow brothers and sisters...if you've stated your point 9327 times and the other side hasn't agreed then repeating it once more probably isn't gonna change that but i've been wrong before so maybe #9400 is the magic number and you are almost there

 

[TheBloodyNine]

i've seen multiple people mention how many times they've repeated the same thing so a helpful hint to my fellow brothers and sisters...if you've stated your point 9327 times and the other side hasn't agreed then repeating it once more probably isn't gonna change that but i've been wrong before so maybe #9400 is the magic number and you are almost there

Truer words have not been spoken, but I know from first hand experience how hard it can be when you see someone say something that flys directly in the face of logic and common sense to not want to correct these people and hope they see the light.

 

[eco's bones]

It's the same relative to the cap. They simply can't buy all the bull**** they want.

So they buy some, which makes the team middle fiddle fodder.

I've seen something like this a couple times today but to make progress we'll have to make it to the middle sooner or later---or it's unlikely we're going to be on the bottom one season and on top the next. Like all of a sudden everything is going to fall into place all at once. Thing are likelier to get to where they're going in stages. It's better to make progress sooner IMO--it'll be better for Kakko and the sooner the better for Kravtsov and Chytil and the other kids who are Rangers right now. Better believing they can win on any given night and against any given team. Winning isn't just talent, it's believing and it's attitude and I'd rather not f*** around with any of those things.

If the Rangers are determined to tank this year--they should leave Kakko in Finland and should have left Kravtsov in Russia.

AFAIC Panarin would be a big help to those kids to get their NHL games up to speed faster. That's what we should want.

 

[PuckLuck3043]

The Rangers got the 2 overall pick so I’d say worked out good?

Yes it did, thats my point. I said all last season that finishing bottom 3 in the standings does not guarantee you a top 3 pick but all season long people moaned when we got points. We played hard and competitively for most of the season and still got a great pick. That's a lot better than sucking ass all year.

 

[mas0764]

Yeah I'm not sure what happened with Edmonton. It's generally called being an outlier, and this years playoffs have been odd to say the least.

The fact is the overwhelming evidence supports drafting high to get the best players leads to the most success.

And if the board of governors figures out the draft isn't working, well they will just do a switcheroo on the old rules of the league again as they always do.

Again, lacking nuance.

Tanking and acquiring 2 elite players is how Pittsburgh and Chicago each won multiple Cups this past decade. Of course.

But other teams have picked equally as often in the the top couple selections and have literally nothing to show for it and don’t even appear to be headed in the right direction.

You have to get the top pick in the right year, and you have to also have solid enough organizational stability to take advantage. Pittsburgh and Chicago had or acquired it. Edmonton and Buffalo have not.

I hate to break it to you, but our GM does not appear to be emulating the Pittsburgh model. I see way more similarities to his Boston build, or a team like LA. That may mean two Cups ten years apart but no pure dynasty like Chicago or Pittsburgh. And since there are no Sidney Crosby’s likely in this year or next year’s draft, I’m ok with that.

 

[RGY]

No. Your argument is literally horrible and not what I said.

Is my argument horrible or are you just piss poor at articulating what you are trying to say. How about you explain it better rather than that vague nonsense you spewed out.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Crazy People (CP): What about Edmonton?
Sane People (SP): Edmonton’s rebuilds didn’t work because they have bad management.
CP: What about Buffalo
SP: Again, Buffalo has bad management that’s why it didn’t work out.
CP: Ok, but Arizona, Florida amirite?
SP: They haven’t been successful because they have bad management.
CP: ....
SP: ...
CP: What about Edmonton though!

 

[Off Sides]

It was a nail biter until they lucked out in the lottery.

Yup,

Luck was always going to be part of it, it always will be a factor. Luck and Rangers has not always been a thing, yet if they are not in position to get lucky, no luck.

Beyond that even, no luck next draft lottery, teams can only move so far back. This draft imo has 10-12 forward prospects I believe who have top line ceiling, next draft, early still, may have even a couple more, and a couple others who would fit in the top 2 this draft who may be there at 4-5-6.

While I'm not saying they need to tank, maybe just let things happen naturally, see what happens. If they end up in early lottery that is not a bad outcome for their build. If the youth takes big NHL steps and the team finishes better, that is also great as it means the build is working.

Two good outcomes, Luck need not apply, but if so, even better.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

I've seen something like this a couple times today but to make progress we'll have to make it to the middle sooner or later---or it's unlikely we're going to be on the bottom one season and on top the next. Like all of a sudden everything is going to fall into place all at once. Thing are likelier to get to where they're going in stages. It's better to make progress sooner IMO--it'll be better for Kakko and the sooner the better for Kravtsov and Chytil and the other kids who are Rangers right now. Better believing they can win on any given night and against any given team. Winning isn't just talent, it's believing and it's attitude and I'd rather not **** around with any of those things.

If the Rangers are determined to tank this year--they should leave Kakko in Finland and should have left Kravtsov in Russia.

AFAIC Panarin would be a big help to those kids to get their NHL games up to speed faster. That's what we should want.

Just skating in the NHL helps them.

It's like getting that sweet internship.

Please don't give me the loser culture thing. Crosby shrugged it off among other hall of famers doing the same thing.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Is my argument horrible or are you just piss poor at articulating what you are trying to say. How about you explain it better rather than that vague nonsense you spewed out.

I often articulate rather detailed responses that are read about 3 words in.

 

[Synergy27]

If the Rangers are determined to tank this year--they should leave Kakko in Finland and should have left Kravtsov in Russia.

Or, you bring them over now so they can adjust and get their struggles out of the way during a season that doesn’t really matter and then be ready to go when the team is ready to ascend in 20-21.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

You can't win the lottery unless you buy a ticket. You can't win the NHL lottery unless you are bad. Gotta at least put yourself in a position to be there.

 

[Synergy27]

Yup,

Luck was always going to be part of it, it always will be a factor. Luck and Rangers has not always been a thing, yet if they are not in position to get lucky, no luck.

Beyond that even, no luck next draft lottery, teams can only move so far back. This draft imo has 10-12 forward prospects I believe who have top line ceiling, next draft, early still, may have even a couple more, and a couple others who would fit in the top 2 this draft who may be there at 4-5-6.

While I'm not saying they need to tank, maybe just let things happen naturally, see what happens. If they end up in early lottery that is not a bad outcome for their build. If the youth takes big NHL steps and the team finishes better, that is also great as it means the build is working.

Two good outcomes, Luck need not apply, but if so, even better.

And again, acknowledging that luck is the ultimate deciding factor, if the Rangers don’t luck into one of those players, another team will, and there’s a good chance that team is adding the player to a core that is better than the Rangers is. This board is going to melt the f*** down if the Devils draft one of the big 2020 guys, and for good reason.

 

[smoneil]

Just skating in the NHL helps them.

It's like getting that sweet internship.

Please don't give me the loser culture thing. Crosby shrugged it off among other hall of famers doing the same thing.

Funny story that. Crosby's first year he was on a roster LOADED with veterans. Barely any youth on the team aside from Sid. The next offseason, they went out and brought in a few folks in FA (including Mark Recchi). Made the playoffs. Not really the same situation, but then I assume you knew that.

You can keep making up or misrepresenting information to try and claim that a losing culture isn't toxic to a young team, but the bottom line is that you don't have any experience building a team outside of your Playstation, and you are more concerned with YOU being "right" on a message board than you are with the team making the right moves. Every single one of the things you've presented as a "Fact" is easily proven to be otherwise. Stop making shit up as "evidence" for your "facts."