News & Notes XLV: Simply Having A Wonderful Canesmastime

[To Be Determined]

Honestly comes off like they don't like dealing with the guy who signs the checks in lieu of someone somewhat lesser in the pecking order. And especially someone who isn't afraid to remind them of it..

Although Dundon strikes me as the kind of guy who'll pick a fight out of the most anodyne negotiation (ie Brind'amour) just out of principle, and to remind everyone who the highest boss around these parts is.

i did get a laugh at the "their gm has to ask about everything!"

oh noes! i'll admit it seems a bit silly if he has to sign off on every single thing - does he need to approve 950k for eric robinson, or can he just say fill in the roster once the 'big' deals are signed off - but it's his money, so whatevs. if he is that hands on, then maybe folks are pissed that he is a better gm than most in the league, turning an abysmal franchise into a perennial top team.

what i'd really love to see, and know we never will, is a listing of things dundon has personally shot down that a gm wanted.

i didn't pay attention - did seattle's owner get dinged for overruling francis on the coaching hire?

 

[hblueridgegal]

I had to drive to TN yesterday and heard DW on SiriusNhL for the outdoor game. He was asked what things have been good surprises at CBJ. He first mentioned the state of the art locker rooms and facilities. Then said "completely hands off ownership" and "management that lets professionals do their jobs."

I found the timing to be interesting.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I had to drive to TN yesterday and heard DW on SiriusNhL for the outdoor game. He was asked what things have been good surprises at CBJ. He first mentioned the state of the art locker rooms and facilities. Then said "completely hands off ownership" and "management that lets professionals do their jobs."

I found the timing to be interesting.

I mean, it's an open secret that DW left because of Dundon's meddling. It remains to be seen if that's going to hurt us in the end.

 

[chaz4hockey]

I had to drive to TN yesterday and heard DW on SiriusNhL for the outdoor game. He was asked what things have been good surprises at CBJ. He first mentioned the state of the art locker rooms and facilities. Then said "completely hands off ownership" and "management that lets professionals do their jobs."

I found the timing to be interesting.

Interesting..

If in a fantasy world where I was fortunate to own a billion $ franchise I think I would institute a hybrid management situation.

I would impose a standards philosophy and then hire professionals to execute on that.

If things went well, no interference from me. If not, say hello to lots of interaction and probable replacement if things don’t turn around.

FWIW: the NHL with few exceptions has been comprised of more GM misses than superstars. The “ol boy” network thinks they are the experts but more often that not they fail (DW Atlanta?).

As a new (and pretty smart private equity type guy) owner, I’m sure he saw that going in and his meddle factor was enhanced.

As I’ve noted before, Dundon’s Canes are a breath of fresh air compared to Karmonas and IMO, the Canes are one of the better run franchises.

 

[hblueridgegal]

I mean, it's an open secret that DW left because of Dundon's meddling. It remains to be seen if that's going to hurt us in the end.

He was very smooth in his delivery. Didn't mention the Canes at all. Ten years at one spot is a while, too. He sounds very content with his new gig.

What about the marketing departures? I thought both of them were quite skilled.

 

[DaveG]

Interesting..

If in a fantasy world where I was fortunate to own a billion $ franchise I think I would institute a hybrid management situation.

I would impose a standards philosophy and then hire professionals to execute on that.

If things went well, no interference from me. If not, say hello to lots of interaction and probable replacement if things don’t turn around.

FWIW: the NHL with few exceptions has been comprised of more GM misses than superstars. The “ol boy” network thinks they are the experts but more often that not they fail (DW Atlanta?).

As a new (and pretty smart private equity type guy) owner, I’m sure he saw that going in and his meddle factor was enhanced.

As I’ve noted before, Dundon’s Canes are a breath of fresh air compared to Karmonas and IMO, the Canes are one of the better run franchises.

TBF to Don the Atlanta ownership situation after Turner sold was doing just about everything they could to actively sabotage their own team. They never wanted a part of an NHL club and in addition to limiting payroll to a Karmanos type level despite having plenty of money they actively insulted their own fans for not supporting the friggin Hawks instead. They were the definition of meddling in all the wrong ways.

 

[chaz4hockey]

He was very smooth in his delivery. Didn't mention the Canes at all. Ten years at one spot is a while, too. He sounds very content with his new gig.

What about the marketing departures? I thought both of them were quite skilled.

Marketing….Canes in game and social media presence is much worse this year than previous years (which I thought were best in class).

If Dundon meddled there, that’s a big fail.

 

[Derailed75]

The goal of sports franchises is to win. Kinda hard to fault an owner who took a team that missed the playoffs for a decade and turned them into one of the leagues power houses 7 years running.

Also going to be hard to convince him he's wrong when they wont stop winning.

 

[CandyCanes]

Forever grateful for Dundon buying the team and has now shown a commitment to keeping them here in Raleigh for the next 20 years. Maybe he runs his business differently and more aggressively than others, frustrating at times. But since his arrival we’ve been a consistent top 5-10 team in the league, we have a sold out arena, and we no longer have to listen to those awful relocation rumors we used to stress over. As a fan he’s been the best thing ever to happen to this franchise. Without him, we possibly don’t have our team anymore.

 

[LakeLivin]

I mean, it's an open secret that DW left because of Dundon's meddling. It remains to be seen if that's going to hurt us in the end.

I wonder what the breakdown is between Dundon being an active (and ultimately highest boss) participant of the Borg and him "meddling"?

My sense is that at the start Dundon was a very active participant in the Borg but one who recognized what he didn't know and who solicited input from all other members. I also sense that later on he may have become less active, although ultimately retaining final decision approval (as obviously is his prerogative). If he's no longer actively involved in the day-to-day process but pops in near the end overruling decisions, I can see that being viewed as "meddling". But if he's actively involved throughout, I see that as more just a different organizational and decision making structure than is typical in the NHL.

Seems like the Brindy extension may have been "meddling", no idea about other organizational decisions.

All speculation on my part.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I wonder what the breakdown is between Dundon being an active (and ultimately highest boss) participant of the Borg and him "meddling"?

My sense is that at the start Dundon was a very active participant in the Borg but one who recognized what he didn't know and who solicited input from all other members. I also sense that later on he may have become less active, although ultimately retaining final decision approval (as obviously is his prerogative). If he's no longer actively involved in the day-to-day process but pops in near the end overruling decisions, I can see that being viewed as "meddling". But if he's actively involved throughout, I see that as more just a different organizational and decision making structure than is typical in the NHL.

Seems like the Brindy extension may have been "meddling", no idea about other organizational decisions.

All speculation on my part.

Well, generally speaking, owners aren’t typically as involved in the everyday business of the organization as Dundon is. There’s rarely a “Borg” in other organizations and when there is, it almost never works out (Looking at you, Islanders). Most owners buy the teams and let the GMs GM and coaches coach. They only step in if one of those two are failing in their duties.

So by being as involved as he is is already unusual and could constitute meddling.

 

[LakeLivin]

Well, generally speaking, owners aren’t typically as involved in the everyday business of the organization as Dundon is. There’s rarely a “Borg” in other organizations and when there is, it almost never works out (Looking at you, Islanders). Most owners buy the teams and let the GMs GM and coaches coach. They only step in if one of those two are failing in their duties.

So by being as involved as he is is already unusual and could constitute meddling.

It could be considered as such by some, but I see a distinction between different types of owner involvement, which was the point of my post.

I will have to disagree with what I think is the gist of your point about a "Borg" in general. We agree that most sports teams have a hierarchical structure with the owner generally taking a hands off approach. But my understanding is that the Canes Borg is more than just the owner being actively involved. It's a management structure where input is actively sought from 360 degrees within the organization, and I'm of the belief that that approach has been a big part of the Canes franchise turn around.

 

[hblueridgegal]

He was very smooth in his delivery. Didn't mention the Canes at all. Ten years at one spot is a while, too. He sounds very content with his new gig.

What about the marketing departures? I thought both of them were quite skilled.

Speaking of...



I believe the rumor circulating before his departure was that he was in the running for the job that Doug Warf landed.

 

[hblueridgegal]

Still kinda wild to see Robinson-KK-Necas baby so high...they were fun.

 

[DaveG]

Nah

 

[chaz4hockey]

Starting to get a little uncomfortable standings wise for the Canes.

Columbus is creeping up and the previous big Conference playoff cushion is now down to 8 points (with Sens having a game in hand....not worried about Boston). The way Columbus is playing (and Canes are not) could mean that the Canes drop to 4th as a wild card.

Rangers apparent to have cashed in their chips this year and I believe Tulsky-Borg-Dundon (listed because as noted he is involved in everything) need to decide whether to more highly compete this year or punt. If a punt, then Orlov and Burns need to be traded at the TDL and if Mikko says I'm going to market, then I would sell him too. If a compete, then Orlov and Burns need to be traded and better assets acquired (a consistent theme either way):

 

[chaz4hockey]

I wonder if the Canes could pry Alex Tuch from the Sabres?

 

[cptjeff]

It could be considered as such by some, but I see a distinction between different types of owner involvement, which was the point of my post.

I will have to disagree with what I think is the gist of your point about a "Borg" in general. We agree that most sports teams have a hierarchical structure with the owner generally taking a hands off approach. But my understanding is that the Canes Borg is more than just the owner being actively involved. It's a management structure where input is actively sought from 360 degrees within the organization, and I'm of the belief that that approach has been a big part of the Canes franchise turn around.

And a point I routinely emphasize is that while this is a seemingly radical idea in hockey, it is entirely banal and routine business practice for nearly any normal business. Dundon came in and asked why sports teams worth hundreds of millions of dollars (at the time, now billions) weren't being run with any semblance of a modern professional structure. Having leaders expect that their department heads will work together to find a consensus on major strategic decisions is just sound practice. It reduces the personalization of decisions- one person's biases are less likely to lead to a bad outcome when others can correct for it, and increases buy-in. There's going to be less finger pointing when something goes wrong, there's going to be a more collaborative approach to finding solutions, it just plain old works better.

But then people like Francis don't get to feel as singularly powerful and important, and agents can't just close a deal by taking one guy out on a round of golf or call in a favor from their playing days together.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

And a point I routinely emphasize is that while this is a seemingly radical idea in hockey, it is entirely banal and routine business practice for nearly any normal business. Dundon came in and asked why sports teams worth hundreds of millions of dollars (at the time, now billions) weren't being run with any semblance of a modern professional structure. Having leaders expect that their department heads will work together to find a consensus on major strategic decisions is just sound practice. It reduces the personalization of decisions- one person's biases are less likely to lead to a bad outcome when others can correct for it, and increases buy-in. There's going to be less finger pointing when something goes wrong, there's going to be a more collaborative approach to finding solutions, it just plain old works better.

But then people like Francis don't get to feel as singularly powerful and important, and agents can't just close a deal by taking one guy out on a round of golf or call in a favor from their playing days together.

You know who else tried to incorporate a "consensus strategy" into his organization? Charles Wang. Any decision that a GM had to make under Wang had to appeal to an internal committee made up of executives, even ones that have really nothing to do with hockey.

Unsurprisingly, it didn't work out.

 

[chaz4hockey]

You know who else tried to incorporate a "consensus strategy" into his organization? Charles Wang. Any decision that a GM had to make under Wang had to appeal to an internal committee made up of executives, even ones that have really nothing to do with hockey.

Unsurprisingly, it didn't work out.

Dundin’s Canes>Wang’s Islanders

I’d add there are thousands of examples of successful businesses whereby collaboration works.

Not many with just a soloist.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Dundin’s Canes>Wang’s Islanders

I’d add there are thousands of examples of successful businesses whereby collaboration works.

Not many with just a soloist.

It's the opposite in hockey. There's hundreds of examples of organizations being successful when the owner is basically hands off, and just as many of owners being THE main issue with an organization. Chicago in the past, Senators, Buffalo currently...

 

[chaz4hockey]

It's the opposite in hockey. There's hundreds of examples of organizations being successful when the owner is basically hands off, and just as many of owners being THE main issue with an organization. Chicago in the past, Senators, Buffalo currently...

Nah, sports is no different than the world at large. And quite frankly none of us know how much Dundon is actually involved.

Given his pickleball and other business interests I don’t believe the agent pontifications that he is involved in everything.

 

[chaz4hockey]

Interesting. Watching both teams or just flames?

 

[LakeLivin]

You know who else tried to incorporate a "consensus strategy" into his organization? Charles Wang. Any decision that a GM had to make under Wang had to appeal to an internal committee made up of executives, even ones that have really nothing to do with hockey.

Unsurprisingly, it didn't work out.

I'd be very surprised if the Borg operates under a consensus strategy policy. My take is that rather than a top down approach, there's input from multiple areas of the organization, which makes for better informed decisions by whoever ultimately makes those decisions. Rod has noted that he has more input than he's ever seen for a coach in the NHL. He also notes that ultimately he doesn't dictate who is on the roster. I'm not familiar with Wang and the Isles, but what you're describing seems different from how I perceive the Borg operates.

 

[cptjeff]

You know who else tried to incorporate a "consensus strategy" into his organization? Charles Wang. Any decision that a GM had to make under Wang had to appeal to an internal committee made up of executives, even ones that have really nothing to do with hockey.

Unsurprisingly, it didn't work out.

After the fact murder boards second guessing everything but not being involved in the development of a decision is not collaboration. Nor is it consensus building.