P.K. Subban Thread - Mk III - Unsigned Edition

[onebighockeyfan]

I don't even know what this means???

He averaged 2-minutes more per game than Kulikov, while posting a very similar season. Subban deserves more, but not much more. He's not that much better than Kulikov. This definitely works in MB's favor if they are throwing comparison contracts on the table.

I think his point is that Subban was effectively #1D for the Habs the last two season. This is coming up a lot on this thread. The issue is that I could be #1D on a team stacked with one legged midgets on D.

 

[MCDAVIDISH]

If Zajac gets 5.8, Subban should demand 5.5. It would be crazy to start a season without him, hopefully your gm makes the right decision. Should be interesting to see what the terms are on the deal the eventually sign, then we'll have a better idea who to point the finger at.

 

[Natey]

1. Weber, Shea » D NAS 27 14 $7,857,143
2. Suter, Ryan » D MIN 27 13 $7,538,462
3. Campbell, Brian » D FLA 33 8 $7,142,875
4. Doughty, Drew » D LAK 23 8 $7,000,000
5. Chara, Zdeno » D BOS 35 7 $6,916,667
6. Bouwmeester, Jay » D CGY 29 5 $6,680,000
7. Boyle, Dan » D SAN 36 6 $6,666,667
8. Phaneuf, Dion » D TOR 27 6 $6,500,000
9. Karlsson, Erik » D OTT 22 7 $6,500,000
10. Timonen, Kimmo » D PHI 37 6 $6,333,333
11. Green, Mike » D WAS 27 3 $6,083,333
12. Seabrook, Brent » D CHI 27 5 $5,800,000
13. Burns, Brent » D SAN 27 5 $5,760,000
14. Markov, Andrei » D MTL 34 3 $5,750,000
15. Visnovsky, Lubomir » D NYI 36 5 $5,600,000
16. Keith, Duncan » D CHI 29 13 $5,538,462
17. Gonchar, Sergei » D OTT 38 3 $5,500,000
18. Wisniewski, James » D CLB 28 6 $5,500,000
19. Myers, Tyler » D BUF 22 7 $5,500,000
20. Carle, Matt » D TBL 28 6 $5,500,000
21. Yandle, Keith » D PHO 26 5 $5,250,000
22. Wideman, Dennis » D CGY 29 5 $5,250,000
23. Byfuglien, Dustin » D WIN 27 5 $5,200,000
24. Martin, Paul » D PIT 31 5 $5,000,000

Now how many of those were coming off their ELC's when they signed? Myers and Karlsson?

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

I don't even know what this means???

He averaged 2-minutes more per game than Kulikov, while posting a very similar season. Subban deserves more, but not much more. He's not that much better than Kulikov. This definitely works in MB's favor if they are throwing comparison contracts on the table.

You said PK was a 1-2 dman. No. He's a #1 period and has always been that. Not Kulikov. You can't look at what 1 guy signed for and go from that. You have to look at the going rate for a PK type player which is a young #1 dman.

Kulikov is not a good comparable and neither is MDZ.

 

[Natey]

I think his point is that Subban was effectively #1D for the Habs the last two season. This is coming up a lot on this thread. The issue is that I could be #1D on a team stacked with one legged midgets on D.

Well, he had less ice-time per game than Hamrlik (very minimal but still true) 2-seasons ago. Wiz averaged more ice-time per game than both, although I'm not sure how much of that was due to his ice-time in NYI.

He was a #1 last year while Kulikov was a #3, hence the two minutes of TOI difference per game. I don't see how Kulikov is worth $2.5M and Subban think he's worth $6M. The difference between them is not $3.5M. It's not even $2M at this point. If Subban proves he can be the #1 defenseman again this season and show some more consistency, then by all means, sign him long-term.

I would rather see MB and PK agree to a 1-year deal and work on the long term thing this off-season. Give him $4M to play the rest of this season and then figure the rest out in the summer.

You said PK was a 1-2 dman. No. He's a #1 period and has always been that. Not Kulikov. You can't look at what 1 guy signed for and go from that. You have to look at the going rate for a PK type player which is a young #1 dman.

Kulikov is not a good comparable and neither is MDZ.

Absolutely ridiculous. If Markov holds up this year, he'll be putting in 25 minutes a night again. And how has 1-year of being a #1 defenseman say "he's always been a #1." Well, no, he hasn't. Two seasons ago, he had less ice-time than Hamrlik (both total and per game, although minimal) and possibly Wiz (don't feel like doing the math for Wiz).

And Kulikov will probably average at least 24 minutes a night this year, so he's not that far off what PK did last year. 2-minutes per game is a big gap, but not a crazy gap. Especially when Kulikov scored at a higher PPG pace.

I agree MDZ isn't a good comparable though. Kulikov is higher than him, IMO.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

Now how many of those were coming off their ELC's when they signed? Myers and Karlsson?

More and more players are getting big contracts coming off their ELC's.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

Now how many of those were coming off their ELC's when they signed? Myers and Karlsson?

Yes, I think these are the only two. Both better stats than PK.

 

[Le Tricolore]

People bashing Subban are ridiculous. I'm not happy with the holding out, but it's business.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

More and more players are getting big contracts coming off their ELC's.

Perhaps, but at anything more than 4.5 million at his age PK would be an outlier on that list. Meaning he would be overpaid based on his age and stats.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

People bashing Subban are ridiculous. I'm not happy with the holding out, but it's business.

He's the one who did not show up to camp. That was his choice.

 

[Kriss E]

Well no its not. I doubt MB would be that inflexible, it wouldn't be logical as you would put it. I am sure he much prefers a 2 year deal and is battling to get that now, but if Subban wanted to sign a huge deal at that cap hit (which is very small...) I don't doubt he would pull thee trigger. If that deal that you proposed was on the table from Subbans side, this negotiation ends because its a steal. While noone actually knows, I would bet that the longterm contract that Subban wants is at a cap hit WAY higher than 4.5.



Well you've gotten the meaning of logic mixed up again. Yes PK is a great player and could be alot better in the future, but the logical reality is there are no guarntees on his development. There have been plenty of players who take nose dives early in their NHL careers. Therefore the logical approach would to be cautious and try to sign him to a 2 year deal where they can further evaluate his progression and pay him accordingly when he comes close to reaching UFA status. I think he would succeed, but thats just my opinion that is really based on nothing concrete other than watching him play 82+ games. I can't tell the future, niether can MB, and niether can you. With an uncertain future, caution is wise.

In the end, Habs management are taking the logical approach to this, contrary to your believes. They are being cautious and trying to protect the franchise salary structure. If Subban gets Doughty money any top UFA will want similar money because Subbans contract will have set the tone for future negotiations in Montreal (not to mention Gally when he comes of age).



This is business and Subban obviously knows it. He is mature enough to take it as it is, a business negotiations with nothing personal attached. I don't see a rift forming, this isn't a group of prepubescent teens, its professionals. The only rift that is being created is between two groups of fans, who are arguing on the internet tooth and nail as if they had hurt each others families or something.

People are being way to dramatic

Not sure how many times I have to repeat this. But you cannot for one second talk to me about logic and then argue that our #1 Dman deserves less than guys like Gorges and Kaberle, or even Markov (considering he hasn't played in forever). How is this logical? Oh, because he's a kid, with two years of experience? So what? He is CLEARLY better than the rest of our Dmen. The only one that could be better has played about 60ish games over the 3 last years due to injury.
Also, from what Bobby Mac tweeted, Habs are not discussing any deals over 2years so I'm not so sure what you're saying is true. Meanwhile, you give a scrapper a 4year deal.

Here's how you run a team, you identify a core and build through your stars. It's a lovely idea to instill a philosophy like Detroit. But it's also much easier to do so when your roster is bringing you to the cup (and winning it). See if you have a solid team and one guy refuses to follow the philosophy then okay, the guy can chose not to be on a Stanley cup winning team.
Us, we finished 28th and now Bergevin is trying to give the guy that pretty much lead the defensive squad for 3/4 of the past two seasons that he's only worth 2years of investment. To the point where he's willing to start the year without him.
I completely disagree with MB's strategy, but I must say, he's bold.

MB should view PK as an exception, not a norm. It isn't a common thing to see a youngster dominate their position as he has at such a young age. So pay PK his cash, find a just middle. After that, if a future prospect comes in and delivers a performance where he's just as good as PK during his ELC deal, then he can negotiate a big deal. But otherwise you stick to te bridge contract. That won't happen often though.
If DD tops his season last year, you think he's only going to deserve a 2 year deal?
You don't try to skim your stars, that could very well back fire in your face.

 

[Natey]

More and more players are getting big contracts coming off their ELC's.

Yes, but Bergy doesn't want to do that, and I agree with him. I want Subban around just as much as you, but not for $6M a year until he proves he can more consistent. He's had great development so far, but there's still things he needs to improve on. A 2-year deal at $3-4M a year is more than fair, IMO. Or even a 1-year deal. If he wants a long-term deal, if I was GM, I wouldn't leave it off the table. But you better be giving me a hell of a good deal to make me sign you long-term. That means $5M and under for a long-term contract.

If not, he can sit out. MB holds the cards. PK is an RFA and hopefully MB makes him sit there until PK comes down. I'm not bashing PK here, I just think that MB needs to hold his ground. He gives on his first contact? Might as well fire him and get a new GM cause he's going to get walked all over.

 

[CaptainBenn]

I agree he should be signed long term but refusing to train with your own team? Disappoint.

 

[Roulin]

He's the one who did not show up to camp. That was his choice.

So, you want him to work for free? Benn's not at camp either. Neither was Kulikov. This is how it goes.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

Not sure how many times I have to repeat this. But you cannot for one second talk to me about logic and then argue that our #1 Dman deserves less than guys like Gorges and Kaberle, or even Markov (considering he hasn't played in forever). How is this logical? Oh, because he's a kid, with two years of experience? So what? He is CLEARLY better than the rest of our Dmen. The only one that could be better has played about 60ish games over the 3 last years due to injury.
Also, from what Bobby Mac tweeted, Habs are not discussing any deals over 2years so I'm not so sure what you're saying is true. Meanwhile, you give a scrapper a 4year deal.

Here's how you run a team, you identify a core and build through your stars. It's a lovely idea to instill a philosophy like Detroit. But it's also much easier to do so when your roster is bringing you to the cup (and winning it). See if you have a solid team and one guy refuses to follow the philosophy then okay, the guy can chose not to be on a Stanley cup winning team.
Us, we finished 28th and now Bergevin is trying to give the guy that pretty much lead the defensive squad for 3/4 of the past two seasons that he's only worth 2years of investment. To the point where he's willing to start the year without him.
I completely disagree with MB's strategy, but I must say, he's bold.

MB should view PK as an exception, not a norm. It isn't a common thing to see a youngster dominate their position as he has at such a young age. So pay PK his cash, find a just middle. After that, if a future prospect comes in and delivers a performance where he's just as good as PK during his ELC deal, then he can negotiate a big deal. But otherwise you stick to te bridge contract. That won't happen often though.
If DD tops his season last year, you think he's only going to deserve a 2 year deal?
You don't try to skim your stars, that could very well back fire in your face.

He's not a #1D on every team in the league. Period. Look at the master list I sent previously. PK right now would be an outlier at anything more than 4.5-5.0 a year.

 

[habfan1968]

Well, he had less ice-time per game than Hamrlik (very minimal but still true) 2-seasons ago. Wiz averaged more ice-time per game than both, although I'm not sure how much of that was due to his ice-time in NYI.

He was a #1 last year while Kulikov was a #3, hence the two minutes of TOI difference per game. I don't see how Kulikov is worth $2.5M and Subban think he's worth $6M. The difference between them is not $3.5M. It's not even $2M at this point. If Subban proves he can be the #1 defenseman again this season and show some more consistency, then by all means, sign him long-term.

I would rather see MB and PK agree to a 1-year deal and work on the long term thing this off-season. Give him $4M to play the rest of this season and then figure the rest out in the summer.


Absolutely ridiculous. If Markov holds up this year, he'll be putting in 25 minutes a night again. And how has 1-year of being a #1 defenseman say "he's always been a #1." Well, no, he hasn't. Two seasons ago, he had less ice-time than Hamrlik (both total and per game, although minimal) and possibly Wiz (don't feel like doing the math for Wiz).

And Kulikov will probably average at least 24 minutes a night this year, so he's not that far off what PK did last year. 2-minutes per game is a big gap, but not a crazy gap. Especially when Kulikov scored at a higher PPG pace.

I think you are grossly under estimating PK's value to this team, now. In the time he has played for us he has shown to be very capable of number 1 duties. He has stepped up when Markov was not there. Plays in all situations PP, PK and top minutes against the other teams better lines. I am not sure you meant that(what is bolded) but if you argue he is not worth 6 million why would you pay him 4 for this shortened season, that pro rates to 6.7 million?

 

[onebighockeyfan]

So, you want him to work for free? Benn's not at camp either. Neither was Kulikov. This is how it goes.

Not all players don't go to camp without a contract. These guys chose not to. Let's see what he signs for in the end.

 

[Le Tricolore]

He's the one who did not show up to camp. That was his choice.

He's not part of the team for the time being. He doesn't have to show up to camp. It makes sense...

 

[Dr Gonzo]

Not all players don't go to camp without a contract. These guys chose not to.

Would you show up for work if you didn't have a contract with your employer and weren't getting paid?

 

[habfan1968]

He's not a #1D on every team in the league. Period. Look at the master list I sent previously. PK right now would be an outlier at anything more than 4.5-5.0 a year.

the only issue with the list is there is one Markov at 5.5? stick Subbans name there then instead of Markov and he is a #1D. He was our #1 D last season, if he was not then who was? Why is the list only 25 deep, there should be 30 #1D's in the league.

 

[Natey]

I think you are grossly under estimating PK's value to this team, now. In the time he has played for us he has shown to be very capable of number 1 duties. He has stepped up when Markov was not there. Plays in all situations PP, PK and top minutes against the other teams better lines. I am not sure you meant that(what is bolded) but if you argue he is not worth 6 million why would you pay him 4 for this shortened season, that pro rates to 6.7 million?

I meant $4M for the entire season, so actually he'd only see like $2.2M or whatever.

 

[Roulin]

Not all players don't go to camp without a contract. These guys chose not to. Let's see what he signs for in the end.

The players who go to camp without a contract are the ones who just want to stay in the NHL, who are willing to give up leverage to prove themselves, and who end up signing for bottom end contracts. Benn, Kulikov and Subban are clearly valuable players. There is no reason for them to give up any of the leverage they have. Good unsigned RFAs don't go to camp.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

I remember Bobby Ryan training with his teammates last year while Drew Doughty snobbed his.
PK is not having a great attitude there.

Exactly! It's his choice.

I'm inclinded to think PK's demands are not in line with what the best Ds in the league make right now (see me previous list). I doubt Bergevin is low balling Subban. Since I don't know what offer Bergevin put on the table, we will only know once a deal is done. Considering the fact that PK opted not to train with the team and his diva mini-superstar attitude over the last 2 years I'm guessing he's being greedy and Bergevin wants none of it.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

the only issue with the list is there is one Markov at 5.5? stick Subbans name there then instead of Markov and he is a #1D. He was our #1 D last season, if he was not then who was? Why is the list only 25 deep, there should be 30 #1D's in the league.

That's warped logic. Compare them over their entire career and factor in a healthy Markov. If you consider a player overpaid only when he's injured you're an idiot. Healthy seasons Markov is a 50-60 point veteran.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

I agree he should be signed long term but refusing to train with your own team? Disappoint.

I don't think it's that big of a deal. Refusing is a lot different than not training with them. He probably doesn't want to be bombarded by fans and media either. I can see it now...if he did train with the team you'd hear how he loves the cameras and is a distraction to the team. I truly believe with some people (not you) PK can't do anything right.