Prospect Info: Owen Pickering, 21st Overall, 2022 NHL Draft

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Gotta be honest, I like the Pickering pick but I don't give the slightest shit how well somebody interviews. Everyone always loved talking to Ben Lovejoy but he sucked. Kessel couldn't talk at all and he was good.

It doesn't matter unless the interview is catastrophically bad, and even then I think with the right leadership you can work on that with a prospect.
 
Sounds like he has a pretty interesting skill-set. Definitely like this more than token tall D picks like Morin and Stanley. The only thing they had going for them was their height.
 
Gotta be honest, I like the Pickering pick but I don't give the slightest shit how well somebody interviews. Everyone always loved talking to Ben Lovejoy but he sucked. Kessel couldn't talk at all and he was good.

It doesn't matter unless the interview is catastrophically bad, and even then I think with the right leadership you can work on that with a prospect.

Eh. Lovejoy got the absolute most out of his talent. If Kessel had had that sort of work ethic, he'd be going to the hall of fame. As examples of how much that sort of personality matter, they make me think it matters.
 
Not sure why people are calling attention to prospects media skills. The draft was very white, and very wealthy. All these kids looked to have had PR training.

Anyways, hard to judge how an 18 year old will look four years from now. As such I will root for him and reserve judgement until his career progresses a little.
Truly shocking
 
Eh. Lovejoy got the absolute most out of his talent. If Kessel had had that sort of work ethic, he'd be going to the hall of fame. As examples of how much that sort of personality matter, they make me think it matters.
People put way too much weight into it. Talent matters way more than work ethic. There's plenty of guys that work as hard as anyone who never even sniff the NHL.
 
Swift Current looks like they’re in pretty good shape. 3 F and 1 D were drafted in the later rounds, all 2004 births that should see improvements in their play.

Not sure about the coach, he was a rookie this past season but he’s coached at lower junior levels for a long time.
 
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People put way too much weight into it. Talent matters way more than work ethic. There's plenty of guys that work as hard as anyone who never even sniff the NHL.

Well I'll agree that it's possible to put too much weight in how a player interviews. And I'll agree nobody ever makes the NHL on work ethic alone.

But talent mattering way more than work ethic? Nah. I might even believe it matters more, but not way more. If nothing else, beyond a certain point, you can't acquire (or keep) the talent without the work ethic. Even the most naturally co-ordinated and athletically blessed guys can only coast so far. Which matters a hell of a lot more in 18 year old kids with a ton to learn than an NHLer. There's less than five guys in this draft who'll stick in the NHL without busting their ass at the gym and at the rink to learn. Sure that won't be enough without talent. Doesn't mean the talent will be enough without a ton of training either.

I'll buy the idea that the correlation between interviewing well and having the work ethic and smarts with which to absorb lessons is shaky. But the idea that work ethic and smarts won't determine who makes it this draft ad who doesn't is categorically wrong.

edit: Also, beyond using interviews to look at players' work ethic and their ability to absorb and apply information, it's also a look at who's going to win their coach's and teammates' support, and who's going to get on nerves and find themselves off to the side the moment it's debatable. That stuff matters too for development. The interview is about a lot more than work ethic. Tbh, that's probably the thing they find out about least from interviews with the player.
 
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So 6’4.25” at the combine. Safe to say he tops out at 6’5”.
 
Well I'll agree that it's possible to put too much weight in how a player interviews. And I'll agree nobody ever makes the NHL on work ethic alone.

But talent mattering way more than work ethic? Nah. I might even believe it matters more, but not way more. If nothing else, beyond a certain point, you can't acquire (or keep) the talent without the work ethic. Even the most naturally co-ordinated and athletically blessed guys can only coast so far. Which matters a hell of a lot more in 18 year old kids with a ton to learn than an NHLer. There's less than five guys in this draft who'll stick in the NHL without busting their ass at the gym and at the rink to learn. Sure that won't be enough without talent. Doesn't mean the talent will be enough without a ton of training either.

I'll buy the idea that the correlation between interviewing well and having the work ethic and smarts with which to absorb lessons is shaky. But the idea that work ethic and smarts won't determine who makes it this draft ad who doesn't is categorically wrong.

edit: Also, beyond using interviews to look at players' work ethic and their ability to absorb and apply information, it's also a look at who's going to win their coach's and teammates' support, and who's going to get on nerves and find themselves off to the side the moment it's debatable. That stuff matters too for development. The interview is about a lot more than work ethic. Tbh, that's probably the thing they find out about least from interviews with the player.
How many kids have truly awful work ethics versus truly good work ethics though? I think the game has become modernized to the point that almost every prospect works hard already. There's the odd exception, but for the most part the game is to the point where you have to put in the work to get noticed. There's too much talent in the game now.

So I tend to roll my eyes a bit when I hear about work ethic with players because I think they pretty much all put in the work already. I don't want a prospect where their "thing" is work ethic (and I'm not saying Pickering is this - I like the pick.). I want to hear that a guy has the talent to become something good.

I also think if a guy is lacking at all in work ethic or attitude, that can be worked on. But you can't teach raw talent. I'm more impressed that Pickering is 6 4 and can skate than I am that he has a good work ethic.

I also think it gets overblown both ways, though. I don't think it's true that Kessel is/was lazy but that's the vibe people get. I don't think Sidney Crosby works *that* amazingly harder than anybody else. He works insanely hard, but so do a lot of guys.
 
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In watching that shift-by-shift he looks pretty good even despite most of the shifts being him defending and the whole team chasing cycles or under pressure. Generally takes good angles on D though a few times he did not and it almost burned him, good gaps and doesn’t try to do too much when things start breaking down as a unit. Will stay with his man without chasing or overcommitting. Steps up, went for some hits but they were just bumps. More stick checks than body checks, obviously the weight and strength and leverage isn’t there. On the O side he has pretty nice vision on his first passes, and they’re generally on the money. He moves up in the play and isn’t afraid to go deep and even just stay there, like around the crease or even into the corner. Like act as a forward rather than as a pinching D. Has the mobility to cover for bad pinches by teammates. Swift Current has almost all LD so he found himself on the right side but not by design I don’t think.. didn’t look out of place. There’s a certain pace to his game, he’s not frenetic, or run-and-gun, likes to shake pressure and retreat behind net to run the controlled breakout. Hard to judge his shot, seems to prefer wristers or snap shots and the passes weren’t ever great. Looks like a minute-eater, never looks gassed even on long shifts.

Definitely strength is an issue and probably just picking up more nuances on the art of playing D, not sure how high his offensive upside is but points should come easily just based on his skating, passing, minutes etc. as his teammates start scoring more.
 
So from 2019 he went from 5'8" and 131lbs to 6'4" and 180lbs right now.

Adding a good 49lbs just because of the height alone and the natural weight he'd add on is a hard way to judge his ability to pack on size. I'd wait to see what he does the rest of the year and what he shows up at next summer. IF he can push himself to at least 220 in span of 2yrs, with his style he should be a monster.
 
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Gotta be honest, I like the Pickering pick but I don't give the slightest shit how well somebody interviews. Everyone always loved talking to Ben Lovejoy but he sucked. Kessel couldn't talk at all and he was good.

It doesn't matter unless the interview is catastrophically bad, and even then I think with the right leadership you can work on that with a prospect.
don't disrespect the Reverend!

:)
 
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How many kids have truly awful work ethics versus truly good work ethics though? I think the game has become modernized to the point that almost every prospect works hard already. There's the odd exception, but for the most part the game is to the point where you have to put in the work to get noticed. There's too much talent in the game now.

So I tend to roll my eyes a bit when I hear about work ethic with players because I think they pretty much all put in the work already. I don't want a prospect where their "thing" is work ethic (and I'm not saying Pickering is this - I like the pick.). I want to hear that a guy has the talent to become something good.

I also think if a guy is lacking at all in work ethic or attitude, that can be worked on. But you can't teach raw talent. I'm more impressed that Pickering is 6 4 and can skate than I am that he has a good work ethic.

I also think it gets overblown both ways, though. I don't think it's true that Kessel is/was lazy but that's the vibe people get. I don't think Sidney Crosby works *that* amazingly harder than anybody else. He works insanely hard, but so do a lot of guys.

Even if I agreed with every word of this, I'd still regard it as an argument for the value of work ethic. This board routinely geeks out and emotes about all sorts of small differences in talent and numbers. Why should work ethic, which can after all add compound interest to so many of those other small differences, be seen as any less valuable?

And tbh, I do mostly agree with the bolded. On the scale of every human, the difference between Kessel and Crosby - which is about as large as exists in the NHL - isn't huge. Nevertheless, the fact that pretty much every player, coach, reporter, executive, scout and so on makes a huge deal out of the difference suggests pretty much everyone near the game believes those differences in work ethic matter.

That's just in the NHL. If we're talking the draft, and a bunch of 18 year olds who mostly never had to work super hard to be the best player around, then I reckon the range in work ethic is going to be pretty large. Can it change? Sure, and I reckon most of them learn to work harder as part of the process. But at the same time the world would look very different if gaining a new work ethic was easy and I'm guessing the correlation between busts and low work ethics - or low coachability, or big egos - is pretty strong. Also if stuff like skating, shooting, and so on are parts of raw talent, you can 100% coach that. Usually to players with strong work ethics...

Nobody wants a guy who's work ethic and nothing else. Tbh, I've never seen a prospect described that way. But raw talent isn't enough for 99% of the league either. This isn't an either or. It's a both, and I don't see why anyone wouldn't want as much of both as possible. Ditto all of the other stuff the interview is trying to gauge.
 
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So from 2019 he went from 5'8" and 131lbs to 6'4" and 180lbs right now.

Adding a good 49lbs just because of the height alone and the natural weight he'd add on is a hard way to judge his ability to pack on size. I'd wait to see what he does the rest of the year and what he shows up at next summer. IF he can push himself to at least 220 in span of 2yrs, with his style he should be a monster.
You expect him to gain 40 pounds of mostly muscle in 2 years? That rarely happens unless you're a 40+ year old movie star (those "chicken and rice" diets sure do work wonders.....). I'd be thrilled if he was 200lbs by the time he is 20.

I'd take a great mind that can think the game over pure strength anyway so it's not the end of the world if he doesn't fill out as much as we'd hope. Lidstrom was, what, 6'2" 190lbs? I'd settle for not being a string bean at this point.
 
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Probably reasonable to add 10 lbs in an off-season at his age and frame.. but then he’ll probably lose half of that through the season.

If he’s 180 now I’d expect him to be 200ish by 2024 camp when, if all goes well, he might reasonably compete for an NHL spot. No reason to go nuts or add sloppy weight or build showy muscles. He doesn’t need to be 225 in the WHL.
 
You expect him to gain 40 pounds of mostly muscle in 2 years? That rarely happens unless you're a 40+ year old movie star (those "chicken and rice" diets sure do work wonders.....). I'd be thrilled if he was 200lbs by the time he is 20.

I'd take a great mind that can think the game over pure strength anyway so it's not the end of the world if he doesn't fill out as much as we'd hope. Lidstrom was, what, 6'2" 190lbs? I'd settle for not being a string bean at this point.
I've done it within a 2yr span when I was that age and playing rugby and needed to bulk up after hockey was over and I lost mass (normal after a season).

It's very doable especially at that age. His height will add weight for obvious reasons but he will add size to his legs first and that isn't as hard and if he increases his up tick in protein and proper calories he can. I've helped train blokes to gain 25-40lbs before as well.

I'm speaking form a former trainer perspective as well as having done it before as well. In Marcus Pettersson's case, it's not the same issue - he's got a high metabolism and can't properly gain weight. There are ways he could.
 
I've done it within a 2yr span when I was that age and playing rugby and needed to bulk up after hockey was over and I lost mass (normal after a season).

It's very doable especially at that age. His height will add weight for obvious reasons but he will add size to his legs first and that isn't as hard and if he increases his up tick in protein and proper calories he can. I've helped train blokes to gain 25-40lbs before as well.

I'm speaking form a former trainer perspective as well as having done it before as well. In Marcus Pettersson's case, it's not the same issue - he's got a high metabolism and can't properly gain weight. There are ways he could.

An expert on MP’s high metabolism. Unbelievable the stuff thats written here.
 
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You expect him to gain 40 pounds of mostly muscle in 2 years? That rarely happens unless you're a 40+ year old movie star (those "chicken and rice" diets sure do work wonders.....). I'd be thrilled if he was 200lbs by the time he is 20.

I'd take a great mind that can think the game over pure strength anyway so it's not the end of the world if he doesn't fill out as much as we'd hope. Lidstrom was, what, 6'2" 190lbs? I'd settle for not being a string bean at this point.
He may be able to add 15 muscle 15 fat. 40 lbs of muscle = roids.
 

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