Ovechkin vs Laine comparison.

[Varan]

Yes, I said that earlier. If he isn't better than 32 year old OV, then he won't be better than 20 year old OV...

He is not equivalent, that was my point, which is why we should compare rookie seasons with rookie seasons. Hf has too much of an obsession with trying to split hairs, "well my guys a year younger so compare their seasons based on ages". Same thing was being said in the Mack vs Kucherov thread, people act as though there is some huge age difference but there isn't and that's their justification for taking Mackinnon even though Kucherov has been better in each of the last 4 years but this one. Even then he was barely beat out...

I feel like you misread my statement or I'm misreading yours because we seem to agree?



Hey I agree, I was just being reserved and going for a general ballpark statement so I didn't have to argue with people that thought he was outside top 20. Didn't want to turn the thread into a top 100 players all-time list.

I think Laine is a great young player, I also happen to think Ovechkin was the hockey equivalent of World XI at his peak. The premise of the OP is off IMO, we are meant to agree simply because no NHL data exists for OV as 18/19 year old BUT we aren't allowed to use his 20 year old season because it's no NHL data exists for Laine. Seems a bit hypocritical, don't you agree? RSL vs NHL data isn't really comparable IMO. There is absolutely no context to go with it.

All we know is that Ovechkin had vastly more hype surrounding his draft stock, but we are meant to believe he was trash in the RSL and couldn't have made the jump as a younger player? Something is way off here.

It is hypocritical because it blows out the “Laine was far better than OV premise” because they know OV didn’t play until he was 20 while Laine was playing in the best league in the world.

Also, I never understood why this thread is made. Laine has 2 years of pro experience before OV did, and then they bring up 80 goals to 0 before OV stepped foot in the league. Well what do you think, who you do think would be better?

 

[DRW204]

Because I didn't check Ovechkins birthday, I'm not knowledgeable in hockey. Sure thing.

You should just focus on attacking the arguments, not the person making the argument.

No your knowledge is being questioned because you said he should have played in the NHL during a year it was locked out.

It's funny cuz teams actually tried drafting him years prior and using leap years as an excuse that he met the age eligibility

 

[Silky mitts]

Laine really seems like a cool guy and he reminds me of what Kovalchuk might have been on a great team. As a rookie 7 months older than Laine last year Ovechkin got 124 of 129 1st place votes for Calder over Crosby and Lundqvist and finished 6th in Hart voting on the 4th worst team in the NHL.

 

[North Cole]

It is hypocritical because it blows out the “Laine was far better than OV premise” because they know OV didn’t play until he was 20 while Laine was playing in the best league in the world.

Also, I never understood why this thread is made. Laine has 2 years of pro experience before OV did, and then they bring up 80 goals to 0 before OV stepped foot in the league. Well what do you think, who you do think would be better?

Exactly, it's a classic case of confirmation bias. You can't argue against the data on merit because OV literally had no data, so how he can he be better? You have to say, the data you supplied is biased and junk; therefore, it should be disregarded. Then you can have a real conversation about the players at hand. HF does this a lot, so I'm not singling out the OP or throwing stones. I've done it too, it's easy to come up with an idea and then only look for stats thats prove the idea, instead of forming an idea from the stats.

 

[Psych0dad]

No, you aren't knowledgeable in hockey because you apparently believe that Laine = Lemieux.

That you didn't know what year Ovechkin was drafted is just funny.

Another strawman. I did not say Laine=Lemieux.

You should address the actual points and not misrepresent what I say.

 

[JFG]

I’m on mobile. Is OP Finnish? I have no other explanation.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Another strawman. I did not say Laine=Lemieux.

You should address the actual points and not misrepresent what I say.

Well you did say Laine has his hockey IQ and that Laine's passing game is on or beyond his level.

 

[Psych0dad]

No your knowledge is being questioned because you said he should have played in the NHL during a year it was locked out.

It's funny cuz teams actually tried drafting him years prior and using leap years as an excuse that he met the age eligibility

I remember that debacle of the previous year, I just simply didn't know the cutoff days. He was 18 then but not eligible to play in the NHL.

The point is though, at the same age Ovechkins stats and accomplishments from all the comparable international games etc, were worse than Laines. At every level of competition. None of you argue against that because you know you can't. So the topic gets hijacked to talk about posters and logical fallacies.

If you don't think players should be compared at the same age, that's your prerogative. I do think the best, most analytically correct way of evaluating players is by comparing them to others at the same age.

 

[oXo Cube]

Another strawman. I did not say Laine=Lemieux.

You should address the actual points and not misrepresent what I say.

Alright fair enough, you didn't explicitly say that you just said he's 'like Mario' which is similarly preposterous but whatever.

Care to address your positions that he is more valuable than McDavid and would 'beat Gretzky with his hands tied behind his back' ?

 

[Psych0dad]

Well you did say Laine has his hockey IQ and that Laine's passing game is on or beyond his level.

Yeah I know. I stand by that. That doesn't make them equal. Equal was your claim.

They are different players. Laine has a better shot, Lemieux was physically ahead at this age. Their style is very similar, although Laine is more of a shooter because that's what he has over everyone and it would be stupid not to use it.

Laine is fully capable of making famtastic plays, but he will always be the preferred triggerman rather than a playmaker. Mario was more of a playmaker, even though his shooting was probably the best in his era.

There are differences but the similarities have been pointed out by hockey experts too.

 

[DRW204]

I remember that debacle of the previous year, I just simply didn't know the cutoff days. He was 18 then but not eligible to play in the NHL.

The point is though, at the same age Ovechkins stats and accomplishments from all the comparable international games etc, were worse than Laines. At every level of competition. None of you argue against that because you know you can't. So the topic gets hijacked to talk about posters and logical fallacies.

If you don't think players should be compared at the same age, that's your prerogative. I do think the best, most analytically correct way of evaluating players is by comparing them to others at the same age.

It's just funny see you go to the lengths to try and discredit Ovie for extraordinary situations way beyond his control.

Like I said, I concede age , how about the fact that Laine at 20 has 150+ of pro NHL/NA ice experience, on an elite team with an elite forward group and excellent offensive/PMD compared to Ovie at the same age?

 

[Mulletman]

No your knowledge is being questioned because you said he should have played in the NHL during a year it was locked out.

It's funny cuz teams actually tried drafting him years prior and using leap years as an excuse that he met the age eligibility

It's a real shame that Ovechkin wasn't drafted by the Panthers in 2003. That leap year loophole they tried should've been allowed. Instead the League couldn't accept that the Panthers had the balls to try and circumvent their girly man rules and intervened to stop it. And as a result of that we were robbed of seeing Ovechkin in the NHL in 2003-04...

 

[Peggy]

So Laines upcoming year where he already had two more years of nhl experience is comparable to ovies year when he had 0? I concede the age side, but Laine having two more years of pro nhl/NA experience by far trumps Ovie having 0... Not to mention the quality of team/linemates is beyond comparable.

Doesn't matter
You don't get the benefit of the doubt playing in a lesser league If were gonna play these games
Laine is clearly ahead right now then

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

It's just funny see you go to the lengths to try and discredit Ovie for extraordinary situations way beyond his control.

Like I said, I concede age , how about the fact that Laine at 20 has 150+ of pro NHL/NA ice experience, on an elite team with an elite forward group and excellent offensive/PMD compared to Ovie at the same age?

If Laine gets 60 goals and 110 points would you say he is better than Ovechkin?

 

[North Cole]

Yeah I know. I stand by that. That doesn't make them equal. Equal was your claim.

They are different players. Laine has a better shot, Lemieux was physically ahead at this age. Their style is very similar, although Laine is more of a shooter because that's what he has over everyone and it would be stupid not to use it.

Laine is fully capable of making famtastic plays, but he will always be the preferred triggerman rather than a playmaker. Mario was more of a playmaker, even though his shooting was probably the best in his era.

There are differences but the similarities have been pointed out by hockey experts too.

But their style isn't similar. Lemieux was a force and skated/stickhandled his way through entire teams...Then he laid people out. He had 5x the vision and much much better passing ability. Skated much better, had much better IQ...

You just proved yourself wrong. When you say someone is more of a playmaker but has the best shooting of his era....what does that make his playmaking ability? How does the arguable best shooter of an era get known as a playmaker? Domination, in all facets. Laine hasn't shown to be that dominant... Laine is far closer to post leg injury Stamkos then he is to Lemieux, in both skill and "style". I say that because Post leg injury Stamkos is still a better playmaker...and he's nowhere near Lemieux

 

[DRW204]

If Laine gets 60 goals and 110 points would you say he is better than Ovechkin?

I'm a Jets fan so I hope he does hit those numbers lol.

If he hits those numbers I'd say he has had a season close to/on par with some of Ovies best. Ovie has 112 pts in 82, 110 in 79 and 109 in 72,,

 

[oXo Cube]

Yeah I know. I stand by that. That doesn't make them equal. Equal was your claim.

They are different players. Laine has a better shot, Lemieux was physically ahead at this age. Their style is very similar, although Laine is more of a shooter because that's what he has over everyone and it would be stupid not to use it.

Laine is fully capable of making famtastic plays, but he will always be the preferred triggerman rather than a playmaker. Mario was more of a playmaker, even though his shooting was probably the best in his era.

There are differences but the similarities have been pointed out by hockey experts too.

???

 

[Alf the dwarf]

Ovechkin wasn't eligible to play in the NHL before the lockout. You're a buffoon.

Well I should have checked that better, thanks for correcting. But calling other by names really tells more about yourself.

 

[Psych0dad]

Alright fair enough, you didn't explicitly say that you just said he's 'like Mario' which is similarly preposterous but whatever.

Care to address your positions that he is more valuable than McDavid and would 'beat Gretzky with his hands tied behind his back' ?

Goals are worth a lot more than assists, so when they both are above 100 pts and Laine is goal heavy, that will be more valuable. Unless of course McDavid starts scoring considerably more goals than so far. Which I kinda expect to happen but it seems that Laine started from a higher trajectory in scoring and is going to keep getting better too.

Actually those were taken badly out of context. I said that when it was statistically true...for 2 months in Laines rookie season he lead the NHL in gpg and ppg. That's what it referred to.

And never said that about Laine and Gretzky.

I said Laine is beating Gretzky (he did, it was about teenage goals) with hands tied behind his back...meaning very limited icetime and usage, tied to Little. They even put him on the wrong side of PP so he couldn't use the onetimer. That's what that means.

 

[wickedwitch]

Goals before the age of 20 in the NHL by me: 0
Goals before the age of 20 in the NHL by Ovechkin: 0

So we're pretty much the exact same player.

Laine is awesome. If you say stuff like he might be almost as good as Ovechkin -- which could make him a top 50 player of all time -- then your argument wouldn't be ridiculed and it would still be a huge compliment to Laine.

 

[DRW204]

Doesn't matter
You don't get the benefit of the doubt playing in a lesser league If were gonna play these games
Laine is clearly ahead right now then

What are you even talking about. Did you quote the right post ? Ovie couldn't play in the NHL as a teen for reasons beyond his control

 

[Alf the dwarf]

But their style isn't similar. Lemieux was a force and skated/stickhandled his way through entire teams...Then he laid people out. He had 5x the vision and much much better passing ability. Skated much better, had much better IQ...

You just proved yourself wrong. When you say someone is more of a playmaker but has the best shooting of his era....what does that make his playmaking ability? How does the arguable best shooter of an era get known as a playmaker? Domination, in all facets. Laine hasn't shown to be that dominant... Laine is far closer to post leg injury Stamkos then he is to Lemieux, in both skill and "style". I say that because Post leg injury Stamkos is still a better playmaker...and he's nowhere near Lemieux

It's your opinion that Laine and Lemieux ain't similiar. And by saying similiar playstyles it doesn't mean he is going to put up same numbers than Lemieux, just that hes playing style reminds of him.

 

[Sky04]

PP matters because it's easier to score with the man advantage. Obviously Laine to date isn't nearly the same type of overall player as prime Ovy, but if people are talking about him needing to be top 3 in points for age to age comparisons, having more than 7 mins of PP time per game would certainly go a long way towards helping him achieve that. You can't seriously tell me for players with the shooting weapons that Ovy and Laine have that PP time doesn't matter when they're typically the triggermen. I still think Ovy will be a far more complete player than Laine, but these point comparisons age to age drive me nuts because the context is never the same. I think Laine can potentially manage the points, but I'll never agree to say he's on Ovechkin's level of dominance until he can drive the plays consistently by himself.

No it wouldn't, you do understand how league averages work right? That 7mins was applied to everyone in 05-06 and Ovechkin still finished 3rd in league scoring, just like Laine has the same league average PP time as McDavid this year. I can't believe I just had to explain that or that you tried to imply Ovechkin was averaging 7 more PP mins than his peers of the same year.

Again I didn't use a point comparison I used league placement, which is much more comparable. Ovechkin was consistently a top-5 overall producer in the legaue, Ovechkin finished top-3 in POINTS 4 times in his first 5 seasons.

To further simplify for you, that is like Laine finishing where Kucherov did this year but as a rookie.

 

[oXo Cube]

Goals are worth a lot more than assists, so when they both are above 100 pts and Laine is goal heavy, that will be more valuable. Unless of course McDavid starts scoring considerably more goals than so far. Which I kinda expect to happen but it seems that Laine started from a higher trajectory in scoring and is going to keep getting better too.

Actually those were taken badly out of context. I said that when it was statistically true...for 2 months in Laines rookie season he lead the NHL in gpg and ppg. That's what it referred to.

And never said that about Laine and Gretzky.

I said Laine is beating Gretzky (he did, it was about teenage goals) with hands tied behind his back...meaning very limited icetime and usage, tied to Little. They even put him on the wrong side of PP so he couldn't use the onetimer. That's what that means.

 

[Psych0dad]

View attachment 135085

Yes and at comparable age, McDavid had 30 to Laines 44. We can compare McDavids 41 this season against Laines next season. I expect the gap to stay. When Laine starts getting proper usage (like McDavid from day one) that gap will likely grow. But it won't surprise me if McD scores over 50 goals some seasons. It also won't surprise me if Laine scores 70.