Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[BenchBrawl]

3x PPG leader, 8x top 10 in pts, 200+ hits a season...that shot is godly!!

I know you love him and for good reason, he is awesome ! But that man is not a Top 10 hockey player of all-time. His playoffs track record is disappointing for a player of his caliber, despite his Smythe. Top 10 players all have better playoff records. All of them.

Top 20 perhaps, at the margin.

 

[Confused Turnip]

I know you love him and for good reason, he is awesome ! But that man is not a Top 10 hockey player of all-time. His playoffs track record is disappointing for a player of his caliber, despite his Smythe. Top 10 players all have better playoff records. All of them.

Top 20 perhaps, at the margin.

How exactly are you measuring his playoff track record? It's obviously not by his personal production which is clearly all time great level, so I assume you're blaming him for playing in an era of parity and the performance of random guys on his team who don't even share ice time with him? Even Gretzky couldn't drag a team to the Cup by himself.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Beliveau routinely "flirts with 5th" for a lot of people and he only has one Art Ross trophy.

More to players than just trophy counting.

And I think people inflate Beliveau's deserved placing. One Art Ross, two Harts, only led the post-season in points once, one Conn Smythe despite his playoff reputation, there are weaknesses in his resume.

 

[K Fleur]

How exactly are you measuring his playoff track record? It's obviously not by his personal production which is clearly all time great level, so I assume you're blaming him for playing in an era of parity and the performance of random guys on his team who don't even share ice time with him? Even Gretzky couldn't drag a team to the Cup by himself.

 

[Muikea Bulju]

With his 8 Rockets, he has already cemented himself as a Top10 player.

If he gets over 800, there is no doubt he is somewhere around 5th-7th best all time. If he gets to 894, people should start to mention him in the conversations for the best players all time (currently people usually mention the Big 4, Gretzky-Howe-Orr-Lemieux, Ovechkin should go as the fifth on that group)

Currently I would rate best all time players (not just NHL, best no matter what league) in tiers like this:

Gretzky
--------------
Howe
Orr
Lemieux
--------------
Hasek
Ovechkin
Bourque
--------------
Richard
Yzerman
Sakic
Roy
Bobby Hull
Dionne
Esposito
--------------
Brett Hull
Selanne
Mikita
Jagr
Messier
Coffey
Lafleur
Brodeur
Chelios
etc

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

How exactly are you measuring his playoff track record? It's obviously not by his personal production which is clearly all time great level, so I assume you're blaming him for playing in an era of parity and the performance of random guys on his team who don't even share ice time with him? Even Gretzky couldn't drag a team to the Cup by himself.

Below ppg is all time great production? Ovechkin has two great playoffs
27 points in 24 games
21 points in 14 games

 

[Muikea Bulju]

Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Lemieux
Hasek
Beliveau
Harvey
Roy
Hull


I think he and Crosby are in the next tier with Richard, Jagr, Bourque, Shore, Lidstrom, and Morenz.

Believeau, Harvey, Jagr are not that high. Shore and Morenz are almost impossible to compare, tiny league, very much lower competition.

Lidstrom never won an MVP, and started winning Norris trophies only after Bourque, Coffey, Chelios, Stevens etc were out of the league / 40 years old. He had the luck of playing in a time with lesser elite d-man-competition.

Lidstrom was at highest 4th in Hart Trophy voting, getting two (2) 1st place votes. If he was never even top3 in his own time, how can he be a Top10 or Top20 player all time?

 

[ImporterExporter]

With his 8 Rockets, he has already cemented himself as a Top10 player.

If he gets over 800, there is no doubt he is somewhere around 5th-7th best all time. If he gets to 894, people should start to mention him in the conversations for the best players all time (currently people usually mention the Big 4, Gretzky-Howe-Orr-Lemieux, Ovechkin should go as the fifth on that group)

Currently I would rate best all time players (not just NHL, best no matter what league) in tiers like this:

Gretzky
--------------
Howe
Orr
Lemieux
--------------
Hasek
Ovechkin
Bourque
--------------
Richard
Yzerman
Sakic
Roy
Bobby Hull
Dionne
Esposito
--------------
Brett Hull
Selanne
Mikita
Jagr
Messier
Coffey
Lafleur
Brodeur
Chelios
etc

Jesus f***ing Christ.

If you want to learn something worthwhile about hockey history head over to the HoH section because none of those bolded have any business being discussed as top 10 players ever.

 

[Muikea Bulju]

Jesus ****ing Christ.

If you want to learn something worthwhile about hockey history head over to the HoH section because none of those bolded have any business being discussed as top 10 players ever.

So you decided to bold mostly players out of the top10, claiming they have no business of being in the top10?

Hasek is a Top10 player. Should've gotten 3 Hart trophies, got 2. Had 6 Vezinas.

That was a list of players all time in hockey, not just NHL. For example, Selanne leads the olympic scoring.

If you don't appreciate Dionne, maybe you should check the teams he played for & hart-trophy votings.

Messier, Jagr, Chelios, Brodeur etc are not top10 players, they are just in the next tier with a gigantic bunch of players. Like Dryden, Beliveau, Potvin, Bossy, Lidstrom, Kurri, Stevens, Bure, Larionov, Fetisov, Kharlamov ....

 

[Voight]

Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Lemieux
Hasek
Beliveau
Harvey
Roy
Hull


I think he and Crosby are in the next tier with Richard, Jagr, Bourque, Shore, Lidstrom, and Morenz.

Hull is losing serious ground to Ovy IMO and I say that as Hawks fan.

Ovy has him beat in goal scoring titles, they are equal in AST's, equal in cups (Hull probably wins the Smythe if it was around in 61), Hull has 2 more scoring titles but 1 less Hart. Granted Hull bolted for the WHA after 15 years but still.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I know it's a vulgar point total argument, but why not:

Ovechkin hasn't scored 90 points in 10 years.

Whereas Crosby has done it all of twice?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Jesus ****ing Christ.

If you want to learn something worthwhile about hockey history head over to the HoH section because none of those bolded have any business being discussed as top 10 players ever.

That is utterly false - not that anyone should care what a small cabal of Canadian history revisionists think.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

If Ovechkin surpasses Gretzky's goal record, he could end up with 1600 points. This would put him right behind Joe Sakic who has 1641 points. Pretty amazing when you think about it.

I don't think that means much when looking at top 10 all time. Ron Francis was a great Penguin but never near the top player in the league any year of his career and he is 5th all time in points.

AO had only a short 4 year period in which he competed as the top point producer in the league with Malkin and Crosby. All three won a scoring title during that time and it was a great debate who was the best in the NHL. Even then most believed it was Crosby who won a scoring title at 19 years old.

After that 4 year period Crosby stayed one of the top 3 scorers almost every year and the years he didn't it was due to injury and he still averaged the best PPG in the league those years. Unfortunately for AO he was not a factor in the scoring race from that point on. In fact 5 of the last 9 years AO has not been in the top 10 in scoring despite playing 78 games or more in all those years.

All the all time greats stayed as dominant players in the game and always stayed near the top in the league in points in any year they played near full seasons. I have OV not close to top 10 all time. So many other players that stayed near the top in the league leaders for much more of there career. Great goal scorer but all the best players all time could score goals but also great passers.

 

[max21]

Imagine not putting the greatest goal scorer in NHL history in your top 10. Ovechkin is easily in that tier. Guy is a freight train with the most lethal shot in hockey, he’s a maniac who isn’t stopping anytime soon.

 

[K Fleur]

And I think people inflate Beliveau's deserved placing. One Art Ross, two Harts, only led the post-season in points once, one Conn Smythe despite his playoff reputation, there are weaknesses in his resume.

The Conn Smythe trophy did not even exist until Jean Beliveau was 33 years old.

 

[gtrower]

One day, a Washington Capitals fan will have a heart attack thumping their chest about why OV is better than Crosby.

and it more than likely will happen in a forum post that had absolutely nothing to do with Crosby in the first place.

He says in an Ovi thread...that had nothing to do with Crosby in the first place?

 

[nowhereman]

Call it recency bias but, yes, OV is in my top 10. Sid too.

 

[Legionnaire]

Probably. Certainty the best LW.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

With his 8 Rockets, he has already cemented himself as a Top10 player.

If he gets over 800, there is no doubt he is somewhere around 5th-7th best all time. If he gets to 894, people should start to mention him in the conversations for the best players all time (currently people usually mention the Big 4, Gretzky-Howe-Orr-Lemieux, Ovechkin should go as the fifth on that group)

Currently I would rate best all time players (not just NHL, best no matter what league) in tiers like this:

Gretzky
--------------
Howe
Orr
Lemieux
--------------
Hasek
Ovechkin
Bourque
--------------
Richard
Yzerman
Sakic
Roy
Bobby Hull
Dionne
Esposito
--------------
Brett Hull
Selanne
Mikita
Jagr
Messier
Coffey
Lafleur
Brodeur
Chelios
etc

No bias with this guy!

Crosby no place on the list despite being his generations by far most points per game and 6th all time. Also Crosby has been one of the top 5 point producers in almost any year of his career besides the 3 years he was injured. Even in those years he led the league in PPG two of those years and the other year he was 2nd and only a hundredth of a point from 1st. Crosby has never not been in the top 10 when healthy.

OV literally has been out of the top 10 in scoring 5 of the last 9 years. He only had a short 4 year period he competed for the best player in the he league with Crosby and Malkin with all 3 winning a scoring title. Crosby won his at 19 years old. Even during those 4 years more people believed Crosby was the best player in the league. Since that time period OV hasn't even been a factor for top point producer and when compared to other all time greats his peak was way to short. For example Jagr won 5 scoring titles and had several other years as a top 3 point producer.

People acting like all time goals or all time points makes you one of the best is ridiculous. Ron Francis is 5th all time in points and he was never one of the top 5 players in the league in any year of his career. As a Penguin fan I watched him in his career and he is not close to any of the Pens big 4 of Lemieux, Crosby, Jagr, and Malkin. So just like Francis it won't matter if OV finished high up on all time goal list when his overall play was not near the top 5 in points for much of his career. I am not ridiculous like this guy and going to leave him out of top 20 like he did Crosby but he is out of my top 10.

 

[wetcoast]

Um...he is already top ten.

In no particular order:

Gretzky
Mario
Orr
Howe
Jagr
Richard
Harvey
Ovi
Bobby Hull
Hasek

Just on the outside looking in:

Gartner
Yzerman
Sakic
Brett Hull

Gartner and Brett Hull?

Sorry but you need to do some more research here.

You are missing Jean Beliveau, Patrick Roy, Raymond Bourque, Sidney Crosby, Nicklas Lidstrom and even Howie Morenz and about 150 other guys at elast before you get to Mkike gartner.

Brett Hull is closer to 100 than 10th as well.

As for the OP Ovechkin is probably around 10-15 all time depending on what criteria people use.

 

[wetcoast]

How exactly are you measuring his playoff track record? It's obviously not by his personal production which is clearly all time great level, so I assume you're blaming him for playing in an era of parity and the performance of random guys on his team who don't even share ice time with him? Even Gretzky couldn't drag a team to the Cup by himself.

How exactly is Ovechkin's playoff resume , to use your words

clearly all time great level

He is 3rd in points in the playoffs during his career and his resume is hardly at the clearly all time great level that you are referring to here.

That being said Ovechkin has added alot in the last 2 playoff years but he is still clearly behind Malkin and Crosby since 05-06 and in a group along with Kane and several other players.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

Imagine not putting the greatest goal scorer in NHL history in your top 10. Ovechkin is easily in that tier. Guy is a freight train with the most lethal shot in hockey, he’s a maniac who isn’t stopping anytime soon.

I don't think OV is the greatest goal scorer of all time. Lemieux was a much better goal scorer than OV and he was not just a shot first player like AO. The difference between players like Lemieux, Gretzky, and even someone like Crosby is that they not only scored goals but also elite passers that made the best play. If someone like Lemieux wanted to just be a shot first guy instead of making the best play with some of the greatest passing of all time he would of averaged over a goal a game. Heck in his prime he did that already.

OV is not the greatest goal scorer of all time but the greatest pure goal scorer. The all time great players all have been great goal scorers and passers like the Lemieux, Gretzky, Crosby, Howe, and other forwards. Adding in defenseman and goaltenders puts OV much further back. I would also take a Jagr, Yzerman, LaFontaine, Forsberg, and many others over OV who for several years wasn't even a top 10 point producer in th league despite playing full seasons or close. None of the real great players was like that.

 

[Gordievsky]

Do pure goal scorers get a bit of a bump up people's lists because goal scoring is so hard to consistently achieve on an annual basis? Do they get forgiven a bit for minor holes in their game as a result?

I would argue they should, because guys like Hull, Ovechkin and Gartner who can pump in goals with such regularity are so rare. Not to diminish at all the achievements of more well rounded players, but goals are goals.

So yeah, I'd probably have him in my top 10 and if he passes Gretzky I think it would be very difficult to argue otherwise.

 

[Midnight Judges]

He says in an Ovi thread...that had nothing to do with Crosby in the first place?

 

[ScaredStreit]

To everyone saying it would be a "top 5"...how would Ovechkin NOT always rank 5th? Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, and Orr were much more complete players than Ovechkin has ever been. If he's consistently ranked 5th (which he should be compared to those others), there's really no top 5. I'm not sure if it's recency bias, or people never saw Gretzky/Lemiux play (I never saw Orr or Howe can't comment)...but those two were easily better players than Ovechkin.