Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[Mike8]

Francis never lead the league in points, he has 5 top 10 point finishes, his highest being 4th. Ovechkin has 8, 4 in the top 3 and 6 in the top 5. Francis didn’t win 3 Harts, his highest finish was 6th, he didn’t win 3 Lindsays, 8 Rockets, or a smythe. It would be different if he was a prolific goal scorer with not a lot of dominance to show for it, except he’s lead the league in goals more times than anyone. That means something. For all the points Francis put up, and for all his consistency....he never reached the heights Ovechkin reached or had the consistency at a high level that Ovechkin maintained. Ovechkin also did all this in a significantly lower scoring era where as Francis played in some of the highest.

The post you're responding to didn't claim Francis was better than Ovechkin. Their point was that Francis' all-time points aren't the be-all, end-all, and some context is important. And so the broader point, I think, is that while Ovechkin's goal scoring dominance is impressive and deserving of major recognition and does launch Ovechkin into one of the all-time best players, the broader context is that Ovechkin's game outside of goal scoring hasn't been 'all-time great'. That is, Ovechkin's elite peak was superb--but on the shorter end, and since that peak Ovechkin's been a great sniper but not overall dominant offensively.

Put another way: Ovechkin's true 'elite offensive player' peak runs from 2006-2010. Since then he's been a great, prolific goal scorer and had some top-10 appearances, but he's not a real contender for the scoring lead and is more frequently outside the top-10 points. On the other hand, players like Malkin, Kane and Crosby continue to put up great stats and have had far, far longer peaks. Similarly, all-time greats typically had that longevity in peak dominance; Bobby Hull being a good example of that.

There's a danger in putting too much emphasis on goal-scoring as opposed to the more important abilities: generating offense and overall player impact. Ovechkin's not going to compete with the all-around greats who stifled the opposition's offense with their great defensive/possesion work while putting up high point totals, and so -- in my mind -- his overall offensive output needed to have a longer peak. There's gotta be some facet of his game outside of just goals that puts him in contention with players who generated more offense, especially since many of those players played superior all-around games.

 

[Mike8]

You realized the not only did Ovechkin have the superior rookie season (Calder), seasons 3-5 Ovechkin won the Lindsay in 3 straight years as the 'leagues most outstanding player'?

Regarding your 2nd point, I definitely agree that strict points or goals don't necessarily matter that much, but breaking Gretzky's record would finally give Ovechkin the recognition and appreciation that SO many people are lacking for him right now.

Ovechkin TODAY is:
- 1st all time in times leading the league in goals (a record that may never be broken)
- 1st all time in times leading the league in goals/gp
-3rd all time in Ted Lindsay wins
- 4th all time in Hart wins
-8th all time in leading the league in points/gp

That alone is a resume deserving of a top player of all-time. Then once you consider how close he may come to the total goal record, despite playing in such a lower-scoring era, it really cements what he truly deserves, regardless of the many that hate him.

I don't really disagree with you, but I think your framing is a little disingenuous:

First, your notes on Ovechkin's accomplishments today are mostly goal-oriented. I don't think saying that it's "a record that may never be broken" makes any sense at all, particularly given the context of that having been said about Gretzky and now we have Ovechkin threatening to break it. Further, scoring may continue increasing in the league, so there's really no way to tell.

Second, Ovechkin had a really terrific peak -- his first 5 seasons in the league. Thereafter, he's been a sniper. A prolific sniper, and the best of all time in that regard, but a sniper nonetheless. His Lindsay wins and Hart wins were largely confined to that peak. It's tough to find any top-10 contenders who had such brevity in their peak offensive performance.

Third, stating that Ovechkin is '3rd all time in Ted Lindsay wins' is disingenuous for two reasons: (i) he's tied for 3rd with Crosby, Jagr and Lafleur, and a player like Marcel Dionne (not close to top-10) has 2 and Messier (not in contention for top-10) also has 2; and (ii) the award only came into existence in 1970, excluding a whole slew of top players (Orr, Howe, Esposito, Beliveau, Hull, Richard, Morenz, Harvey -- indeed, all the players that would keep Ovechkin out of the top-10).

Last -- where are you getting your points/gp? From what I've seen he's 22nd in points/gp. Of course, this stat doesn't mean as much until a player retires.

 

[Mike8]

I see some questions in the thread on how one can possibly rank OV ahead of Richard or Jagr, and I am eager to help

One thing OV has on Richard is the Hart voting record
Ovechkin 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 6, 6, 7, 9
Richard 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 8

OV has two more Harts - and two more seasons with some Hart votes. The only thing Richard has on OV is an extra nomination, but it is not even an advantage because back in 2005/06 Hart voters decided to punish rookie OV for being the 1st overall pick and his team missing POs after being dead-last in the league the season prior (who would have thought this team won't make POs!). So in 2005/06 the Hart voters gave OV the 6th place in voting despite him finishing 3rd in both goals and points. The players did the right thing (like they are currently doing for McDavid) and nominated OV for Lindsay (then Pearson).

With that said, I understand that Richard has a way better playoff resume than OV. But in regular season OV has the peak on Richard, OV has the longevity, and OV even passed Richard as a goal-scorer, which is Richard's strongest suit. Something has to give.

If Ovechkin has longevity on Richard, then let's compare point finishes:

Ovechkin: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 8
Richard: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

Across Richard's 14 seasons spanning his rookie season until his 35-year old season, he was top-10 in scoring 11x. The three times he didn't were due to injury or it being his rookie season.

Ovechkin, in contrast, has played 15 seasons and has 8x top-10 finishes -- with the only ones where he threatened for the Art Ross coming in his first five years. Richard was consistently top-3 throughout the length of his career.

Based on this, Richard had superior longevity and was an all-around offensive producer superior to Ovechkin.

A good argument for OV over Jagr starts with All-star team finishes
Jagr 7x 1st, 1x 2nd
OV 8x 1st, 4x 2nd, 2x 3rd

This is most certainly the worst way to compare Ovechkin and Jagr. Why would you choose such a bad point of comparison?

Ovechkin plays LW -- historically the weakest position. Jagr plays RW -- historically strong.

To give you a sense, here's Ovechkin's competition for his LW wins:
Brad Marchand, Jamie Benn, Chris Kunitz, Ray Whitney, Zetterberg, Parise, Vanek, and Heatley.

Jagr competition for RW:
Alfredsson, Bertuzzi, Iginla, Bure, Selanne, Mogilny, Neely, Recchi and Hull.

Comparing those two classes of players: the left wingers have a total of maybe 1 hall of famer. The right wingers have at least 6 hall of famers.

The issue is, Jagr has little outside of his best 8 seasons. Ovechkin is in the talk for the best LW pretty much every season, and this season is his 15th. In this regard, Ovechkin is like Bourque, who was top5 in Norris voting almost his whole career, and that brings Bourque ahead of defensemen with probably higher peak. Ovechkin is doing a similar thing on LW.

Again, Ovechkin being a contender for best LW every season needs to be put in the context of LW historically being a weak position.

Further, Jagr has 5 Art Rosses. Ovechkin has 1. Their peak offensive performance and dominance is not comparable.

You're trying to claim Jagr has 'little outside his best 8 seasons', except his point finishes are: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 6, 8, 9 -- for a total of 11x, and that stretches from 1994 to 2007, indicating an incredibly long peak (relative to Ovechkin's especially). Keep in mind that one of those #2 scoring seasons, Jagr lost to Lemieux.

Bourque's career is actually the antithesis to Ovechkin's. Bourque was a top flight defenseman for the entirety of a long career; Ovechkin had a 5 season super elite peak and then random spurts with prolific goal scoring. Jagr, who was actually #1 in points and undoubtedly the best offensive player in the league, who had longevity bested only by Howe, is far, far closer to Bourque.

 

[Voight]

Hasek at 17??? C’mom man

The thing with Hasek is that there are plenty of people, including myself, that rank or prefer Roy ahead of him.

(and I'm not saying both of them at 16/17 is justified, just a POV perspective)

 

[AD1066]

If Ovechkin has longevity on Richard, then let's compare point finishes:

Ovechkin: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 8
Richard: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

Across Richard's 14 seasons spanning his rookie season until his 35-year old season, he was top-10 in scoring 11x. The three times he didn't were due to injury or it being his rookie season.

Ovechkin, in contrast, has played 15 seasons and has 8x top-10 finishes -- with the only ones where he threatened for the Art Ross coming in his first five years. Richard was consistently top-3 throughout the length of his career.

Based on this, Richard had superior longevity and was an all-around offensive producer superior to Ovechkin.

I get that we can only compare players to their peers, but giving equal weight to point finishes in the postwar 1940s and the game as it stands today, also seems lacking to me.

 

[Cup or Bust]

If I was starting a franchise tomorrow and could pick any player in history of the NHL at the age of 18, would there be 10 players I would pick over Ovechkin? I think there would be, so in my opinion he is not. In goal scoring he is one of the greatest no doubt, but as an overall player and even an overall offense creator, I think there are a number of guys I would select as my franchise player before him. No disrespect to him either, as I think he is great.

 

[Mike8]

I get that we can only compare players to their peers, but giving equal weight to point finishes in the postwar 1940s and the game as it stands today, also seems lacking to me.

This is a fair point. However, Richard's peak continued through the '50s. During this time, Montreal's in a transition phase, Detroit's emerging as the top team led by Howe, Red Kelly and Lindsay, and Richard's still competing for the Art Ross despite the injuries + being in his mid-30s. Prior to Beliveau and Geoffrion emerging toward the tail end of Richard's career, the gap in points between Richard and #2 in scoring for Montreal was typically huge.

So you're right that it's tough, but given that Richard continued to perform at very high levels into his mid-30s against strong competition (Howe, Lindsay), we can constructively state that given a similar high level of competition through the war years he'd be just as competitive as that would be his actual prime.

 

[george14]

Um...he is already top ten.

In no particular order:

Gretzky
Mario
Orr
Howe
Jagr
Richard
Harvey
Ovi
Bobby Hull
Hasek

Just on the outside looking in:

Gartner
Yzerman
Sakic
Brett Hull

Mike Gartner? Come on. The fact you don't have Sid in the top 10 is also a joke.

 

[Slapshot Sultan]

I don't think OV is the greatest goal scorer of all time. Lemieux was a much better goal scorer than OV and he was not just a shot first player like AO. The difference between players like Lemieux, Gretzky, and even someone like Crosby is that they not only scored goals but also elite passers that made the best play. If someone like Lemieux wanted to just be a shot first guy instead of making the best play with some of the greatest passing of all time he would of averaged over a goal a game. Heck in his prime he did that already.

OV is not the greatest goal scorer of all time but the greatest pure goal scorer. The all time great players all have been great goal scorers and passers like the Lemieux, Gretzky, Crosby, Howe, and other forwards. Adding in defenseman and goaltenders puts OV much further back. I would also take a Jagr, Yzerman, LaFontaine, Forsberg, and many others over OV who for several years wasn't even a top 10 point producer in th league despite playing full seasons or close. None of the real great players was like that.

Crosby is as much behind Ovechkin in goal scoring, as Ovi is behind Crosby in playmaking.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Even if he hits 800 goals in the modern era (which he should) he will be considered by most as the greatest goal scorer of all time.

GOAT goal scorer? Check
Stanley Cup? Check
Conn Smythe? Check
Hart? 3
Pearson? 3
Rocket? 8
Calder? Check

He should definitely be amongst the top 10 greatest players of all time.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

The thing with Hasek is that there are plenty of people, including myself, that rank or prefer Roy ahead of him.

(and I'm not saying both of them at 16/17 is justified, just a POV perspective)

Hasek vs Roy is a great debate. Most historians have Roy ranked higher whereas most fans have Hasek ranked higher.

 

[daver]

Crosby is as much behind Ovechkin in goal scoring, as Ovi is behind Crosby in playmaking.

Good god, no.

Crosby is behind OV as much in goalscoring as OV is behind Crosby as an overall offensive player. Add in all around play and there is no analogy to be made.

Maybe something like the Caps are as much behind the Pens in team success as OV is behind Crosby all around.

EDIT:

Career GPG - OV 0.61 to Crosby 0.47 (#3 among the Top Ten goalscorers of their era)

Career APG - Crsoby 0.82 (#1 among the Top Ten Assists of their era) to OV 0.50 (18th among Top 25 Assists for his era).

 

[daver]

Who does he reasonably pass in the current HOH Top Ten among forwards?

None of the Big Four
Hull? Nope
Beliveau? Nope
Richard? Maybe

To be fair, Crosby will also be in the Top Ten, if he isn't already, so that is another player he would not pass. McDavid maybe knocking on the door by the time it would take OV to pass Wayne.

 

[Slapshot Sultan]

Good god, no.

Crosby is behind OV as much in goalscoring as OV is behind Crosby as an overall offensive player. Add in all around play and there is analogy to be made.

Maybe something like the Caps are as much behind the Pens in team success as OV is behind Crosby all around.

Well, your take on it is your take on it. But that's exactly how it is and the reason people argue about which is better. It really depends how you value goals to assists.

Crosby is also better goal scorer, than Ovechkin is a passer. But on the same time Ovechkin is a better goal scorer, than Crosby is a playmaker.

So overall Crosby is more balanced offensive player, but it doesn't mean hes better.

 

[Kranix]

Who does he reasonably pass in the current HOH Top Ten among forwards?

None of the Big Four
Hull? Nope
Beliveau? Nope
Richard? Maybe

To be fair, Crosby will also be in the Top Ten, if he isn't already, so that is another player he would not pass. McDavid maybe knocking on the door by the time it would take OV to pass Wayne.

How can you emphatically say he hasn't passed Brett Hull and Beliveau. He's blown Beliveau's bloody battleship out of the stars.

 

[daver]

Well, your take on it is your take on it. But that's exactly how it is and the reason people argue about which is better. It really depends how you value goals to assists.

Crosby is also better goal scorer, than Ovechkin is a passer. But on the same time Ovechkin is a better goal scorer, than Crosby is a playmaker.

Crosby is the superior offensive force. That's exactly how it is. The only debate is on who has the greatest regular season resume because Crosby missed so much time.

 

[daver]

How can you emphatically say he hasn't passed Brett Hull and Beliveau. He's blown Beliveau's bloody battleship out of the stars.

I was referring to Bobby Hull, which is an indication of how little you likely are going to respect players from the O6.

 

[Kranix]

I was referring to Bobby Hull, which is an indication of how little you likely are going to respect players from the O6.

I was going to ask actually if it was Brett or Bobby, but I jumped the gun.
Still. Bobby who?

 

[Slapshot Sultan]

Crosby is the superior offensive force. That's exactly how it is. The only debate is on who has the greatest regular season resume because Crosby missed so much time.

For you, he most certainly always will be But it is a debate in the minds of majority, and when Ovechkin reaches Wayne, it will be Ovechkin ahead and that's exactly how it will be.

 

[Muikea Bulju]

How do Ovie fans expect anyone to take them seriously when they dont even put CRosby in the top 25?

You forgot to read about the "etc". He's in there with Malkin (and McDavid is on his way)

Hart Trophies: 3-2 for Ovie
Pearsons / Lindsays: 3-3

So they are pretty even on that front.

What separates Ovie to a tier of his own from Crosby/Malkin is his all-time records - 8 Rockets, already 8th all-time in goal scoring, and pretty sure to get 2nd all time, maybe even 1st all time - and that's in the most competetive/even era of the NHL, with the cap, draft, 30-31 teams etc. And his peak was higher. Better peak, better career.

 

[daver]

For you, he most certainly always will be But it is a debate in the minds of majority, and when Ovechkin reaches Wayne, it will be Ovechkin ahead and that's exactly how it will be.

Uhhh nope. The majority clearly favour Crosby despite the fact he missed significant amount of time. Him being the better player is closer to a consensus than a majority.

 

[Muikea Bulju]

Here's the problem making lists like this...people always leave people out. There's no way Potvin is below many of those players. 3 Norris (should be 4...had one of the biggest snubs in NHL history), captained 4 cups, arguably best player on one of the best dynasties in history, first defensemen to 1,000 points, excelled on both ends of the ice. With all due respect to guys like Coffey...Potvin was clearly the better player.

There was the "etc" part. There are a bunch of guys in that tier. No doubt Potvin was a great player. I just personally don't rate him in a separate tier above Coffey etc, I think they are pretty close. Coffey managed to be great in multiple teams, he was 4th in Hart voting in 1994-95, at 33, in Detroit. Won the Norris 10 seasons after the first one, in his 4th team(!).

Hockey references point shares also have him higher than Potvin:

 

[Slapshot Sultan]

Uhhh nope. The majority clearly favour Crosby despite the fact he missed significant amount of time. Him being the better player is closer to a consensus than a majority.

Crosby might be a little ahead right now in the minds of majority, but it is a debate. And as I said, when Ovi reaches Wayne, he will be ahead.

 

[authentic]

I kind have always included Hasek as the "Big Five," but i know that isn't a universal thing.

If OV tops Wayne, then yes, there would be an official big five, i think

The problem with this is I don't think there's any amount of goals that would make him a better player than Crosby, or even Hasek and Jagr for that matter (just because he leans heavily towards goals for most of his points does not make him better than Jagr and it's doubtful he will end up with his longevity). Though if he does break it or even get really close I'm sure many will go ahead and rank him 5th which wouldn't be too outlandish considering he will be basically the clear best goal scorer of all time.

 

[Muikea Bulju]

Crosby might be a little ahead right now in the minds of majority, but it is a debate. And as I said, when Ovi reaches Wayne, he will be ahead.

Only highly suggestible fools that have succumbed to media hype think Crosby is better.

When the next generation grows up without having listened to 20 years of Pierre McGuire hyping up every single thing Crosby does, Ovie will be the concensus pick.