Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[McVechkin]

I care but not as much as lots of buffoons here. I care more how big of an impact certain player has for his team's success.

if that’s the case, you have to say Crosby isn’t important to pens. Pens do well without him, always have. Caps are a 500 team without ovechkin.

and no. I don’t actually think Crosby is useless. He’s one of the best players of all time and it’s silly to think otherwise.. but you can make the numbers say what you want. And pens were something like 18-4-3 (ish)... so crosby is irrelevant to pens success. Just been riding their success his whole career.

 

[FinRanger]

How did Crosby make more of an impact playing less games? Your confusing “better” with “impactful.” Crosby being better than Ovechkin has nothing to do with their impacts on their team, and Crosby certainly can’t make an impact on his own team not playing, right?

No one claimed Messier was better than Lemieux, although Messier has more cups because he played more games and was able to contribute to his team, that can be said more or less, doesn’t make him better, but Messier played more games, thus contributing more, thus having the chance of making a positive impact. Basic stuff.

Again you claim hyperbole yet make such subjective and opinionated statements like “Crosby makes better decisions.” Based on what exactly? So Ovechkin shooting the puck isn’t the best decision.....even though he’s a goal scorer.....and has one of the best shots.....and has more goals than anyone.....and yet in your expertise, it’s NOT the right decision.

[mod]

[mod] Even if Ovechkin has very good shot that does not mean shooting is the right option in every situation. That is why he has 40+17 this season. He spams shots in situtions where pass would be better decision. For example Panarin is a great example. He plays with scrubs but is able to elevate them because he almost always makes the right decision on ice. Sometimes it is shot and sometimes pass. But he is ble to figure it out very quickly and make the decision. Points matter more than goals.

And when it comes to your games argument that is just silly. Injuries for the most part are because of luck. Ovechkin has had more luck. That does not mean he is more impactful or better player.

 

[Sentinel]

A way to think about is, looking at a modern lineup, the top 10 should have 6 forwards, a goalie, and 3 defensemen. Is Ovechkin one of the top 6 forwards of all time? After the obvious 3, off the top of my head, I'd still put at least Hull, Yzerman, and Crosby ahead of him.

I am a Wings fan, but there is no way Yzerman is over Ovechkin at this point. Yzerman had no Harts, no Art Rosses (even if you remove Gretzky and Lemieux, he'd only have one of each), and no Richards. He was an 1AST once (again, lost another one to Lemieux). 1 Selke, 1 Conn Smythe. Ovechkin is head-and-shoulders above him.

Hull has point finishes and Art Rosses on Ovechkin. But in context of playing for a much better (and fairly underachieving) team and total numbers, Ovechkin is neck-in-neck with him now.

Crosby has already been beaten to death. His injuries matter. Ovechkin nearly doubles the hardware on the guy.

 

[strattonius]

Have him around 10 already - if he eclipses the goal record hard not to have him right around 5. All these goals and a ton of hardware.

What puts Ovechkin in the top 10 is the cup and Smythe - it put to rest the idea that he didn't know how to win. Hes done it all.

 

[Spacey]

Bobby Orr is in the top 4, so clearly there isn't too much of a premium on games played.

A way to think about is, looking at a modern lineup, the top 10 should have 6 forwards, a goalie, and 3 defensemen. Is Ovechkin one of the top 6 forwards of all time? After the obvious 3, off the top of my head, I'd still put at least Hull, Yzerman, and Crosby ahead of him.

Big picture, what hurts Ovechkin is that in a big playoff game, there are way too many guys I take over Ovechkin.

this post smells like maple syrup

 

[Iapyi]

Wouldn't this be at least one meat or potato?

Hilarious.

 

[Ben Grimm]

No. Crosby is 12th and OV is 22nd.

 

[SouthGeorge]

So by your criteria, Ovie is better than Crosby?

Careful there, your Pens fans buddies are going to be angry with you. Lol.

Umm.. You ignored the Championship part? +/-. Linemates. Etc.

You can't just look at goals and go, he's 8 all time so definitely Top 10 player all time. Who does that? Nobody does that in baseball for home runs or basketball with points. All I was saying is if you are going strictly off that then points is a better parameter. He's 38 all time in points and about where I have him as all time player.

 

[Midnight Judges]

No. Crosby is 12th and OV is 22nd.

Those numbers have zero validity.

 

[third man in]

Umm.. You ignored the Championship part? +/-. Linemates. Etc.

You can't just look at goals and go, he's 8 all time so definitely Top 10 player all time. Who does that? Nobody does that in baseball for home runs or basketball with points. All I was saying is if you are going strictly off that then points is a better parameter. He's 38 all time in points and about where I have him as all time player.

Wait didnt you just say if he passes Gretzky he would maybe be in your top 40-50? You're all over the place.

 

[wetcoast]

I am a Wings fan, but there is no way Yzerman is over Ovechkin at this point. Yzerman had no Harts, no Art Rosses (even if you remove Gretzky and Lemieux, he'd only have one of each), and no Richards. He was an 1AST once (again, lost another one to Lemieux). 1 Selke, 1 Conn Smythe. Ovechkin is head-and-shoulders above him.

Hull has point finishes and Art Rosses on Ovechkin. But in context of playing for a much better (and fairly underachieving) team and total numbers, Ovechkin is neck-in-neck with him now.

Crosby has already been beaten to death. His injuries matter. Ovechkin nearly doubles the hardware on the guy.

I agree with most of this as Ovi is clearly ahead of Yzerman at this point and at worst dead even with Bobby Hull.

That being said Crosby is still ahead of him all time as an overall player and he is younger so likely to keep that gap going forward as well.

 

[wetcoast]

Those numbers have zero validity.

Are you questioning that they are not true?

Because you know full well that they are.

 

[SouthGeorge]

Wait didnt you just say if he passes Gretzky he would maybe be in your top 40-50? You're all over the place.

Correct, I factor everything. If he ends up #1 in goals. He will probably be around 20's in all time points. 1 Championship. 40% ppg. 80% goals scored the same way. Never carried a line. Always needed top talent and advantage to score. Might crack Top 200 all time +/-. He would be in the 40-50 range. If he goes off and gets another Championship. Then 30 range.

His all time points and +/- tell the better story of his all time standings and impact in a team sport than just goals.

 

[zappa4ever]

14 goals in 7 games
3 hat tricks in 6 games
3rd player ever with 15 30 goal seasons (Gretzky and Howe are not the other 2)
2nd player ever with 11 40 goal seasons
3rd player ever with 8 50 goal seasons
leading the league at 34 years old
LOL enjoy the ride hockey fans
(and non-fans continue to try to twist stats into a negative narrative I guess? It's amusing seeing posters spending a lot of time with dozens and dozens of posts trying to knock him down)

 

[Midnight Judges]

Are you questioning that they are not true?

Because you know full well that they are.

No, I am asserting that the opinions that led to those numbers are based on falsehoods, bias, exaggerations, Canadian nativism, and influence from a disproportionate number of Penguins fans.

Conceptually, it could have been a great project, but unfortunately it fell far short of having any semblance of intellectual honesty.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Correct, I factor everything. If he ends up #1 in goals. He will probably be around 20's in all time points. 1 Championship. 40% ppg. 80% goals scored the same way. Never carried a line. Always needed top talent and advantage to score. Might crack Top 200 all time +/-. He would be in the 40-50 range. If he goes off and gets another Championship. Then 30 range.

His all time points and +/- tell the better story of his all time standings and impact in a team sport than just goals.

You should go to the history forum. Your falsehoods would fit right in there. They'd love you.

Who was on Ovie's line in 2005-06?

What data do you have to back up the assertion that 80% of his goals are scored the same way? And why would it matter anyway?

 

[Dr Pepper]

Why are you all acting like fools? You know what I mean. Just look at the games played. Almost 200 games more for Ovechkin

You're right, Ovechkin IS less injury-prone than Crosby.

Good point!

 

[wetcoast]

No, I am asserting that the opinions that led to those numbers are based on falsehoods, bias, exaggerations, Canadian nativism, and influence from a disproportionate number of Penguins homers, etc.

Conceptually, it could have been a great project but unfortunately it fell far short of having any semblance of intellectual honesty.

So the jist of your long response is that the numbers are indeed valid right?

 

[Midnight Judges]

So the jist of your long response is that the numbers are indeed valid right?

No they definitely are not valid. They were posted on the interwebs though - so I guess you've got that going for you.

 

[discobob]

Umm.. You ignored the Championship part? +/-. Linemates. Etc.

You can't just look at goals and go, he's 8 all time so definitely Top 10 player all time. Who does that? Nobody does that in baseball for home runs or basketball with points. All I was saying is if you are going strictly off that then points is a better parameter. He's 38 all time in points and about where I have him as all time player.

Except points NBA =/= points in NHL

Comparing the two sports would be NBA points vs NHL goals

In that case, your comparing Kareem and Gretzky. If OV keeps this up, Kareem feels like a good comparable. Not considered the best basketball player ever (probably between 3 and 6?), but definitely top 10...

 

[wetcoast]

No they definitely are not valid. They were posted on the interwebs though - so I guess you've got that going for you.

Well if they are wrong then exactly how are they wrong?

Those numbers come from their actual production versus the games they have played in so it must be some alternate universe that you are referencing here.

Plain and simple the PPG production stats and rankings put forward earlier are 100% factually true and not debatable.

Why you insist otherwise is baffling.

 

[ScaredStreit]

There was the "etc" part. There are a bunch of guys in that tier. No doubt Potvin was a great player. I just personally don't rate him in a separate tier above Coffey etc, I think they are pretty close. Coffey managed to be great in multiple teams, he was 4th in Hart voting in 1994-95, at 33, in Detroit. Won the Norris 10 seasons after the first one, in his 4th team(!).

Hockey references point shares also have him higher than Potvin:

View attachment 316299

The gap between Coffey and Potvin offensively is nowhere near as big as the gap between them defensively.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Well if they are wrong then exactly how are they wrong?

Those numbers come from their actual production versus the games they have played in so it must be some alternate universe that you are referencing here.

Plain and simple the PPG production stats and rankings put forward earlier are 100% factually true and not debatable.

Why you insist otherwise is baffling.

Uh, we are very obviously talking about two different things. I'm pretty sue the guy I was responding to was referencing the top 100 players project in the history forum.

 

[SA16]

He's pretty clearly the 8th best player of all time.

 

[thadd]

He's consistently dominant.
I have him above Jagr, who I now believe to be the 2nd European forward of all time.
Sorry Aves fans. I'm 100% sure I'd put Forsberg over Jagr if he'd stayed healthy and had a longer peak.