Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[Fantomas]

Great. Ovy has surpassed Hull in every category except Art Rosses. His longevity makes up for it though.

The thing is, even the Hull Art Rosses don't make that great a case in his favor. Both Hull and Ovechkin led the NHL in points per game three times.

The only reason Ovy didn't win two more Rosses is because he missed a handful of games in two seasons. He missed winning those Rosses by a smidgeon.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Classic HF, trying to find a way to knock down the best scorer to have ever played the game.

What’s more crazy is I don’t see Crosby’s line mates being greatly benefited. How many of his line mates have had PPG seasons? Have been elite scorers? 50 goals? 100 points? He’s always talked about as making his line mates better, yet their stats don’t show that....he’s praised as a playmaker and overall balanced offensive player, but he doesn’t have that “it” factor that Ovechkin has in his goal scoring.

he isn’t a playmaker. He isn’t “required” to make the players around him score just as much as him, especially since none of Crosby’s score as much as he does. Ovechkin has lead the Caps in points all but TWO seasons. He’s literally been their best scorer and overall offensive player, but dude....why aren’t his assists numbers higher?!?

 

[Sentinel]

Top 10, maybe. Goals are obviously the "king" record by many but not sure Ovi has shown he can make his teammates better and he isn't much of a playmaker. I would also like to see what he could do on an average team. I'm still not ready to give him 895 yet either.

Ovy has 553 regular season assists. That's 7 fewer than Hull's 560 NHL regular season total assists. Nothing to sneeze at.

As for an "average team", I give you:

2005-06 Washington Capitals.

ROOKIE Alex Ovechkin: 52+54=106 pts
Dainuis Zubrus: 23+34=57 pts
Jeff Halpern: 11+33=44 pts
and so on, and so forth.
With such aces on defense as Jamie Heward (led all d-men in scoring with 27 points), Bruce Laich, Steve Eminger, and Brendan Witt. Rookie Brian Green played 22 games. Their goaltender, Olaf Kolzig, had a 0.896 %save.

Last place in their division, did not make playoffs.

This is not just an AVERAGE team. It's a BAD team.

 

[Sentinel]

The thing is, even the Hull Art Rosses don't make that great a case in his favor. Both Hull and Ovechkin led the NHL in points per game three times.

The only reason Ovy didn't win two more Rosses is because he missed a handful of games in two seasons. He missed winning those Rosses by a smidgeon.

That can be countered by the point finishes where Hull leads Ovy decisively.

 

[pitcher]

Why is “making your teammates better” a must? That has never been a standard up until Ovechkin, where apparently having more assists is required in order to have a certain standards. Like why is him being less of a playmaker being used against him rather than his impact as a goal scorer?

I swear, when it comes to Ovechkin, goal posts are constantly moved.

Don't you know that making great pass to teammates to help them get goals makes them better, but being able to get yourself in position to receive their passes and convert them into goals like no one else and help them get assists doesn't?

So if I follow this logic, helping a teammate to get more goals means that you make them better, but helping them to get more assists doesn't. Have they been telling us all this time that goals > assists? I'm lost.

 

[Fantomas]

That can be countered by the point finishes where Hull leads Ovy decisively.

Everything can be countered.

 

[Pay Carl]

Dude, it's a consensus that The Big 4 is Gretzky, Howe, Orr, and Lemieux. Any other opinion would not find much understanding in the world of hockey.

I mean I’ve certainly seen polls about it here

sheesh

 

[SouthGeorge]

I already had a good idea how he scored before seeing highlights. 2nd goal, typical. Then an empty netter. He's Top 5 all time in empty net goals, fact.

Some of you are acting like I'm saying he's not a HoFer. 40-50th best player in a league all time is a great accomplishment and exactly where he belongs.

 

[pitcher]

I mean I’ve certainly seen polls about it here

sheesh

Nah not just here. Gordie Howe definitely is in the big 4. There are solid arguments that Howe is greater than both Orr and Lemieux, specially because of their shortened careers, but Howe in his peak was really dominant too.

 

[ALLCAPSALLTHETIME]

Top 10, maybe. Goals are obviously the "king" record by many but not sure Ovi has shown he can make his teammates better and he isn't much of a playmaker. I would also like to see what he could do on an average team. I'm still not ready to give him 895 yet either.

Closing in on top 100 in assists. 10 away, atm.

Yeah, he isn’t much of a playmaker.

 

[ALLCAPSALLTHETIME]

Ovy has 553 regular season assists. That's 7 fewer than Hull's 560 NHL regular season total assists. Nothing to sneeze at.

As for an "average team", I give you:

2005-06 Washington Capitals.

ROOKIE Alex Ovechkin: 52+54=106 pts
Dainuis Zubrus: 23+34=57 pts
Jeff Halpern: 11+33=44 pts
and so on, and so forth.
With such aces on defense as Jamie Heward (led all d-men in scoring with 27 points), Bruce Laich, Steve Eminger, and Brendan Witt. Rookie Brian Green played 22 games. Their goaltender, Olaf Kolzig, had a 0.896 %save.

Last place in their division, did not make playoffs.

This is not just an AVERAGE team. It's a BAD team.

For most of his rookie year, Ovie had more goals than any other teammate had points. Lol.

 

[Spacey]

Hockey is a game about goals. Its not about secondary assists. Eight time rocket winner, eight all-time goal scorer and some guys still told us about empty-netters and ppgoals of a left spot. Thank God that the Caps won the Cup, or that morons told us that all his goals dont count. I think posts like one that SouthGeorge wrote on this page, are pure provocation.
Sorry, bad english.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Don't you know that making great pass to teammates to help them get goals makes them better, but being able to get yourself in position to receive their passes and convert them into goals like no one else and help them get assists doesn't?

So if I follow this logic, helping a teammate to get more goals means that you make them better, but helping them to get more assists doesn't. Have they been telling us all this time that goals > assists? I'm lost.

Yup, that sums it up

 

[filinski77]

I already had a good idea how he scored before seeing highlights. 2nd goal, typical. Then an empty netter. He's Top 5 all time in empty net goals, fact.

Some of you are acting like I'm saying he's not a HoFer. 40-50th best player in a league all time is a great accomplishment and exactly where he belongs.

1) Gretzky is top 1 in empty net goals - FACT

2) Gretzky has a larger % of his goals scored on empty nets than Ovechkin does - FACT

Dude, did Ovechkin screw your mom or something? Such senseless hate and ignorance it's actually comical.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I already had a good idea how he scored before seeing highlights. 2nd goal, typical. Then an empty netter. He's Top 5 all time in empty net goals, fact.

Some of you are acting like I'm saying he's not a HoFer. 40-50th best player in a league all time is a great accomplishment and exactly where he belongs.

40-50th best player all time with 3 Lindsays, Harts, an Art Ross, a cup and Smythe. Sure bud...

let me know when you get down from that lonely mountain top you have created for yourself, I think the thin air up there is messing with your brain thus affecting your judgement.

 

[SouthGeorge]

1) Gretzky is top 1 in empty net goals - FACT

2) Gretzky has a larger % of his goals scored on empty nets than Ovechkin does - FACT

Dude, did Ovechkin screw your mom or something? Such senseless hate and ignorance it's actually comical.

Gretzky has played 350 more games and has 50 less ppg than Ovi and 1,400 more assist.

 

[filinski77]

Yup, that sums it up

People don't get it hahaha. Imagine taking Player A who is a 'good' playmaker. His most common line-mate is TJ Oshie, a 'good' goalscorer. Oshie may help Player A get 15 assists in a season, but if you replace Oshie with Ovechkin, Ovechkin will help Player A get 30 assists on the season.

How is that not making Player A better. Theoretically, no player can actually increase the skill and ability of another player, only help them produce more, and that is exactly what Ovechkin does when he scores goals like no-one else in history has. It's not Ovechkin's fault that he doesn't consistently play with decent goalscorers, he's always been a great passer, there's only so much he can do.

Even the NHL knows goals are more valuable than assists (no trophy for assists, art ross tie breaker is goals etc.), so how does being the best at it not count for something? It's ludicrous

 

[filinski77]

Gretzky has played 350 more games and has 50 less ppg than Ovi and 1,400 more assist.

Do you not understand that % of empty net goals calculated = (EN goals) / Total goals

Games are irrelevant here. I really don't want to insult your intelligence at all, or your ridiculous and baseless opinions. So I'm done.

 

[SouthGeorge]

All time factors everything; goals, assist, +/-, Championships.

Ovi is 38th all time in points. That's a better parameter for his all time rank than goals.

 

[GreatGonzo]

People don't get it hahaha. Imagine taking Player A who is a 'good' playmaker. His most common line-mate is TJ Oshie, a 'good' goalscorer. Oshie may help Player A get 15 assists in a season, but if you replace Oshie with Ovechkin, Ovechkin will help Player A get 30 assists on the season.

How is that not making Player A better. Theoretically, no player can actually increase the skill and ability of another player, only help them produce more, and that is exactly what Ovechkin does when he scores goals like no-one else in history has. It's not Ovechkin's fault that he doesn't consistently play with decent goalscorers, he's always been a great passer, there's only so much he can do.

Even the NHL knows goals are more valuable than assists (no trophy for assists, art ross tie breaker is goals etc.), so how does being the best at it not count for something? It's ludicrous

Exactly, but all this truth won’t stop many from bringing up Kuzy or Backstrom as Ovechkins “need to have” guys in order to score. Like you said, as great of playmakers as they are, Ovechkin being the best goal scorer certainly helps their numbers regardless.

It’s all just backlash from Ovechkin FINALLY getting the recognition he deserves. He needed a cup and smythe to be Credible, Did it....and still many liked to belittle that. He’s on the verge of being a legendary goal scorer and player.....”ya but he doesn’t make the players around him better! See his assists totals!”

it’s safe to say he won’t get the love and respect unanimously like he deserves. Being 2nd to Crosby in terms of the best player crown has always been used against him....which still baffles me....whether you have him second or not, what is terrible about being second to another generational player and talent?

 

[GreatGonzo]

I mean, you're intentionally missing the point here I think. The post I was responding to was saying that Hull had Mikita on his team, so it's hard to say that Hull got those Art Rosses on his own. My point was: hey, he did it on his own. So while it's difficult to differentiate at times, it's possible to see that at 21 years old without Mikita or a HHOF Hawks team, Hull was pretty great.

But I didn't think my post needed this explanation.

I got the point, but my point was as great as Hull was early on, Mikita arguably past him as the better player, on his own team. That shouldn’t be a slight against Hull, who in his own right is a legend.

 

[ALLCAPSALLTHETIME]

All time factors everything; goals, assist, +/-, Championships.

Ovi is 38th all time in points. That's a better parameter for his all time rank than goals.

So by your criteria, Ovie is better than Crosby?

Careful there, your Pens fans buddies are going to be angry with you. Lol.

 

[GreatGonzo]

All time factors everything; goals, assist, +/-, Championships.

Ovi is 38th all time in points. That's a better parameter for his all time rank than goals.

There are at least 15-20 players ahead of him that Ovechkin has clearly passed. Not just as a player, but in terms of career achievements. Not just that but there is at least 15-20 players that don’t meet these standards that you have placed.

once again, “points” matter, but not goals. And the goal posts keep shifting.....

 

[ALLCAPSALLTHETIME]

Exactly, but all this truth won’t stop many from bringing up Kuzy or Backstrom as Ovechkins “need to have” guys in order to score. Like you said, as great of playmakers as they are, Ovechkin being the best goal scorer certainly helps their numbers regardless.

It’s all just backlash from Ovechkin FINALLY getting the recognition he deserves. He needed a cup and smythe to be Credible, Did it....and still many liked to belittle that. He’s on the verge of being a legendary goal scorer and player.....”ya but he doesn’t make the players around him better! See his assists totals!”

it’s safe to say he won’t get the love and respect unanimously like he deserves. Being 2nd to Crosby in terms of the best player crown has always been used against him....which still baffles me....whether you have him second or not, what is terrible about being second to another generational player and talent?

Exactly it. This was the level of exposure that Crosby got from the NHL and the Canadian hockey mafia errr...media from day 1. You were absolutely bombarded with it.

I suppose Pens fans don’t like when the shoe is on the other foot. Tough! Lol.

Nice to see Ovie finally getting his due.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Exactly it. This was the level of exposure that Crosby got from the NHL and the Canadian hockey mafia errr...media from day 1. You were absolutely bombarded with it.

I suppose Pens fans don’t like when the shoe is on the other foot. Tough! Lol.

Nice to see Ovie finally getting his due.

Pen fans have made Crosby and everything he does and has achieved as the standard to abide by and live up to. Hell, even “playmaking” is suddenly a pre-requisite for being a Top 10 player while his goal scoring numbers and overall dominance isn’t enough to overcome that lack of. Ridiculous. Both are top 10 players in my eyes, where you have them is entirely opinion, but the ones who think Ovechkin “isn’t close” to top 10 by using his lack of assists and “short” peak as reasons need to get a clue.