Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[Cursed Lemon]

Where do you rank Richard with his one Hart and zero Art Rosses?

Below Bobby Hull.

 

[filinski77]

Position matters. Centers and goalies are way more important. Elite center can carry wingers. It can't happen the other way around. Not to mention 37% of his career goals his team needed an advantage.

1st bolded
This is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

2nd bolded
a) You realize that Ovechkin is 11th all time in Even strength goals right? And will most likely finish top 4-5 in the league history in this regard.
b) He's also lead the league in even strength goals the 3rd most times in NHL history (tied with Gretzky).
c) Lemieux scored 34% of his goals on the power play, is he a trash goalscorer too? (Or is the cutoff 35% and higher for you)

All of this without even getting into league scoring and how it was statistically easier to put up goals back in the day.

Unless you bring some substantive evidence with your claims, I'm done arguing with your baseless, uninformed claims.

EDIT: Ovi scored 2 back-to-back goals right after this... Very fitting
EDIT2: Hat trick LMAO

 

[Sentinel]

I know you love him and for good reason, he is awesome ! But that man is not a Top 10 hockey player of all-time. His playoffs track record is disappointing for a player of his caliber, despite his Smythe. Top 10 players all have better playoff records. All of them.

Top 20 perhaps, at the margin.

You are really out to lunch here. REALLY. Ovechkin has already passed both Hull and Richard (one Hart, zero Art Rosses). Even Beliveau has ONE Art Ross and TWO Harts. The only thing Richard and Jean have on Ovy is playoffs, and he is not THAT far behind then, playing on a MUCH weaker team than the Dynasty Habs and 60s Hawks (5 HOFers).

If Ovechkin is even within 50 goals of Gretzky's record, he will be THE GREATEST goalscorer in history and #3 Greatest Forward of All Time. He will be a consensus Top 7 player (and #5 for me).

 

[Sentinel]

Below Bobby Hull.

Great. Ovy has surpassed Hull in every category except Art Rosses. His longevity makes up for it though.

 

[Sentinel]

Are people drunk in this thread? IF he breaks the Gretz record (or even gets close, really) then maybe top ten. Maybe.

we are talking about a one trick pony who, but for one magical run, has been a total disappointment in big spots. For his whole career.

Crosby is leaps and bounds ahead. Not even close, really.

This is, my friends, how you spell "bias."

 

[tarheelhockey]

This is a great and honest opinion but hockey "insiders" are also extremely high on Niedermeyer and Toews.

Is your opinion or line of thinking change on them because you saw them?

Put another way, I also look at insiders opinions for guys that I haven't seen a lot or even at all but many other factors come into play as well.

Even if one has never seen and thus doesn't include any pre expansion players, there is a very strong argument that there might be 10 post expansion (or guys who played a significant amount of time post expansion) guys better than Ovechkin in Howe, Bobby Hull, Orr, Gretzky, Mario, Messier, Crosby, Haske, Roy, Jagr, Bourque and Lidstrom for starters.

Now I wouldn't personally place all of those guys ahead of Ovi but that's still only covering around 1/2 of the all time time period at best.

FWIW, I think if Martians came to Earth in 10 million years, and had to rank Toews and Niedermayer entirely based on the archaeological record, they would ask two questions:

Niedermayer - What’s with this guy being a top-tier superstar yet only ever being a Norris finalist in a 3-year span?

Toews - What’s with this guy only getting top-tier superstar recognition while he was playing on a stacked team?

I think if we approach contemporary opinions critically they can be the basis for good judgments.

 

[filinski77]

With his hat trick just now, Ovechkin hit the 40 goal mark on the season, giving him 11 in his career, sole possession of 2nd all time. One more and he ties Gretzky.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

We are witness!

 

[filinski77]

With his GWG tonight, also ties for 4th all time in game winning goals.

 

[GreatGonzo]

The post you're responding to didn't claim Francis was better than Ovechkin. Their point was that Francis' all-time points aren't the be-all, end-all, and some context is important. And so the broader point, I think, is that while Ovechkin's goal scoring dominance is impressive and deserving of major recognition and does launch Ovechkin into one of the all-time best players, the broader context is that Ovechkin's game outside of goal scoring hasn't been 'all-time great'. That is, Ovechkin's elite peak was superb--but on the shorter end, and since that peak Ovechkin's been a great sniper but not overall dominant offensively.

Put another way: Ovechkin's true 'elite offensive player' peak runs from 2006-2010. Since then he's been a great, prolific goal scorer and had some top-10 appearances, but he's not a real contender for the scoring lead and is more frequently outside the top-10 points. On the other hand, players like Malkin, Kane and Crosby continue to put up great stats and have had far, far longer peaks. Similarly, all-time greats typically had that longevity in peak dominance; Bobby Hull being a good example of that.

There's a danger in putting too much emphasis on goal-scoring as opposed to the more important abilities: generating offense and overall player impact. Ovechkin's not going to compete with the all-around greats who stifled the opposition's offense with their great defensive/possesion work while putting up high point totals, and so -- in my mind -- his overall offensive output needed to have a longer peak. There's gotta be some facet of his game outside of just goals that puts him in contention with players who generated more offense, especially since many of those players played superior all-around games.

I mean once again I’m baffled by the idea that it’s still being used against Ovechkin that he simply scores to many goals and doesn’t do enough of everything else. You say it’s to much emphasis, yet he’s being called possibly the best goal scorer ever....how is that to much emphasis? That should be praised. He doesn’t drive enough offense? Even better, be creates it, and he creates it in ways that many players haven’t. Scoring goals is the peak of offensive production regardless, and when your scoring more goals than everyone else and that leads to a lot individual success and team success, it really shouldn’t be used to stifle him.

I mean what players are you referring to that have driven the play better and/or have shut down the opposing team in ways that rival what Ovechkin has done outside of the obvious?

His peak may have been “short” but it’s still a peak that puts him up there with the all time greats. I also don’t understand the standard that needs to be met in terms of length of peak. Especially given how he maintained his goal scoring, won another Hart after 2010, and was a nominee in 2015 while being a Lindsay nominee both times. He then went on to win a cup and smythe years later. I don’t see how lack of being overall offensively better and defense takes away all this.

 

[TRASHCAT]

He might make my Top 40-50 all time when he's done. You have to weigh everything. 40% of his goals on powerplay. That's like rewarding Curry for free throws or penalty kick goals. Then you have to factor he scored a majority of his goals two different ways. That's like saying Ray Allen is Top 10 because he was the best 3 point shooter. Centers and goalies are just way more important than wingers. Center is the franchise QB. Wingers are dime a dozen. Plug and play. Some centers and goalies with worse stats get the nod over him. Don't get me wrong, one of the best pure one trick pony goal scorers ever. 40-50 range all time.

you make me laugh

 

[TRASHCAT]

Why are some Ovechkin fans still so insecure? 8 has accomplished just about everything a player can no need to constantly try and knock down Sid to make OV look better.

just had a pens fan act like ov isnt top 30

 

[Bounces R Way]

GOATvechkin at it again. Ho hum another 40 goals. He's coming for ya Wayne

 

[StevenF1919]

He's the greatest goalscorer of all time and it's not even an argument. It's absurd what he's doing right now.

 

[Demandedace]

Wh

He might make my Top 40-50 all time when he's done. You have to weigh everything. 40% of his goals on powerplay. That's like rewarding Curry for free throws or penalty kick goals. Then you have to factor he scored a majority of his goals two different ways. That's like saying Ray Allen is Top 10 because he was the best 3 point shooter. Centers and goalies are just way more important than wingers. Center is the franchise QB. Wingers are dime a dozen. Plug and play. Some centers and goalies with worse stats get the nod over him. Don't get me wrong, one of the best pure one trick pony goal scorers ever. 40-50 range all time.

Why did you waste precious internet bandwidth on this horrific take?

 

[txpd]

Natural hat tricks in less than 5 mins in the last 10 mins of a 3rd period trailing by a goal. This is how you get a cult following

 

[Frosty415]

Can't believe he's about to rip 700 goals.


What a LEGACY

 

[Hint1k]

I am pretty sure there is mistake in the thread name. There should be no zero after 1.

 

[Mike8]

Best player at his position. Ovechkin can say that. Crosby cannot and never will.

Try to rationalize it however you wish, it’s a fact.

It's simply not a fact. Bobby Hull is the best LW of all time.

None of these are facts, by the way. Opinions are not facts. As close to what we can come to is consensus, and there is broad consensus that Hull is the best LW of all time. By the end of Ovechkin's career, we'll see if that consensus changes. I suspect it won't. You're free to disagree. There's no reason to try to raise your disagreement to the level of it being a fact, though.

 

[txpd]

He has 29 games to score 20 goals for 60

 

[Hint1k]

there is broad consensus that Hull is the best LW of all time.

Where did you get that consensus from? Canadian mass-media? Well, I hate to break it to you, but Canada is not the whole world. There are 7.5 billion people on earth. Canada is only what 0.038 billion? Yeah, consensus

 

[Frosty415]

It's simply not a fact. Bobby Hull is the best LW of all time.

None of these are facts, by the way. Opinions are not facts. As close to what we can come to is consensus, and there is broad consensus that Hull is the best LW of all time. By the end of Ovechkin's career, we'll see if that consensus changes. I suspect it won't. You're free to disagree. There's no reason to try to raise your disagreement to the level of it being a fact, though.

Ovechkin is better than Hull.

That sir, is a FACT.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Great. Ovy has surpassed Hull in every category except Art Rosses. His longevity makes up for it though.

Bobby Hull's point finishes are:

1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9

Two of those 2nd place finishes are 1-2 point losses to Stan Mikita, and this is before he went and tore up the WHA to be its 3rd-leading point getter on the back-9 of his career.

Ovechkin's point finishes are:

1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 8

Yes, his goal-scoring is what puts him without question into the top-10, but we are talking about who deserves to sit under the Big 4. Their resume has to be as close to immaculate as possible. Nevermind that Hull is the goal-scoring mark that Ovechkin needed to beat in order to even get here.

 

[Mike8]

First - I gave 5 accomplishments, only 2 related to goals. I don't see how that is 'mostly goal-oriented'

Second - Ovechkin won his first Hart in 2008, and his last in 2013. Not too sure how stretched apart you really want him to win that award? I mean, Crosby won his 1st of 2 in 2007, and his 2nd of 2 in 2014. Literally only a 1 year extra stretch? Although I will agree his dominance as far as point production is on the smaller side compared to other top-10 players, the main argument for Ovechkin has always been being the best goalscorer of all time (or one of the best), as well as a 3 year peak that rivals anyone not named Lemieux and Gretzky.

Third - I agree he is tied with other players, but either way he's still tied of 3rd in that trophy, and shows his dominance in that regard.

Last - I said "8th all time in leading the league in points/gp" Ie. he has lead the NHL in points/gp (per season) the 8th most times all time with 3. Which also goes to show that there really were not that many players outside of Gretzky etc. that had such long periods of crushing the league in points or points/gp. Which is exactly why Ovechkin's goalscoring lifts him above and beyond the other players who were also only top point producers for a few years.

On the second point - Right, so we're presuming 2008-2013 was his peak? Let's be intellectually honest here. I wrote that Ovechkin's peak was his first 5 seasons. Are you disagreeing with that? Let's stick to the point here and not nitpick. I don't get why you went through that whole paragraph only to agree fundamentally with my point at the end (re brief prime). Seems we're not disagreeing here.

Third -- no, it doesn't show his dominance. He's tied for third with three players! And two players are 1 after him who are not remotely close to top-10. And, a whole slew of players in the top-10 or competing for top-10 pre-date the award. So, you're totally disingenuous in offering this up as evidence for Ovechkin's record demonstrating such dominance to be clear-cut top-10. It's good, yes, and puts him in the conversation of being in the top ~20 players, but it doesn't do nearly as much as you're implying.

That last stat is... so obscure and not particularly noteworthy, since we've already established that Ovechkin's (relatively brief) prime is great--the issue is more that it was brief.

I get the sense that we more or less agree on the facts, and where we differ is on our interpretation of what's most relevant in evaluating top talents. Which is fair.

 

[Pay Carl]

Bobby Hull's point finishes are:

1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9

Two of those 2nd place finishes are 1-2 point losses to Stan Mikita, and this is before he went and tore up the WHA to be its 3rd-leading point getter on the back-9 of his career.

Ovechkin's point finishes are:

1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 8

Yes, his goal-scoring is what puts him without question into the top-10, but we are talking about who deserves to sit under the Big 4. Their resume has to be as close to immaculate as possible. Nevermind that Hull is the goal-scoring mark that Ovechkin needed to beat in order to even get here.

The big 4?

Wayne, Mario, Bobby, ..?