OT: OT thread number 11 | No More Bad News PLEASE!

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CupofOil

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Maybe all the fans that have been made jokes of should go up to hollywood and bitch slap all these clowns. A good starting place for a number of reasons. (I'm joking)

But many of the people you would find there are self centered egomaniacs that think nothing of flying their lear jet while lecturing us about global warming and any other soup du jour cause they know nothing about.

My first question would be why anybody watches this tripe. My next would be why anybody would defend either from criticism.

But to walk right up to somebody on stage, unsuspecting, and cold cock him like that. Thats on Will Smith. This is not a place where violence would be expected on the stage. If its a boxing ring, hockey rink, etc then to be expected that something might occur.

I will downplay this as well. We're talking about Alopecia as an issue. A disease that simply results in the falling out of hair. It isn't life threatening, it isn't debilitating, it isn't a stigma, its isn't at all insurmountable. My first girl friend had it, I didn't know till I was dating her that she'd been wearing a wig. She's a self assured professional now. It didn't bother her deeply, she joked about it, and was confident and not adversely impacted. If somebody tried to make it some kind of big deal she would stop them and say it isn't any serious ailment, it isn't cancer, " I'm healthy, blessed, fortunate."

So starting with this "Jada suffers from alopecia" (in the twitter) to even consider it as something that someone has to "suffer" through is misleading. Which seems commonplace in an age where a growing segment of people might want any condition to be self debilitating excuse. Hair is just an evolutionary redundant vestige. It isn't anything, it isn't important. I shave my head bald any chance I get. love not having hair. So that Alopecia could even be considered "lacking something that is nothing". lets stop making it into some major ailment.

Our new friend, Ben Stelter, now he has suffered, he could use support, just to put it into perspective.

anyway..anybody want to punch me in the face after reading this? ;)
Exactly right. Some people are talking about how horrible and inappropriate the joke was and while, sure, it might have been inappropriate so are a lot of other jokes in a roast environment and many that are far worse than making fun of alopecia which btw Chris Rock never mentioned specifically. It's a raunchy comedian doing an act, If you choose to show up for the event, you're fair game unless it's a completely crossed the line joke like making fun of somebody having cancer or something like that.

Take it from somebody who suffered hair loss at a relatively young age, started in my late 20s. It's not an easy thing to deal with mentally, I tried all sorts of treatments, creams etc. (never thought about transplants though), I even sprinkled this hair fiber on to cover up the bald spots for several years for some insane reason all while feeling insecure about if anybody noticed.
I decided about 5 years ago to shave it down to a zero and I've been told by a lot of folks that know me well that I look much better this way (luckily I have the right shaped head to pull it off to go along with an athletic build and beard and moustache stubble) so long story short, I made such a big deal for years over something that turned out to be trivial at the end of the day. In other words, I get why Jada feels insecure about it but what a massive overreaction by Will Smith and then that cringefest of a speech talking about "I have to be a defender of my family". Over what? A harmless, weak joke? I generally like Will Smith's work, loved Fresh Price, but gain some perspective buddy.
 

Stoneman89

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Feb 8, 2008
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Will had a choice. Either slap Chris Rock up the side of the head, or come back and face a bitch beating by Jada. after the show.

BTW, anyone know if Jada has spoken out about what happened - one way or the other?
 

ZJuice

pickle juice connoisseur
May 17, 2010
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Will had a choice. Either slap Chris Rock up the side of the head, or come back and face a bitch beating by Jada. after the show.

BTW, anyone know if Jada has spoken out about what happened - one way or the other?
“This is a season for healing and I’m here for it.” - Jada

 

LaGu

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Exactly right. Some people are talking about how horrible and inappropriate the joke was and while, sure, it might have been inappropriate so are a lot of other jokes in a roast environment and many that are far worse than making fun of alopecia which btw Chris Rock never mentioned specifically. It's a raunchy comedian doing an act, If you choose to show up for the event, you're fair game unless it's a completely crossed the line joke like making fun of somebody having cancer or something like that.

Take it from somebody who suffered hair loss at a relatively young age, started in my late 20s. It's not an easy thing to deal with mentally, I tried all sorts of treatments, creams etc. (never thought about transplants though), I even sprinkled this hair fiber on to cover up the bald spots for several years for some insane reason all while feeling insecure about if anybody noticed.
I decided about 5 years ago to shave it down to a zero and I've been told by a lot of folks that know me well that I look much better this way (luckily I have the right shaped head to pull it off to go along with an athletic build and beard and moustache stubble) so long story short, I made such a big deal for years over something that turned out to be trivial at the end of the day. In other words, I get why Jada feels insecure about it but what a massive overreaction by Will Smith and then that cringefest of a speech talking about "I have to be a defender of my family". Over what? A harmless, weak joke? I generally like Will Smith's work, loved Fresh Price, but gain some perspective buddy.
I hear what you are saying, but trust me the experience of a 14 year old girl is not something you just deal with, for them it is like cancer. Because at that age they are invincible.

I feel like I am arguing for the guy in the wrong here, but at the end of the day I am saying that a person over-reacting over a mean insult against his wife is nothing to rage against.
 

Drivesaitl

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A close family member of mine has it, and she is also very relaxed about it now. However, she suffered very much in the beginning, both from what caused it (trauma) and from not knowing what was going on. It was very tough as a teenager and took years to get to the state you are talking about. Even now, she would say that she is allowed to make fun of it, so laugh with me, but don't laugh at me, so big no to others thinking it is ok making fun of her looks. I think you are taking the opposite pole of the crazy twitter folks on this one, while it is probably much more in the middle (also depending on the person). Life threatening, debilitating, you are of course right on that. Stigma, there I think you are off. Insurmountable, depends on what you mean by that, you can sourmount it by acceptning it and learning to live with it as the people you and I know. But the hair is not coming back, my family member will live her life bald or with a wig (normally puts in on when she gets tired of always getting asked about it), and with painted eyebrows.

In any case, I don't even think it is about the condition itself, it is just stupid to make jokes about or commenting on women's looks. Disregarding the condition, if she had put on weight and he'd do one about her being fat, I could see that provoking the same reaction. The reaction would still be wrong, and the joke would still be stupid. Will Smith is of course in the wrong, and he has (and probably will again) apologize for this. Chris Rock made a stupid joke.
Theres stigma if the person wants to self attach that this is something that reflects on who they are as a person. I think the "facebook" universe we're living in puts far too much premium on what people look like rather than what they are like. If anybody doesn't accept you or are mean to you because you have any affliction they're probably asshats that are not worth knowing or interacting with. That said if the individual themselves, somehow believes that they are less or a person because of something like Alopecia then that is unfortunate, and I would recommend therapy for that.

I have several existing conditions that are potentially limiting, even life threatening, I persevere, I wake up each day being thankful for life. I'll keep soldering on until I die. Just what I'm like. I had hair loss at 25 in the form of premature male pattern baldness. Myself I didn't give a toss about it. Just that other people, some, wanted me to have hair. Again I think people put far too much priority on looks and symbolic of our vacuous propping up of the insignificant, superficial, and mundane. We're talking about hair. A dead end evolutionary vestige that serves no present purpose.

When I was young the most beautiful person to me was Gandhi. Was he attractive? I don't know. His inner person was and spoke to me. (not literally) he may even have had alopecia.. Oh no, I'm joking about the condition. .

cheers
 
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LaGu

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It’s a stupid joke … made in a room full of some of the most stupid, vapid, self centered people on the planet. But honestly, it really wasn’t much on the scale of insults. We’ve all seen much worse at shows like this. Ricky Gervais anyone? We’ve also seen people a lot more important than Will Smith ( like presidents Obama and Trump to name a couple) sit there and take worse shots than ‘looking forward to seeing you in GI Jane’. It’s pretty tame tbh.

My take is right in line with what @Drivesaitl and @Roof Daddy posted up line. Smith crossed the line, not Rock. You have a problem with what he said? Great. Take it up with him after the show. Make him write a little apology on twitter or something. Don’t storm the stage, slap someone and then scream profanities on live TV. Smith made a complete ass of himself. Chris Rock handled the tantrum about as well as he could have. Good for him.
Rock crossed the line, Smith crossed it as well. If we’re doing one against the other Smith is worse off.

Rock made a bully-joke, mean and not funny. Gervais is another level, I’ve never seen him do such a bad and inappropriate joke though, he knows where to hit because he studies (pretending not to). But making fun of someone’s wife’s looks in front of them, due to a disease, haven’t seen it. Humour is subjective though, so of course we probably have a different point of view on that.
 

Drivesaitl

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I hear what you are saying, but trust me the experience of a 14 year old girl is not something you just deal with, for them it is like cancer. Because at that age they are invincible.

I feel like I am arguing for the guy in the wrong here, but at the end of the day I am saying that a person over-reacting over a mean insult against his wife is nothing to rage against.
What would the child WITH terminal cancer feel about somebody equating non life theatening Alopecia, with severe or advanced cancer? That statement actually concerns me. Sorry, but on this comment get a grip. Its offensive to equivocate in such manner.

It isn't helpful either for anybody to be feeling that Alopecia is debilitating, or as harmful as cancer. I could say in fact such internal dialog or feedback to a patient is severely harmful for the person with the condition. Whereby the perception of limitation becomes potentially greater than the actual physiological limitation.

When you make a statement like the bolded it should occur that your stance is untenable, and getting worse.
 
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LaGu

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Theres stigma if the person wants to self attach that this is something that reflects on who they are as a person. I think the "facebook" universe we're living in puts far too much premium on what people look like rather than what they are like. If anybody doesn't accept you or are mean to you because you have any affliction they're probably asshats that are not worth knowing or interacting with. That said if the individual themselves, somehow believes that they are less or a person because of something like Alopecia then that is unfortunate, and I would recommend therapy for that.

I have several existing conditions that are potentially limiting, even life threatening, I persevere, I wake up each day being thankful for life. I'll keep soldering on until I die. Just what I'm like. I had hair loss at 25 in the form of premature male pattern baldness. Myself I didn't give a toss about it. Just that other people, some, wanted me to have hair. Again I think people put far too much priority on looks and symbolic of our vacuous propping up of the insignificant, superficial, and mundane.

When I was young the most beautiful person to me was Gandhi. Was he attractive? I don't know. His inner person was and spoke to me. (not literally) he may even have had alopecia.. Oh no, I'm joking about the condition. .

cheers
There is stigma for a woman losing her hair, teenager even worse. I think that is an objective fact, there definitely are exceptions though, which is good. My family friend is pre-Facebook-era so that is not really the issue.

People not accepting you is one thing, you are talking about people knowing you. The reality is that there they are getting looked at by most everyone that does not know them. The others as you say will be filtered out, because they’re idiots.

I think I’ll stop in any case, I am taking for a family member who would explain this 100 times better herself. It’s not easy, it is not just about shaving your head and get done with it. We already know that women suffer much more than men suffering the same disease. Does that make sense? For me no, but it is a fact, even if we don’t agree.

That is how they live their lives later, also remember that trauma is the cause of this, and that stays connected to the state they live in. The “why” is often right there in front of them, loss, trauma, other issues. Those remain, my niece knows why it happened, and even though she lives with it and is on a good path to a great career, that remains. The reason and reminder is the trauma.
 
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LaGu

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Sorry, on my phone and sleeping, si hope my message made sense ! Cheers and see you tomorrow!
 

LaGu

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What would the child WITH terminal cancer feel about somebody equating non life theatening Alopecia, with severe or advanced cancer? That statement actually concerns me. Sorry, but on this comment get a grip. Its offensive to equivocate in such manner.

It isn't helpful either for anybody to be feeling that Alopecia is debilitating, or as harmful as cancer. I could say in fact such internal dialog or feedback to a patient is severely harmful for the person with the condition. Whereby the perception of limitation becomes potentially greater than the actual physiological limitation.

When you make a statement like the bolded it should occur that your stance is untenable, and getting worse.
We are not pitching one thing against another, you brought the cancer reference in there, not me. This is not a race, and scores of cancer patients these days are treated and get back to their lives. I did not mean to equate this to terminal cancer. That should be very clear from my first reply, which you read and replied to.

I think you know what I was referring to, the stigma that comes with a teenager loosing all her hair and not knowing why. And the trauma attached to it.

Just because something is not deadly does not mean it is trivial.
 

Drivesaitl

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We are not pitching one thing against another, you brought the cancer reference in there, not me. This is not a race, and scores of cancer patients these days are treated and get back to their lives. I did not mean to equate this to terminal cancer. That should be very clear from my first reply, which you read and replied to.

I think you know what I was referring to, the stigma that comes with a teenager loosing all her hair and not knowing why. And the trauma attached to it.

Just because something is not deadly does not mean it is trivial.
I never initiated the mention of Cancer. You did. Please stop.

Do you have any idea how ignorant those comments can be to people who have had several loved ones die of Cancer? Equivocation of the kind that you referenced in your statement disrespects the untold pain and suffering of the worst disease impacting mankind.
 

LaGu

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I never initiated the mention of Cancer. You did. Please stop.

Do you have any idea how ignorant those comments can be to people who have had several loved ones die of Cancer? Equivocation of the kind that you referenced in your statement disrespects the untold pain and suffering of the worst disease impacting mankind.
I held my mother’s hand and gave as much comfort as could when she died from liver cancer when she was 55 years old, so yes, I know how it feels. My most love one died, holding my hand.

Let’s take things back a step, for me you brought it up by mentioning Ben Stelter. Maybe I misunderstood your point, Ben’s a hero of our days. No doubt about that. I am and was talking about the stigma of alopecia. I am not sure what the point is of putting that against another disease in this case.

Edit: I am just reasoning, in a situation that is not black and white. At least not in my opinion. Cancer is not always cancer as we think of it, and I was talking about one’s own perception (as teenager in my case).
 
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Drivesaitl

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I held my mother’s hand and gave as much comfort as could when she died from liver cancer when she was 55 years old, so yes, I know how it feels. My most love one died, holding my hand.

Let’s take things back a step, for me you brought it up by mentioning Ben Stelter. Maybe I misunderstood your point, Ben’s a hero of our days. No doubt about that. I am and was talking about the stigma of alopecia. I am not sure what the point is of putting that against another disease in this case.

Edit: I am just reasoning, in a situation that is not black and white. At least not in my opinion. Cancer is not always cancer as we think of it, and I was talking about one’s own perception (as teenager in my case).
I only mentioned Stelter to provide context of a condition and disease that is actually serious. That was in the spirt of providing some perspective. I had not mentioned Cancer specifically.

You were doing the opposite, and diminishing the perspective. Yes Cancer is serious and often life threatening. Alopecia isn't. As if I should need to make the distinction again.

Going further I come from an era where people were told to just keep on moving on. That unless you had a condition that was serious keep going on with your life and don't feel sorry for yourself. Which actually is a healthy message. It becomes unhealthy when people make minor conditions seem as if they are insurmountable. That is actually damaging and self limiting.

Anyway moving on.
 
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ZJuice

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Now for something really weird with regards to the Smith/Rock situation:


Noticed that, they built a school that teaches Scientology in it. Secret Scientologists!

AD99F5CF-2F5D-4251-BED9-6A5D8AB18C5D.jpeg
 

Drivesaitl

Finding Hemingway
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Islands in the stream.
The sidebar is funny. Ohh Scientology...

But essentially anger did Will Smith in, and features prominently as an overriding emotion in pretty much any humans absolute worst moments. With some people going much farther in that anger, and others having more control over it. I mean this wasn't even a crime of passion. Chris Rock boning the wife would probably be a reason to get angry. For most males that is the scene where even normative males that have control in any other aspect in life can become unhinged. This was just somebody saying some words on stage and some Will Smith RAGING.

Last comment, that narratively somebody saying "Shut up, shup up your mouth, shut up putting my wifes name in your mouth" is reverting to infantile rage of the type that would be seen on school fields. When that kind of verbiage occurs, and if you witness this in someone you know they have COMPLETELY regressed to a primitive stage and that anything is on and that the person is possibly an anger based control freak. Screaming shut up is usually quite indicative of that. It is part of a checklist in assessments.
 

nabob

We Love Eu-Gene!!
Aug 3, 2005
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I never initiated the mention of Cancer. You did. Please stop.

Do you have any idea how ignorant those comments can be to people who have had several loved ones die of Cancer? Equivocation of the kind that you referenced in your statement disrespects the untold pain and suffering of the worst disease impacting mankind.
I would take my being bald by 30 over the cancer that took my father last year 100 times out of 100. I agree fully with your take that people who try to gain sympathy for a rather minor condition by comparing it to one of the greatest killers known to man is a horrible thing to do.


There is a whole other angle of this that gets me but that’s probably my male privilege being offended that mentioning anything about a woman’s looks is completely off limits…but if you want to mock a guy for being short, overweight, bald, pasty skinned, a red head, etc…then it’s open season and everyone will jump in for a good time.
 
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LaGu

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I only mentioned Stelter to provide context of a condition and disease that is actually serious. That was in the spirt of providing some perspective. I had not mentioned Cancer specifically.

You were doing the opposite, and diminishing the perspective. Yes Cancer is serious and often life threatening. Alopecia isn't. As if I should need to make the distinction again.

Going further I come from an era where people were told to just keep on moving on. That unless you had a condition that was serious keep going on with your life and don't feel sorry for yourself. Which actually is a healthy message. It becomes unhealthy when people make minor conditions seem as if they are insurmountable. That is actually damaging and self limiting.

Anyway moving on.
I think that in the very first post I did on this I said that "regardless of condition", specifically because I don't think it is the most important factor in all of this.

In any case, essentially we have one big disagreement, which I doubt we will resolve. I read your position as if alocepia is something that a person should just move on from and that it is not a big deal, I disagree. I base that from the experience of having a family member that has is and from reading up on it because of that. There is no disagreement on that the condition of someone like Stelter is on a whole other level.

What I am trying to say is that the point of all this is not to pitch one thing against the other, because that shouldn't matter. Also because there is a long list of things in between suffering from potentially terminal cancer and not suffering from anything. We'd have to go down that list and find where the cut-off point is, which would be a subjective based on who you are.

Can you make a bald joke about a man that not suffering from a condition but just lost his hair?
Can you make a bald joke about a woman that not suffering from a condition but just lost his hair?
Can you make a bald joke about a woman losing her hair due to a disease?
Can you make a bald joke about a person suffering from non-terminal cancer, but is going though chemotherapy to reduce a tumor before removing it?
Finally, can you make that joke about a person suffering from potentially terminal cancer?

Whatever your answer is to any of those, would anyone of these merit a slap in the face? I would say no, so as I said Smith is in the wrong here, doesn't mean that I don't think joking about it isn't mean and stupid. That was and is my whole point in all of this, but I probably did not express it very well. I very much respect your opinion and like to discuss with you. I did not mean for the discussion to take a bad turn, so I will move on as well.
 
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