OT: OT: Lets Go Cardinals! (All Baseball Talk Here) Part 2

[Linkens Mastery]

Could be something?

Doubtful

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

Doubtful

You’re probably right, just figured the Taguchi connection was interesting

 

[TheDizee]

So Taguchi was a great role player and a fantastic reliable defender. Miss that guy.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

I think we're getting Contreras.

 

[542365]

I’m confused why Mo is talking as if our starting rotation is set. If we bring back Quintana then I’d say we have an okay rotation with some huge question marks, which is exactly how we were last year until the deadline.

Waino is Waino, but Father Time will always win.

Flaherty is a walking injury. How can you be certain you’re going to get anything out of him?

Mikolas was good last year, poor and injured the year before, mediocre the year before that. Mixed results are a concern.

Hudson is replacement level.

Montgomery was great for the Cards but has been mediocre his entire career before that. Similar to Mikolas in that I think he’ll do well, but I wouldn’t be shocked if the wheels fell off either.

Matz was injured and ineffective. Hardly a sure thing.

Then it’s a bunch of young guys with mixed or no results in the majors. Without Quintana that is not a good rotation. With him it’s alright with some serious question marks. I’d much rather see the Cards spend on pitching, both starters and relievers, than a shortstop.

 

[Allens Five Hole]

But the thing is we are competing against many other teams for him. It will take an overpay from our end. I mean Cleveland can offer 1 of Valera/Williams/Bibee who will be ranked around the 20-40 range similar to when Gorman was a prospect. Tampa is in the hunt and they can offer similar prospects to Gorman. I also don't have much faith at all in Liberatore. His fastball sucks and is his worst pitch and he had a era of 5 in Triple A and in the Majors. He will have to totally revamp his fastball for him to become a starting pitcher unless he can pitch like Max Fried and reverse pitch his way through a game. It will take at least 2 top 100 prospects for him minimum

I totally agree with you on Liberatore and I would much rather keep Graceffo. I just don't see Sean Murphy requiring 3 top 100 prospects+. If that is his price tag then I am all in on signing Contreras.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I kind of wonder if Contreras and Quintana are a package deal. Quintana is probably interested in coming back since he did so well here, but if we sign Contreras, I'm almost expecting Quintana to sign a pretty friendly deal to return. We already know the 2 have talked about the Cardinals, Quintana saying it would be a good fit for Contreras.

Nevermind.

 

[Daley Tarasenkshow]

I’m confused why Mo is talking as if our starting rotation is set. If we bring back Quintana then I’d say we have an okay rotation with some huge question marks, which is exactly how we were last year until the deadline.

Waino is Waino, but Father Time will always win.

Flaherty is a walking injury. How can you be certain you’re going to get anything out of him?

Mikolas was good last year, poor and injured the year before, mediocre the year before that. Mixed results are a concern.

Hudson is replacement level.

Montgomery was great for the Cards but has been mediocre his entire career before that. Similar to Mikolas in that I think he’ll do well, but I wouldn’t be shocked if the wheels fell off either.

Matz was injured and ineffective. Hardly a sure thing.

Then it’s a bunch of young guys with mixed or no results in the majors. Without Quintana that is not a good rotation. With him it’s alright with some serious question marks. I’d much rather see the Cards spend on pitching, both starters and relievers, than a shortstop.

For whatever reason the Cardinals (and Mo) have always emphasized the offseason for hitting and position player reinforcements as opposed to pitching. I think it has something to do with the thought that a pitcher can always be acquired in-season (like Montgomery, Quintana, Happ, Lester, etc) dating back a couple years. Maybe it's the analytics saying something to Mo in that regard but I agree with the notion that I'd like the Cardinals to add a SP. Even if Quintana is brought back, there's little depth after that, and that's a concern with the injury histories of the pitchers.

 

[PJJJP]

Quintana to the Mets. 2 years-26 Million

 

[Allens Five Hole]

I’m confused why Mo is talking as if our starting rotation is set. If we bring back Quintana then I’d say we have an okay rotation with some huge question marks, which is exactly how we were last year until the deadline.

Waino is Waino, but Father Time will always win.

Flaherty is a walking injury. How can you be certain you’re going to get anything out of him?

Mikolas was good last year, poor and injured the year before, mediocre the year before that. Mixed results are a concern.

Hudson is replacement level.

Montgomery was great for the Cards but has been mediocre his entire career before that. Similar to Mikolas in that I think he’ll do well, but I wouldn’t be shocked if the wheels fell off either.

Matz was injured and ineffective. Hardly a sure thing.

Then it’s a bunch of young guys with mixed or no results in the majors. Without Quintana that is not a good rotation. With him it’s alright with some serious question marks. I’d much rather see the Cards spend on pitching, both starters and relievers, than a shortstop.

This is what separates our squad from the real contenders, IMO. Every other team that has World Series aspirations has at least 2 legitimate aces.

Mets (Scherzer, Verlander)
Dodgers (Urias, Kershaw, May?)
Braves (Fried, Strider, Wright, Morton?)
Phillies (Wheeler, Nola)
Padres (Darvish, Musgrove, Snell?)
Brewers (Woodruff, Burnes, Peralta?)

Yankees (Cole, Cortes, Severino? Montas?)
Astros (Valdez, Javier, Garcia, McCullers?)
Blue Jays (Manoah, Gausman, Berrios?)
Mariners (Ray, Castillo, Gilbert, Kirby?)
Indians (Bieber, McKenzie)

Could be missing some and the question marks are guys who I think have shown previously or have upside to be a legitimate ace. Compare that to our rotation.

And as I type this, Quintana is a Met.

 

[PJJJP]

This is what separates our squad from the real contenders, IMO. Every other team that has World Series aspirations has at least 2 legitimate aces.

Mets (Scherzer, Verlander)
Dodgers (Urias, Kershaw, May?)
Braves (Fried, Strider, Wright, Morton?)
Phillies (Wheeler, Nola)
Padres (Darvish, Musgrove, Snell?)
Brewers (Woodruff, Burnes, Peralta?)

Yankees (Cole, Cortes, Severino? Montas?)
Astros (Valdez, Javier, Garcia, McCullers?)
Blue Jays (Manoah, Gausman, Berrios?)
Mariners (Ray, Castillo, Gilbert, Kirby?)
Indians (Bieber, McKenzie)

Could be missing some and the question marks are guys who I think have shown previously or have upside to be a legitimate ace. Compare that to our rotation.

And as I type this, Quintana is a Met.

Yep this. I don't think we can win Postseason series if we don't have ace-like pitchers. Having those types of pitchers takes so much pressure off the offense. We had two prospects that had this potential but Reyes was always injured and Flaherty had 1 good season and hasn't been healthy. Ironically Alcantara and Gallen have been doing well the last 2 years. I don't know where we are going to find these pitchers but we need them. The closest prospect we have to a number 1 is Hence and he is far away and is not guaranteed at all. Flaherty is our only realistic chance right now outside of signing Rodon. Our pitching development has taken a big dive the last 4-5 years

 

[Linkens Mastery]

If the Cards get Murphy/Toronto 3 they'll sign a pitcher. If they sign Contreras they'll trade for one.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

 

[bleedblue1223]

Yep, sounds like Murphy was too expensive, so we are going for Contreras. I think that's fine, we probably miss out on a SS, but maybe we can find a decent OF or SP in free agency/trade.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Yep, sounds like Murphy was too expensive, so we are going for Contreras. I think that's fine, we probably miss out no a SS, but maybe we can find a decent OF or SP in free agency/trade.

Didn't help that the A's look to have changed their asking price in the middle of negotiations either.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

They’re gonna sign Contreras and act like they won the off-season aren’t they?

I’m fine with pivoting to him if the price for Murphy was ludicrous. But I don’t understand letting Quintana walk for 26 over 2. That should have been a no brainer.

 

[bleedblue1223]

They’re gonna sign Contreras and act like they won the off-season aren’t they?

I’m fine with pivoting to him if the price for Murphy was ludicrous. But I don’t understand letting Quintana walk for 26 over 2. That should have been a no brainer.

Yeah, we definitely need something else. I think the problem with SP, we need an upgrade, but we already have a bunch of bodies. Waino, Mikolas, Montgomery, Matz, Flaherty, and technically some others. It's a rotation that needs a clear upgrade since there is no ace, Flaherty and Matz we probably can't count on, Matz should be better though. Montgomery should be solid, but unspectacular. And we are probably playing with fire with Waino and Mikolas due to their age. And not many of them are signed long-term.

Even if it's not Rodon, there is still Bassitt and Senga that would give us an upgrade. And maybe a trade, but if we actually want to compete, we need another front of the rotation starter.

 

[BrokenFace]

What are the chances the Cards have a lower payroll going into next season than they did at the end of last season?

 

[bleedblue1223]

What are the chances the Cards have a lower payroll going into next season than they did at the end of last season?

0.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Contreras 5 year deal. Allows for Herrera to continue to progress. When Herrera is ready Contreras and move to DH.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

17.5 per year. I would be very interested to find out the trade demands from the As for Murphy

 

[Allens Five Hole]

5 years 87.5 mil seems fairly team friendly, no?

Edit: Slots in 4th behind Grandal on AAV. With DH in NL now, that deal seems decent to me.

 

[TheDizee]

None of this matters as long as Dejong is still on the roster.

 

[BrokenFace]

0.

Just know that my Cardinals free agency pessimism has not been eradicated, but merely delayed.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I'm fine with this deal, could sort of see it finishing like Fowler's, but not getting as bad as quick. If Herrera actually develops, that's a nice transition since we have the DH. Herrera could just be another Knizner though.