Opinion: Jonas Siegel and James Mirtle are a couple of Jellyfish.

[myleafs]

Yes.

And especially true if half of that four disappear when the going gets tough.

and if that 4 are all soft passive forwards

 

[myleafs]

Ehh. Florida is paying nearly as much for Bob, Tkachuk, Barkov, and Ekblad .. and no one seems to be making an issue of that. But that's because Bob and Tkachuk are playing like they're being paid right now in the playoffs.

Had any of the core players have done that in their playoff performances, there would be more success that followed.

Problem is the Leafs hitched their wagon to the wrong core players .. and Dubas' continually gambling on them was his downfall.

A goalie, dman, centerman, winger instead of 2 wingers and 2 centres seems a better way to spend $ and to balance a roster.

 

[Stephen]

Well I agree but the post I was quoting inferred you can’t tie your cap up in 4 players.. which isn’t always true as long as they are the right players

Yep, and covering different key positions.

 

[Kiwi]

I listen to there podcast, I know those two are pretty pro Dubas, analytics and the Athletic is a progressive publication generally as is it's readership

I don't always agree with them but it's information from a sometimes differing opinion which makes it worth listening to imo

 

[nuck]

I see a lot of off ramps from where we could have ended up somewhere different but obviously not A, B, C action plan without knowing what was available to Toronto.

Tavares is definitely the Big One. If he hadn't signed at $11 million per season, maybe the Big 3 contracts wouldn't have escalated the way they did. You could have saved $3 million on Matthews and Marner combined, so $14 million in roster flexibility between 2018 and now.

Second is they should have been more proactive in moving UFAs like Gardiner and Andersen. It was a very passive "own rental" policy instead of looking around at the league and plugging in alternatives before your guys left for nothing.

The Kadri deal to Colorado was obviously awful.

And then just all the little heads up moves other teams made during this era that Toronto could have plausibly done if they had the cap flexibility. Trading 2 2nd's for Devon Toews, re-signing Verhaeghe instead of passing over a few hundred k. Maybe let time run out on Marleau, and still have the Jarvis pick. It all adds up to a healthier franchise with more depth.

I am pretty sure Kyle just got mugged by the agents for the Big 3. I don't know that JT was even a factor. Willie was looking at Drai, Mitch was dreaming of AM money because he was outscoring him, and AM was looking at McDavid. A new GM with zero experience at high end contracts is fresh meat to them. He wants to be friends with his boys, make them part of the Leaf family' and the agents just want to bleed him white. Having a good relationship with the player doesn't help much when they pretend its their agent doing the squeeze and not them.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

A goalie, dman, centerman, winger instead of 2 wingers and 2 centres seems a better way to spend $ and to balance a roster.

Agreed.

And they’re going to the finals.

I am pretty sure Kyle just got mugged by the agents for the Big 3. I don't know that JT was even a factor. Willie was looking at Drai, Mitch was dreaming of AM money because he was outscoring him, and AM was looking at McDavid. A new GM with zero experience at high end contracts is fresh meat to them. He wants to be friends with his boys, make them part of the Leaf family' and the agents just want to bleed him white. Having a good relationship with the player doesn't help much when they pretend its their agent doing the squeeze and not them.

You would have thought with Dubas being such a supposedly “nice guy” that perhaps they might have taken a home town discount.

Guess it doesn’t work that way, of at least didn’t here.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

They were probably being greased behind the scenes. I don't know for a fact but it sure seems like there was shady business going on and it was larger in scope then has been suggested thus far.

It looks like Dubas took the high road on an official basis and then got some of his friends in the media to sling the mud for him. Don’t know that for a fact, but it kinda smells that way.

Teams looking at him, should take note of the damage he is doing to an organization that gave him his start in the NHL as he’s heading out the door.

 

[Stephen]

Agreed.

And they’re going to the finals.


You would have thought with Dubas being such a supposedly “nice guy” that perhaps they might have taken a home town discount.

Guess it doesn’t work that way, of at least didn’t here.

Kyle probably got it in his head that he's one of the Core Players.

 

[Stephen]

It looks like Dubas took the high road on an official basis and then got some of his friends in the media to sling the mud for him. Don’t know that for a fact, but it kinda smells that way.

Teams looking at him, should take note of the damage he is doing to an organization that gave him his start in the NHL as he’s heading out the door.

If Dubas goes to Pittsburgh I'm thinking the Penguins start becoming a big topic for The Athletic.

 

[nuck]

Agreed.

And they’re going to the finals.


You would have thought with Dubas being such a supposedly “nice guy” that perhaps they might have taken a home town discount.

Guess it doesn’t work that way, of at least didn’t here.

These guys were kids, being led by their parents and the agents who just want to get them what they are worth. Its not the zoomer kids, its the parents. The club didn't need a discount, just market value.

 

[al secord]

Born a moron, you die a moron

Having Dreger and "Noodles " in my corner would make me reassess my whole thought process.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Whoever came up with the genius idea of spending half your cap on four players is to blame for everything, those who agreed with the idea are just as much to blame………

It's not just that it's four players, it's that it's THESE four players, guys that often don't raise the bar when it needs to be raised the most, that makes it truly horrid.

 

[Squiffy]

So just another Dubas thread now lol... not so much about the perceived media representation of the facts of the matter anymore.

Stick a knife in it, we have this thread *3

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

If Dubas goes to Pittsburgh I'm thinking the Penguins start becoming a big topic for The Athletic.

No doubt!

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

So just another Dubas thread now lol... not so much about the perceived media representation of the facts of the matter anymore.

Stick a knife in it, we have this thread *3

Before Dubas got canned, many on this site along with Siegel and Mirtle made Dubas out to be an incredible and almost un-replaceable GM. Run it back forever, the Leafs are right on the verge of hoisting the cup was their argument.

Now their narrative has changed and it’s that Dubas didn’t have success because Shanahan and MLSE ownership meddled.

So which argument is correct?

Dubas is awesome?

Or he sucked, but it’s someone else’s fault?

 

[Squiffy]

Before Dubas got canned, many on this site along with Siegal and Mirtle made Dubas out to be an incredible and almost un-replaceable GM. Run it back forever, the Leafs are right on the verge of hoisting the cup was their argument.

Now their narrative has changed and it’s that Dubas didn’t have success because Shanahan and MLSE ownership meddled.

So which argument is correct?

Dubas is awesome?

Or he sucked, but it’s someone else’s fault?

There we go, that's back on topic a bit.

Only point is we don't need another Dubas good/bad thread, and this one is there today.

Media representation of situation, that's a different thread and hey, have at 'er.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

There we go, that's back on topic a bit.

Only point is we don't need another Dubas good/bad thread, and this one is there today.

Media representation of situation, that's a different thread and hey, have at 'er.

The truth is probably that he was neither.

He didn’t suck and he wasn’t awesome. He was a average GM that got very average overall results.

Why some here and in the media made him out to be some new age prophet is beyond me. It seems like he represented a particular generation age wise, mixed in with a bit of progressive politics.

 

[Squiffy]

The truth is probably that he was neither.

He didn’t suck and he wasn’t awesome. He was a average GM that got very average overall results.

Why some here and in the media made him out to be some new age prophet is beyond me. It seems like he represented a particular generation age wise, mixed in with a bit of progressive politics.

Here, I can't speak to, haven't been around to this level for years. Fun diving back in. Really bad for productivity lol..

So I'll tackle it from the more casual all-in bonkers fan level, I am surprised at both the level of hate and level of love of Dubas. I agree, he was ok. I'd say he tried to take a go at sort of a new theory, it's failed in the playoffs, had a good look at it, now move on. Don't think the team is a lost cause.

The media though.. mostly getting the same. I guess if you are in the fishbowl invested in your opinion then.. on a macro level you get what we are seeing here on HF. Mostly they seem to just be trying to sort through the facts, you get these couple of outliers that leave you thinking, "Jesus that's kinda dumb", just toss it on the garbage heap.

 

[DarkKnight]

Before Dubas got canned, many on this site along with Siegel and Mirtle made Dubas out to be an incredible and almost un-replaceable GM. Run it back forever, the Leafs are right on the verge of hoisting the cup was their argument.

Now their narrative has changed and it’s that Dubas didn’t have success because Shanahan and MLSE ownership meddled.

So which argument is correct?

Dubas is awesome?

Or he sucked, but it’s someone else’s fault?

Yes, so all those great trades you said he made last week, was it him or was it Shanny interfering and making the great deals? The intellectual pretzels are hilarious. He did such an amazing job, but really it was Shanny. Too funny.

 

[Boxscore]

Ehh. Florida is paying nearly as much for Bob, Tkachuk, Barkov, and Ekblad .. and no one seems to be making an issue of that. But that's because Bob and Tkachuk are playing like they're being paid right now in the playoffs.

Had any of the core players have done that in their playoff performances, there would be more success that followed.

Problem is the Leafs hitched their wagon to the wrong core players .. and Dubas' continually gambling on them was his downfall.

This is all true but the Panthers core pieces provide significantly more balance, as did the Pens core (Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Fleury) and the Kings (Kopitar, Doughty, Brown, Quick). The Leafs have their money all tied up in 4 soft offensive players. The ironic thing is, with the Leafs core, you'd at least expect exciting 6-4 games in the playoffs but this core just can't come up big in the post season because they have no extra gear.

 

[leafs in five]

yeah because they had it easy while probably being overpaid as well lmao. I’d be mourning too if my free cake walk was over.

what does this even mean? is the Athletic TO shutting down or something? do we expect that these two guys who have covered the Leafs long before Dubas was GM will just now be unable to do so?

 

[leafs in five]

It's seriously weird being a Leafs fan right now.

no doubt

 

[TheRumble]

This thread is a really good example of the lack of media literacy in modern society. OP is basically saying because Mirtle and Siegel have opinions different than he does that they were a part of a secret media cabal to spread pro-Dubas propaganda.

James Mirtle was a beat writer for the Leafs long before he wrote for the Athletic. He started during the Kessel era when the team's management did things like:

- Mistakenly give Jeff Finger a contract meant for Kurt Sauer
- Had a GM that in 2014 did not know that you could retain salaries on trades (Nonis)
- Fired a GM 20 games into the 2013 season (allegedly) for not trading for Luongo (Burke)
- Had one of the most expensive analytic departments in the league that they never used because the team didn't believe in them.

He was famously one of the few Toronto area writers that were down on the Leafs in 2013 when they made the playoffs despite having terrible underlying numbers and would often get death threats for it. Around that time, guys like Simmons and Feshchuk were still parroting the "eye test" when neither of them ever wrote about systems play, still don't and their analysis on what happened in a game can be summed up as "Well they did/didn't want it bad enough."

There's a reason why Mirtle and Siegel are more pro-Dubas; it's because Kyle Dubas was the guy that rebuilt the entire Leafs development program and started managing them more like most modern sports execs.

 

[justashadowof]

This thread is a really good example of the lack of media literacy in modern society. OP is basically saying because Mirtle and Siegel have opinions different than he does that they were a part of a secret media cabal to spread pro-Dubas propaganda.

Could you be any more condescending: "lack of media literacy in modern society?" Media literacy is exact opposite of what you're implying. Media literacy is identifying the biases/agendas, catching the story framing, seeing the out right ignoring of other notable facts and events, recognizing the grandiosity of the individuals in the media, seeing when "the media" goes into full marketing campaign masquerading as news.

There's no secret cabal, no far out conspiracy, nothing of that sort. Certain media guys just believe very strongly in certain hockey (and life) ideologies. They're also of a certain age and background and they identify very strongly with someone like Kyle Dubas. They are not dispassionate reporters of the facts. They are spin doctors for a certain agenda and camp of thought where there are people they promote and protect and others they ignore.

 

[hullsy47]

A goalie, dman, centerman, winger instead of 2 wingers and 2 centres seems a better way to spend $ and to balance a roster.

Exactly spend money but get a goalie ffs