Opinion: Jonas Siegel and James Mirtle are a couple of Jellyfish.

[GoonieFace]

The only way to settle this is by me fighting Dubas, than we will see who the real deal is

 

[therealkoho]

Shanny may have something to say about that

Of course he would

So back in my working days I asked my boss once why he was always giving me things to do, always looking over my work, suggesting things and stuff like that.

It's because he said, "I'm the boss, and when you're the boss you can do it too!"

Somewhere along the way Dubas forgot that he had a boss, and that he wasn't the boss, and you actually have to listen to the boss and follow the bosses direction.

 

[WillTheThrill]

Of course he would

So back in my working days I asked my boss once why he was always giving me things to do, always looking over my work, suggesting things and stuff like that.

It's because he said, "I'm the boss, and when you're the boss you can do it too!"

Somewhere along the way Dubas forgot that he had a boss, and that he wasn't the boss, and you actually have to listen to the boss and follow the bosses direction.

Exactly. So Treliving will have his hands tied this summer, just as Dubas would have. Shanny has final say and if he wants to keep the core together then the core stays together.

 

[socko]

A peak back at the Mitch Marner contract negotiations...

Paul Marner: Kyle, we're not going to fight about this, okay?
Kyle Dubas: Paul, I think I told you, I'm a lover not a fighter.
Paul Marner: I've heard it all before, Kyle, Mitch told me that you never loved him. You love Matthews instead remember?
Kyle Dubas: Well, after me, Mitch said he couldn't love another. Here's a blank contract...
Paul Marner: I don't believe it. The Dubas is mine. The doggone Dubas is mine.

 

[nuck]

Of course he would

So back in my working days I asked my boss once why he was always giving me things to do, always looking over my work, suggesting things and stuff like that.

It's because he said, "I'm the boss, and when you're the boss you can do it too!"

Somewhere along the way Dubas forgot that he had a boss, and that he wasn't the boss, and you actually have to listen to the boss and follow the bosses direction.

I don't know if that's it. Dubas may have had his wings clipped a bit after the first few years when he failed to deliver enough. Maybe Shanny started off watching closely and then reneged on a promise to give Kyle more autonomy when he had been at the role longer.

Maybe he didn't necessarily want Shanny out of the loop on his decision making. It seems pretty odd for the GM to want to talk directly to the Board who are not a bunch of hockey minds and are only going to back to their guy Shanahan to advise them if it makes sense. We don't know precisely how "streamlining" was to work.

The amount Shanny was playing GM more than a typical Pres, if at all, isn't clear, because all GMs who aren't also Presidents have a finite level of authority (and the Presidents themselves for that matter). We just never talked about it before because the two were assumed to be hand in glove.

It was an odd separation but we have incomplete facts and "insiders" coming up with inside dirt but no actual details just muddy the water.

I believe there is every possibility if they hire a veteran GM he will have the autonomy to do his job. I would say not carte blanche because for the next 2 years Shanny's fate is in his hands but I think any President in that position would want a seat at the table.

 

[MCR74]

Jesus Christ... Mourning...

The team won a single playoff round in how many years now? Keep Dubas, and it'll be more of the same.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

It's seriously weird being a Leafs fan right now.

 

[Apex Predator]

I think that's fair.

But another tricky issue I think is thinking up an alternative path that the team could have taken.

Very few would have been open to trading Marner or Matthews so soon. Nylander likely had way less trade value as a 60-70 point player than he does now as a PPG 40 goal guy, so I don't see trading him much earlier as helping all that much.

In retrospect it likely would have been wise to avoid the Tavares signing. Yet, how many here were truthfully opposed to signing a top 10 centre (at the time) for nothing but capspace. The signing was overwhelmingly popular.

So imo I think it's fairly hard (though admittedly not impossible) to see an easy alternative path to how things unfolded

Perhaps the biggest "what if" is what if the Blue Jackets had ultimately accepted the trade back scenario for what would have been the Marner pick at the 2015 draft and the team ended up with a Werenski, or Rantanen + a bunch of other picks from that draft.

Maybe it starts with how he handled the Marleau situation. Basically one year later Johnson and Kapannen were traded. Maybe he holds onto Marleau and that first and trades one or two of those guys gets draft picks or dman around same age of Kappy and Johnson. We kept our first and maybe we’re looking at more cost controlled ELC to help build around core 4.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I think that's fair.

But another tricky issue I think is thinking up an alternative path that the team could have taken.

Very few would have been open to trading Marner or Matthews so soon. Nylander likely had way less trade value as a 60-70 point player than he does now as a PPG 40 goal guy, so I don't see trading him much earlier as helping all that much.

In retrospect it likely would have been wise to avoid the Tavares signing. Yet, how many here were truthfully opposed to signing a top 10 centre (at the time) for nothing but capspace. The signing was overwhelmingly popular.

So imo I think it's fairly hard (though admittedly not impossible) to see an easy alternative path to how things unfolded

Perhaps the biggest "what if" is what if the Blue Jackets had ultimately accepted the trade back scenario for what would have been the Marner pick at the 2015 draft and the team ended up with a Werenski, or Rantanen + a bunch of other picks from that draft.

I didn't watch a lot of Tavares before he became a leaf. Many were celebrating early when he signed. He did play really well in his first few seasons. I guess from the get-go Dubas felt like he was going to win using 2 top end centers as the foundation. I sort of felt it was hasty. Like many Cup champions don't always have 2 x 11 million dollar centers. Knowing that Matthews was going to immediately be a 1C was rather short-sighted for Dubas. I guess I should mention Kadri in this conversation. I never felt like Dubas won the Kadri trade. I sort of thought Barrie would be better, but he was a bust (not to mention a big-time defensive liability). I am happy for Kadri. I just wish that was us he played well for. That Tavares 11 million could have been used to round out the team a lot better. Especially knowing that Matthews would be future star.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

Exactly. So Treliving will have his hands tied this summer, just as Dubas would have. Shanny has final say and if he wants to keep the core together then the core stays together.

Ownership has the final say. Not Shanahan.

Shanahan Is essentially a liaison between MLSE and the GM. And I’m sure Shanahan is smart enough to know that it’s smart internal politics to not cross the board when they don’t approve what he recommends, which I would suggest is probably a rare occurrence anyway.

So as much as Dubas might have blamed Shanahan for nixing deals or changes, it could have been the board doing it, or, it simply could have been Shanahan knowing himself the board would not approve something.

The board is full of smart people and more than likely Shanahan meets with them once a year or so and they map out a general direction for the team for the coming season. After that, Shanahan probably has a good sense of what they will approve and disapprove of and to what level of moves require pre-approval.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

I didn't watch a lot of Tavares before he became a leaf. Many were celebrating early when he signed. He did play really well in his first few seasons. I guess from the get-go Dubas felt like he was going to win using 2 top end centers as the foundation. I sort of felt it was hasty. Like many Cup champions don't always have 2 x 11 million dollar centers. Knowing that Matthews was going to immediately be a 1C was rather short-sighted for Dubas. I guess I should mention Kadri in this conversation. I never felt like Dubas won the Kadri trade. I sort of thought Barrie would be better, but he was a bust (not to mention a big-time defensive liability). I am happy for Kadri. I just wish that was us he played well for. That Tavares 11 million could have been used to round out the team a lot better. Especially knowing that Matthews would be future star.

Signing Tavares wasn’t an issue onto itself. Trying to hold on to four offensively minded gifted forwards who’s salary take up over 40% of the salary cap allocation was and is the issue. It left Dubas with very little money to round out the roster with other important players.

He needed to trade one of Matthews, Marner or Nylander for other assets for the Tavares signing to work.

 

[FerrisRox]

Ehh. Florida is paying nearly as much for Bob, Tkachuk, Barkov, and Ekblad .. and no one seems to be making an issue of that.

Surely you can see an enormous difference, in terms of team construction, if you spend half of your cap on two forwards, a defensemen and a goaltender rather than four forwards.

The issue isn't so much tying up so much cap in so few players, it's that it leaves gaping holes when you have it allotted all to the same position.

 

[Menzinger]

Maybe it starts with how he handled the Marleau situation. Basically one year later Johnson and Kapannen were traded. Maybe he holds onto Marleau and that first and trades one or two of those guys gets draft picks or dman around same age of Kappy and Johnson. We kept our first and maybe we’re looking at more cost controlled ELC to help build around core 4.

Maybe.

I think it's definitely fair that the front office could/should have played the Marleau situation differently (ie like the Kapanen trade idea), though I'm not sure if it would radically change the current situation of the Leafs

 

[nuck]

Maybe it starts with how he handled the Marleau situation. Basically one year later Johnson and Kapannen were traded. Maybe he holds onto Marleau and that first and trades one or two of those guys gets draft picks or dman around same age of Kappy and Johnson. We kept our first and maybe we’re looking at more cost controlled ELC to help build around core 4.

A Nylander trade could have allowed the addition of Pietrangelo so Brodie-AP instead of Brody-Holl. Always lots of options in hindsight.

 

[Menzinger]

A Nylander trade could have allowed the addition of Pietrangelo so Brodie-AP instead of Brody-Holl. always lots of options in hindsight.

Though that assumes Pietro would have signed over Vegas

 

[Apex Predator]

Maybe.

I think it's definitely fair that the front office could/should have played the Marleau situation differently (ie like the Kapanen trade idea), though I'm not sure if it would radically change the current situation of the Leafs

It all depends who they got in return. Let’s say they turn Kappy into Shea Theodore(need a refresher anyone remmeber what his value was back during Marleau time) could change things today. Obviously hindsight is 20/20.

Edit: Did some research and Theodore might not be the best example as don’t think Vegas would consider trading him at that time for Kappy.

 

[nuck]

Though that assumes Pietro would have signed over Vegas

I think they would have had a pretty good shot. Heading home to family with your family vs sin city. His wife is from St Louis so no Vegas or desert connections. Still just a maybe but there are a list of these.
When I look at Kyle's do overs he would like from the first couple of years, there are many, but really the JT signing was the big one as it forced him into defensive mode with the cap and affected all other trade options. You are clearly a fan of his moves and must have wondered what he could do with an extra few million for the last 5 years. I imagine he has too.

 

[justashadowof]

I remember at the time of the Marleau contract dilemma posting something to the effect of "would you trade our 1st round pick in order to keep both Kapanen and Johnsson?" Totally my independent thought exercise at the time that the GM did in fact do later on. Then he still had to sell off Kapanen and Johnsson anyways next summer. If I'm in anyway to blame for that bad trade by seeding that justification in the GM's head, I sincerely apologize to all of Leafs' Nation including myself. I believed Johnsson was going to become a consistent 25-25 player, Kapanen was some Ron Ellis-ish two way speed demon and the cap was going to go up so we'd be able to retain the better of the two players at least.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

This is the thing that always gets my attention.

Dubas didn't draft any of the core of this team.
Dubas did sign Tavares, still a PPG player.
Dubas did leave Keefe in charge of the on-ice activities.

We can lay the blame completely at Dubas feet for the coach and Tavares.
Unless of course he wasn't permitted to fire Keefe? Hmmm?

We can blame Dubas for not trading Matthews, marner or Nylander.

Really, I have to say not firing Keefe was his undoing, unless analysis points to Matthews and marner being unable to handle pressure. Yes, they've lead the team in points most post seasons, but they've also gone two complete playoffs rounds where in each round they scored a total of 1 goal between them. I know this is beating a dead horse, but everyone knows it, but how can you place the blame on Dubas for Matthews and marner totaling 2 goals in 12 playoff games?

You can't.

Honestly, the total blame for that has to be shared by Keefe, Matthews and marner.

But the responsibility for that does rise to the top, Dubas and Shanahan.

Here is a question for everyone, if you knew marner and Matthews suffered from this stage fright, would you have encouraged trading them while they still had term?

In a heartbeat. I am a fan of the team first and don't really care about individual accomplishments that much and I think I probably speak for the vast majority of fans when I state that. I know MM has stage fright because he cares too much and in his home market it's debilitating. I think AM doesn't care enough TBH and either one going or both would be fine by me if it meant a team that we wouldn't have to dissect every spring and figure out why they lost again.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Dubas deserves a lot of heat for his earlier rosters when Matthews and Marner were taking over the reigns in 2019 and 2020 and the Leafs were doubling down on small, skill, speed.

How do you get beat up by the Washington Capitals and Boston Bruins in 2017 and 2018 and think the answer is to surround your young 21-22 year old core pieces with even smaller support guys while getting rid of that playoff sandpaper in Komarov, Martin, Polak? Dubas was trying to re-invent the wheel but didn't even have a grasp on playoff basics and the human factor of physical and emotional intimidation.

I think it's looking more and more like it was Shanny's doing when it comes to the smaller skill and speed. He was the guy pushing for relaxed rules during the lockout so smaller guys could play better. I think it was his ego getting in the way of this team being built traditionally from the ground up. He would have loved to win a cup and have other teams copy his vision. The more I think about it the more I think Dubas (while not doing a great job to begin with) was saddled by Shanny's vision and only after those early failures...was allowed to bring in some size. That doesn't excuse Dubas...but we will find out this season for sure when almost half of the team are UFA's and need to be replaced. Are we getting more Justin Holl's or McCabes?

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Maybe it starts with how he handled the Marleau situation. Basically one year later Johnson and Kapannen were traded. Maybe he holds onto Marleau and that first and trades one or two of those guys gets draft picks or dman around same age of Kappy and Johnson. We kept our first and maybe we’re looking at more cost controlled ELC to help build around core 4.

Considering both Kappy and Johnsson were busts and didn't even live up to their 2nd contract...it would have been magical if we had someone with your train of thought and did what you suggest. People keep forgetting that if you trade an asset that is pretty good..you get stuff back. If we traded any of the core 4...we would have something from those trades.

 

[Stephen]

I think that's fair.

But another tricky issue I think is thinking up an alternative path that the team could have taken.

Very few would have been open to trading Marner or Matthews so soon. Nylander likely had way less trade value as a 60-70 point player than he does now as a PPG 40 goal guy, so I don't see trading him much earlier as helping all that much.

In retrospect it likely would have been wise to avoid the Tavares signing. Yet, how many here were truthfully opposed to signing a top 10 centre (at the time) for nothing but capspace. The signing was overwhelmingly popular.

So imo I think it's fairly hard (though admittedly not impossible) to see an easy alternative path to how things unfolded

Perhaps the biggest "what if" is what if the Blue Jackets had ultimately accepted the trade back scenario for what would have been the Marner pick at the 2015 draft and the team ended up with a Werenski, or Rantanen + a bunch of other picks from that draft.

I see a lot of off ramps from where we could have ended up somewhere different but obviously not A, B, C action plan without knowing what was available to Toronto.

Tavares is definitely the Big One. If he hadn't signed at $11 million per season, maybe the Big 3 contracts wouldn't have escalated the way they did. You could have saved $3 million on Matthews and Marner combined, so $14 million in roster flexibility between 2018 and now.

Second is they should have been more proactive in moving UFAs like Gardiner and Andersen. It was a very passive "own rental" policy instead of looking around at the league and plugging in alternatives before your guys left for nothing.

The Kadri deal to Colorado was obviously awful.

And then just all the little heads up moves other teams made during this era that Toronto could have plausibly done if they had the cap flexibility. Trading 2 2nd's for Devon Toews, re-signing Verhaeghe instead of passing over a few hundred k. Maybe let time run out on Marleau, and still have the Jarvis pick. It all adds up to a healthier franchise with more depth.

 

[Stephen]

Considering both Kappy and Johnsson were busts and didn't even live up to their 2nd contract...it would have been magical if we had someone with your train of thought and did what you suggest. People keep forgetting that if you trade an asset that is pretty good..you get stuff back. If we traded any of the core 4...we would have something from those trades.

Yeah if they had moved off Johnsson and Kapanen one year earlier they could have just lived with Marleau.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Surely you can see an enormous difference, in terms of team construction, if you spend half of your cap on two forwards, a defensemen and a goaltender rather than four forwards.

The issue isn't so much tying up so much cap in so few players, it's that it leaves gaping holes when you have it allotted all to the same position.

Well I agree but the post I was quoting inferred you can’t tie your cap up in 4 players.. which isn’t always true as long as they are the right players

 

[thewave]

Clearly they are reeling from Dubas' dismissal, and clearly they are friends with KD. 2 weeks ago they were ok with Shanahan. Now they are distrusting of anything Shanny does/says.

Now Siegel is interviewing anonymous MLSE employees who worked with Dubas and are "in mourning". I'm sorry? They are mourning? Yeah. Dubas must have been a nice guy, but doesn't Siegel know what pro sports is like? Did the MLSE employees think that a team who wins 1 playoff round in 7 attempts isn't going to last?

I think this is petty stuff and I can't believe that Mirtle/Siegel can't handle this.

Perhaps they were too close to Dubas and perhaps they need to go with Dubas (report on the Penguins?).

What they are doing seems to be so fan-like, and not disassociated journalism.

They need to get it together. This new campaign against Shanny is hilarious and shows they are lamenting what went on.

They were probably being greased behind the scenes. I don't know for a fact but it sure seems like there was shady business going on and it was larger in scope then has been suggested thus far.