Opinion: Jonas Siegel and James Mirtle are a couple of Jellyfish.

Ianturnedbull

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Jun 11, 2022
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what does this even mean? is the Athletic TO shutting down or something? do we expect that these two guys who have covered the Leafs long before Dubas was GM will just now be unable to do so?
No. I created the thread because they are reeling before our eyes. They are spreading a new dislike/distrust of Shanny, and they are showing a little more emotion than other people writing about Toronto.

In no way am I saying that they can't feel bad for Dubas, and that they can't be emotional. I am just shocked at the lack of journalistic disassociation.

Their reporting and their blog/podcast will live on...
 

Tak7

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Nov 1, 2009
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It will always be hilarious to me how upset people get about media members having different opinions than their own.

Mirtle & Siegel haven't changed their approach, belief, or tone regarding this team, it's core, and the way it's been built. However, because they are prominent and have used their platform to share their belief that the Leafs have made a mistake, it's riled up the anti-Dubas crowd.

Brendan Shanahan decided 13 months ago that he wasn't comfortable extending Kyle Dubas. Over a year later, the organization is now scrambling to find a GM, even though Dubas wanted the Leafs and the Leafs wanted Dubas. If you think this is a smart process-driven approach that will lead to a positive outcome, that's fine - I have some snake oil you might be interested in buying.
 

therealkoho

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A peak back at the Mitch Marner contract negotiations...

Paul Marner: Kyle, we're not going to fight about this, okay?
Kyle Dubas: Paul, I think I told you, I'm a lover not a fighter.
Paul Marner: I've heard it all before, Kyle, Mitch told me that you never loved him. You love Matthews instead remember?
Kyle Dubas: Well, after me, Mitch said he couldn't love another. Here's a blank contract...
Paul Marner: I don't believe it. The Dubas is mine. The doggone Dubas is mine.
Knock knock

Shanny "who's there?"

"It's me Auston Matthews. Brendan, can I come in?"

Shanny "sure what can I do for you today Auston, if I may call you that"?

"Not really I prefer either sir or Mr Matthews, but that's not why I'm here, I'm here cause me and the Biebs wrote a new song, wanna hear it?"

Auston pulls out his pitch pipe and toots out a "G"

Ahem
"I want my, I want my, I want my own GM"
Now look at them guys that's the way ya do it
A new max contract on a 2 year term!
Look at my team mates slogging for the minimum, who cares that those guys are dumb.
Look at them yoyos counting the money just to gets assists on my goals
I got to get the puck into the net, I got to score some really big goals
I'm a killer during the regular season but I'm just a playoff bum"... and so it goes.
 

Dekes For Days

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Dubas deserves a lot of heat for his earlier rosters when Matthews and Marner were taking over the reigns in 2019 and 2020 and the Leafs were doubling down on small, skill, speed.
How do you get beat up by the Washington Capitals and Boston Bruins in 2017 and 2018 and think the answer is to surround your young 21-22 year old core pieces with even smaller support guys while getting rid of that playoff sandpaper in Komarov, Martin, Polak? Dubas was trying to re-invent the wheel but didn't even have a grasp on playoff basics and the human factor of physical and emotional intimidation.
Not sure why you keep trying to push this incorrect idea that Dubas was trying to reinvent the wheel.
They didn't get "beat up" by Washington and Boston, and the Leafs weren't "doubling down" on small skill and speed.
None of the players you named even played through the whole playoffs in 2017 and 2018. Martin only played in the playoffs in 2017, Komarov only played in 2017 and 2 games in 2018 as a suspension replacement, and Polak only played in 2018 and 2 games in 2017. Two of them were removed from our playoff rosters before Dubas even became GM, and the other's contract expired as that transition happened. All were overpaid for what they brought, and Dubas would have been blasted for re-signing healthy scratches to multi-million dollar contracts.
And the idea that those type of players were gotten rid of and never replaced is just flat out wrong.
The main change of players between the 2018 and 2019 playoffs were JVR/Bozak/Plekanec/Polak -> Tavares/Moore/Gauthier/Muzzin.
That's not erasing physicality and getting smaller.
The main change of players between the 2019 and 2020 playoffs were Marleau/Brown/Moore/Kadri/Gauthier/Zaitsev/Gardiner/Hainsey -> Mikheyev/Spezza/Clifford/Kerfoot/Engvall/Holl/Barrie/Ceci. That's not erasing physicality and getting smaller.
In fact, Muzzin was tougher than anybody lost from 2018, and Clifford was tougher than anybody lost from 2019.
Even aside from Muzzin, we had a Polak replacement every year, between Ozhiniganov, Ceci, Bogosian, Lyubushkin, and Schenn.
Tavares is definitely the Big One. If he hadn't signed at $11 million per season, maybe the Big 3 contracts wouldn't have escalated the way they did. You could have saved $3 million on Matthews and Marner combined
UFA contracts have nothing to do with RFA contracts. You're not getting them for 3m less, whether you sign Tavares or not.
Second is they should have been more proactive in moving UFAs like Gardiner and Andersen.
Competitive teams do not move their starting goalie and top-4 defenseman, especially when their internal stocks of potential replacements have been stripped bare by the previous GM. By the time they weren't those things for us and we had potential to move on without taking steps back, they were injured and not worth much.
Yeah if they had moved off Johnsson and Kapanen one year earlier they could have just lived with Marleau.
Much easier to say with hindsight and the knowledge that a sudden, pandemic-induced flat cap helped push them out later, that we're just going to throw away a competitive year and two young players in order to save a cap anchor and on-ice liability.
And then just all the little heads up moves other teams made during this era that Toronto could have plausibly done if they had the cap flexibility. Trading 2 2nd's for Devon Toews, re-signing Verhaeghe instead of passing over a few hundred k.
When did we pass over Verhaeghe, aside from when Lou threw him away? Yeah, if we cherry pick the best hindsight moves around the league over the past 5 years, you could argue any GM had potential missed opportunities. Doesn't really say anything.
 
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therealkoho

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This thread is a really good example of the lack of media literacy in modern society. OP is basically saying because Mirtle and Siegel have opinions different than he does that they were a part of a secret media cabal to spread pro-Dubas propaganda.

James Mirtle was a beat writer for the Leafs long before he wrote for the Athletic. He started during the Kessel era when the team's management did things like:

- Mistakenly give Jeff Finger a contract meant for Kurt Sauer
- Had a GM that in 2014 did not know that you could retain salaries on trades (Nonis)
- Fired a GM 20 games into the 2013 season (allegedly) for not trading for Luongo (Burke)
- Had one of the most expensive analytic departments in the league that they never used because the team didn't believe in them.

He was famously one of the few Toronto area writers that were down on the Leafs in 2013 when they made the playoffs despite having terrible underlying numbers and would often get death threats for it. Around that time, guys like Simmons and Feshchuk were still parroting the "eye test" when neither of them ever wrote about systems play, still don't and their analysis on what happened in a game can be summed up as "Well they did/didn't want it bad enough."

There's a reason why Mirtle and Siegel are more pro-Dubas; it's because Kyle Dubas was the guy that rebuilt the entire Leafs development program and started managing them more like most modern sports execs.
That's not why Burkie got the rubber boot
 

Ianturnedbull

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Not sure why you keep trying to push this incorrect idea that Dubas was trying to reinvent the wheel.
They didn't get "beat up" by Washington and Boston, and the Leafs weren't "doubling down" on small skill and speed.
None of the players you named even played through the whole playoffs in 2017 and 2018. Martin only played in the playoffs in 2017, Komarov only played in 2017 and 2 games in 2018 as a suspension replacement, and Polak only played in 2018 and 2 games in 2017. Two of them were removed from our playoff rosters before Dubas even became GM, and the other's contract expired as that transition happened. All were overpaid for what they brought, and Dubas would have been blasted for re-signing healthy scratches to multi-million dollar contracts.
And the idea that those type of players were gotten rid of and never replaced is just flat out wrong.
The main change of players between the 2018 and 2019 playoffs were JVR/Bozak/Plekanec/Polak -> Tavares/Moore/Gauthier/Muzzin.
That's not erasing physicality and getting smaller.
The main change of players between the 2019 and 2020 playoffs were Marleau/Brown/Moore/Kadri/Gauthier/Zaitsev/Gardiner/Hainsey -> Mikheyev/Spezza/Clifford/Kerfoot/Engvall/Holl/Barrie/Ceci. That's not erasing physicality and getting smaller.
In fact, Muzzin was tougher than anybody lost from 2018, and Clifford was tougher than anybody lost from 2019.
Even aside from Muzzin, we had a Polak replacement every year, between Ozhiniganov, Ceci, Bogosian, Lyubushkin, and Schenn.

UFA contracts have nothing to do with RFA contracts. You're not getting them for 3m less, whether you sign Tavares or not.

Competitive teams do not move their starting goalie and top-4 defenseman, especially when their internal stocks of potential replacements have been stripped bare by the previous GM. By the time they weren't those things for us and we had potential to move on without taking steps back, they were injured and not worth much.

Much easier to say with hindsight and the knowledge that a sudden, pandemic-induced flat cap helped push them out later, that we're just going to throw away a competitive year and two young players in order to save a cap anchor and on-ice liability.

When did we pass over Verhaeghe, aside from when Lou threw him away? Yeah, if we cherry pick the best hindsight moves around the league over the past 5 years, you could argue any GM had potential missed opportunities. Doesn't really say anything.
I don't remember it being how you suggested. Being removed implies healthy scratch, and I seem to remember some of them being injured.

Edit - perhaps Martin was a healthy scratch. There is some truth: Babcock did keep Martin scratched.
 

Dekes For Days

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I don't remember it being how you suggested. Being removed implies healthy scratch, and I seem to remember some of them being injured.
Edit - perhaps Martin was a healthy scratch. There is some truth: Babcock did keep Martin scratched.
In 2018, Martin was healthy scratched the whole playoffs. Komarov played the first 2 games, got injured, and then was healthy scratched when he recovered.
 

kevsh

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even though Dubas wanted the Leafs and the Leafs wanted Dubas.

I'm not entirely sure that first part is the case.

It has been floated as a possibility that Dubas hit Shanahan with an inflated offer because he knew Shanahan would refuse and thereby open the door to Dubas moving on to either Ottawa or Pittsburgh.

And in fairness, talks about an extension had started after the trade deadline so it seemed both sides were heading toward a deal until Dubas had his presser and subsequent contract proposal.
 
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justashadowof

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It's really quite bizarre how Komarov managed to play in 44 and 54 more NHL playoff games respectively after leaving the Leafs' organization.
 

Ianturnedbull

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I do think that Marleau being traded to get out from under his contract was a terrible idea. Dubas had a few trades (many his own doing), where he affected the prospect pool. Again it always seems the same here. The Dubas Robots arrive to defend Dubas using past GMs, Coaches as scapegoats for playoff futility.

Some still taking shots at Komarov. You think he's not an NHLer? Why go at him? Because he was a pest and guy who couldn't toe-drag/dangle?
 
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Dekes For Days

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Some still taking shots at Komarov.
Nobody is taking shots at Komarov. An individual incorrectly suggested that Dubas got rid of Komarov, when he had actually already become a healthy scratch under Babcock and Lou. They also made an incorrect suggestion about why this player with an expiring contract and no role worth anything close to 3m through his 30s wasn't brought back, as well as an incorrect claim about the type of players that replaced the physical players that departed.
 

Stephen

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And kept another first that might actually be in the lineup today.

In some parallel universe Amirov is probably on the cusp of being a Leaf. That was truly unlucky break and just unfair for the kid, and unfortunate from a hockey POV by extension.
 
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Stephen

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Nobody is taking shots at Komarov. An individual incorrectly suggested that Dubas got rid of Komarov, when he had actually already become a healthy scratch under Babcock and Lou. They also made an incorrect suggestion about why this player with an expiring contract and no role worth anything close to 3m through his 30s wasn't brought back, as well as an incorrect claim about the type of players that replaced the physical players that departed.

Justin Holl, Michael Bunting and Timothy Liljegren were healthy scratched at random points in the 2023 playoff “run.”

Surely you can distinguish between not getting into a playoff game via coaching decision and being punted off the roster by the GM and subsequently not replaced for a number of years.
 
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Brobust

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Yeah if they had moved off Johnsson and Kapanen one year earlier they could have just lived with Marleau.

What was reported at the time was moving Marleau would cost Johnsson/Kapanen/1st round pick.

Dubas chose wrong.
 

Dekes For Days

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Justin Holl, Michael Bunting and Timothy Liljegren were healthy scratched at random points in the 2023 playoff “run.”
I'm not sure what your point is. Unlike Komarov, Holl and Bunting played the majority of playoff games, and still, like Komarov, Holl and Bunting likely aren't coming back either. Are we going to build some narrative around that as well? Truth is depth players come and go. Liljegren is a young, developing player trying to break into a much deeper lineup than we had in 2018, not an old, overpaid player in decline with no real role to play.
Surely you can distinguish between not getting into a playoff game via coaching decision and being punted off the roster by the GM and subsequently not replaced for a number of years.
Except that's not what happened. Surely you can distinguish between a player "being punted off the roster by the GM" because he's physical and a player on an expiring contract not being re-signed by a GM after the previous regime and current coach healthy scratched him in the playoffs, because he's not worth 3m to the team through his 30s. And the departing players you named were replaced, as I noted in the ignored post above. Our roster didn't get any less big and physical as we moved into and through the Dubas era.
 

Ianturnedbull

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Nobody is taking shots at Komarov. An individual incorrectly suggested that Dubas got rid of Komarov, when he had actually already become a healthy scratch under Babcock and Lou. They also made an incorrect suggestion about why this player with an expiring contract and no role worth anything close to 3m through his 30s wasn't brought back, as well as an incorrect claim about the type of players that replaced the physical players that departed.

justashadowof was (in their own way)
 

Ianturnedbull

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Dubas was not perfect. He had his best season as a GM in 22-23. He made some great moves especially at the trade deadline. Unfortunately it looks to me that he overplayed his hand with Shanny and MLSE. No one is really talking about it, but some people in the media feel that Kyle used his wife and kids as ponds in his negotiation. Shame on him for offering this up (no one in the media asked him about his family) during the presser, and then later saying the family issues will be smoothed over with a bigger salary/more autonomy. He blew it. When you consider all he's done with this team: a single playoff series win, and a lot of growing pains (lol).
 
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At the end of the day, they put their names to their opinions so people can make threads complaining about them...unlike those of us posting here. Just thought it was worth mentioning due to the "jellyfish" reference, as generally attaching your name to your opinions and standing by them is less spineless than anonymous message board posters.
 

Apex Predator

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At the end of the day, they put their names to their opinions so people can make threads complaining about them...unlike those of us posting here. Just thought it was worth mentioning due to the "jellyfish" reference, as generally attaching your name to your opinions and standing by them is less spineless than anonymous message board posters.
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1685380942549.gif
 

Guided by Veseys

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Opinion: Sports fans shocked -- SHOCKED I say! -- that journalists have opinions counter to their own​

It’s odd though how we never see people leap to the defence of Steve Simmons or in the past Howard Berger. Their stupid biased viewpoints (aka counter opinions) made them targets for derision just like these two jelly burgers Mirtle and Siegel
 
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therealkoho

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Is there some crazy new hoo-doo voo-doo spiritual magic scientific breakthrough that allows us human beans to change the past?

Asking fer a friend
 

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