Opinion: Jonas Siegel and James Mirtle are a couple of Jellyfish.

[leafs in five]

No. I created the thread because they are reeling before our eyes. They are spreading a new dislike/distrust of Shanny, and they are showing a little more emotion than other people writing about Toronto.

In no way am I saying that they can't feel bad for Dubas, and that they can't be emotional. I am just shocked at the lack of journalistic disassociation.

Their reporting and their blog/podcast will live on...

I didn't say anything about them feeling bad? the post I quoted, and others itt, have suggested that these guys enjoyed some sort of free ride with Dubas, presumably meaning privileged access to gossip and unnamed sources and front office-friendly intel. and that this is now over and so they are grieving and lashing out. which seems wrong because among other things: they don't tend to publish much gossip? or I don't subscribe to the athletic but I listen to the podcast, and anyway it doesn't seem like the front office leaked at all under Dubas? certainly compared to Nonis where after every loss Dreger reported a new Jake Gardiner rumour. also, they were often pretty critical of the front office this year, Jonas especially on the Murray trade and the McCabe acquisition and sticking with Liljegren.

anyway I think you are mistaking them being critical of the mess the Leafs have made of this with sympathy for the outgoing GM. though I think obviously these two guys are sympathetic to the way Dubas and his guys approached the game and tried to understand it, zone entries and whatever, and the Athletic hockey section probably conceives of its readership as people more inclined to want to understand hockey that way than how Don Cherry or Nick Kypreos analyses it. but this is more a Chomsky/Andrew Marr thing, if they didn't think of the game like they do they wouldn't be writing about it for the Athletic.

 

[notDatsyuk]

It is the tricky part of this whole discourse that goes on here Dubas' simultaneously inherited a well built team, which apparently is also full of playoff chokers.

To answer your question there were exceedingly few around here willing to trade a Matthews or Marner. Some have wanted Nylander out the door since his draft year.

Did he?

He inherited a team that had Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Martin, Komarov, Polak, Kadri, Rielly, etc.

The only real 'playoff choker' seems to be Marner.

 

[notDatsyuk]

A goalie, dman, centerman, winger instead of 2 wingers and 2 centres seems a better way to spend $ and to balance a roster.

Yep - the big mistake.

"We have a great young #1C, a very good #2C, and two excellent young wingers, but we're lacking on defence and in net. Let's overpay a decent but slow guy to be our #2C, and guarantee we can't get rid of him, even past his expiry date."

 

[notDatsyuk]

I am pretty sure Kyle just got mugged by the agents for the Big 3. I don't know that JT was even a factor. Willie was looking at Drai, Mitch was dreaming of AM money because he was outscoring him, and AM was looking at McDavid. A new GM with zero experience at high end contracts is fresh meat to them. He wants to be friends with his boys, make them part of the Leaf family' and the agents just want to bleed him white. Having a good relationship with the player doesn't help much when they pretend its their agent doing the squeeze and not them.

"Mugged by the agents for the big three" is right, but wrong "big three".

Nylander's contract, even after the holdout, wasn't bad, and is a bargain, especially now.

JT's contract is the first really bad one, and Matthews and Marner were looking at his for comparables. If he had been signed for $9-9.5, they likely would have come one around that, instead of around $11M.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I do think that Marleau being traded to get out from under his contract was a terrible idea. Dubas had a few trades (many his own doing), where he affected the prospect pool. Again it always seems the same here. The Dubas Robots arrive to defend Dubas using past GMs, Coaches as scapegoats for playoff futility.

Some still taking shots at Komarov. You think he's not an NHLer? Why go at him? Because he was a pest and guy who couldn't toe-drag/dangle?

Denegrating him because Dubas didn't re-sign him.

Actually, I think it's more a matter of Lou not re-signing him here so he could take Leo to New York with him.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Justin Holl, Michael Bunting and Timothy Liljegren were healthy scratched at random points in the 2023 playoff “run.”

Surely you can distinguish between not getting into a playoff game via coaching decision and being punted off the roster by the GM and subsequently not replaced for a number of years.

But remember how much better we did in the playoffs without Martin and Komarov than the Islanders did the next few years with them.

Obviously a brilliant coaching decision by Babcock and a terrible one by Trotz.

On a side note, it's nice to have Dekes back - I missed his unintentional humour.

 

[myleafs]

Knock knock

Shanny "who's there?"

"It's me Auston Matthews. Brendan, can I come in?"

Shanny "sure what can I do for you today Auston, if I may call you that"?

"Not really I prefer either sir or Mr Matthews, but that's not why I'm here, I'm here cause me and the Biebs wrote a new song, wanna hear it?"

Auston pulls out his pitch pipe and toots out a "G"

Ahem
"I want my, I want my, I want my own GM"
Now look at them guys that's the way ya do it
A new max contract on a 2 year term!
Look at my team mates slogging for the minimum, who cares that those guys are dumb.
Look at them yoyos counting the money just to gets assists on my goals
I got to get the puck into the net, I got to score some really big goals
I'm a killer during the regular season but I'm just a playoff bum"... and so it goes.

 

[leafs in five]

A goalie, dman, centerman, winger instead of 2 wingers and 2 centres seems a better way to spend $ and to balance a roster.

5 weeks ago they were spending 1/4 of the total on backup goalie. a 1a/b at best.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Opinion: Sports fans shocked -- SHOCKED I say! -- that journalists paid shills have opinions counter to their own​

Edited for accuracy.

 

[leafs in five]

who pays them to shill? the Athletic pays them to shill for Kyle Dubas?

 

[nuck]

"Mugged by the agents for the big three" is right, but wrong "big three".

Nylander's contract, even after the holdout, wasn't bad, and is a bargain, especially now.

JT's contract is the first really bad one, and Matthews and Marner were looking at his for comparables. If he had been signed for $9-9.5, they likely would have come one around that, instead of around $11M.

Nylander's contract was kind of bad at the time. His actual salary was $7.5M but he missed a third of a season which knocked the AAV down. He was only a $6.9M player if he was being paid for the games he didn't play but you don't do that unless a player is injured. Then he came back and was worse than the players that had replaced his minutes while he sat, so effectively that whole first season was flushed. His comps were Forsberg and Pasta (he wishes) and after cap inflation is applied to their deals both would still be under $7M. And WN got $24M in signing bonuses, Pasta $7M and Forsberg $0M.

$6.9M is only a bargain if he is giving you 40g and 80 points every year. This year Pasta giving 61g and 113p for $6.5M and Gaudreau giving 115pts for $6.75M last year are the real bargains. Some growth is expected which would have been Willie's argument for why he should get more than what a 20g 40a winger was getting paid in Winnipeg. And on top of that how much energy could Dubas possibly have left for the next two after such a marathon? I hope the other guys at least bought him a steak.

The best thing that could have happened would have been for Lou to have traded Nylander for a D before he got canned so Marner's contract didn't spill over into the season after Mitch caught fire beside Tavares.

I am going to say Eichel set the "below the floor" for Matthews at $10M and the big reach was really for McDavid money. Even the most optimistic agent knows UFAs are on a different scale but the ridiculous overpay on Eichel's deal after a 64 p in 67g season kind of redrew the map. Thats actually a Terry Pegula thing I think because nobody with any understanding of the economics of the game pays $10M for Eichel at that point in his career (same as the later Skinner deal). Jack had draft position and a 78pt pace which has to be worth somewhere below $9M at the time.

Matthews agent says "he is a #1 draft so please don't compare him to that lowly 64p $10M #2 pick and plus he is already a better goal scorer than McDavid and BTW maybe we will need to wait until the summer to really consider your offer. You don't really want to go there do you"? Dubas "We can't and we won't. Where do I sign?"

Mitch's agent says "my guy is on a pace for 100 pts, way more than Matthews, never mind that dirt bag Eichel. What do you mean small pass first wingers aren't setting the market? Are you ready for Willie 2.0 because Mitch's dad is a more stubborn and less informed than Willie's and we are going to bring the pain?" Dubas. I can't and I won't. Where do I sign?"

Not arguing JT was an overpay, but $11M isn't that bad if you have no other players making over $7M in your lineup so like all UFAs the cost is excessive. I wouldn't have signed him but if I had to Stamkos + $1M is the number.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Nylander's contract was kind of bad at the time. His actual salary was $7.5M but he missed a third of a season which knocked the AAV down. He was only a $6.9M player if he was being paid for the games he didn't play but you don't do that unless a player is injured. Then he came back and was worse than the players that had replaced his minutes while he sat, so effectively that whole first season was flushed. His comps were Forsberg and Pasta (he wishes) and after cap inflation is applied to their deals both would still be under $7M. And WN got $24M in signing bonuses, Pasta $7M and Forsberg $0M.

$6.9M is only a bargain if he is giving you 40g and 80 points every year. This year Pasta giving 61g and 113p for $6.5M and Gaudreau giving 115pts for $6.75M last year are the real bargains. Some growth is expected which would have been Willie's argument for why he should get more than what a 20g 40a winger was getting paid in Winnipeg. And on top of that how much energy could Dubas possibly have left for the next two after such a marathon? I hope the other guys at least bought him a steak.

The best thing that could have happened would have been for Lou to have traded Nylander for a D before he got canned so Marner's contract didn't spill over into the season after Mitch caught fire beside Tavares.

I am going to say Eichel set the "below the floor" for Matthews at $10M and the big reach was really for McDavid money. Even the most optimistic agent knows UFAs are on a different scale but the ridiculous overpay on Eichel's deal after a 64 p in 67g season kind of redrew the map. Thats actually a Terry Pegula thing I think because nobody with any understanding of the economics of the game pays $10M for Eichel at that point in his career (same as the later Skinner deal). Jack had draft position and a 78pt pace which has to be worth somewhere below $9M at the time.

Matthews agent says "he is a #1 draft so please don't compare him to that lowly 64p $10M #2 pick and plus he is already a better goal scorer than McDavid and BTW maybe we will need to wait until the summer to really consider your offer. You don't really want to go there do you"? Dubas "We can't and we won't. Where do I sign?"

Mitch's agent says "my guy is on a pace for 100 pts, way more than Matthews, never mind that dirt bag Eichel. What do you mean small pass first wingers aren't setting the market? Are you ready for Willie 2.0 because Mitch's dad is a more stubborn and less informed than Willie's and we are going to bring the pain?" Dubas. I can't and I won't. Where do I sign?"

Not arguing JT was an overpay, but $11M isn't that bad if you have no other players making over $7M in your lineup so like all UFAs the cost is excessive. I wouldn't have signed him but if I had to Stamkos + $1M is the number.

First, the signing bonuses are part of the salary - you can't pretend that they are extra. If you want to look at bonuses separately, then look at actual salaries separately, which means Willy at under $3.5M, Forsberg at $6M, and Partrnak at a bit over $4.3M.

Second, I don't see how you can even come up with the idea that Willy wore Dubas out so badly that over two months later (for Matty) and over nine months later (for Mitch), he couldn't negotiate properly. That is either the oddest take I've seen or the worst condemnation of Dubas I've seen.

The best thing that could have happened would have been if Dubas hadn't signed JT to that ridiculous contract. Then he would have been in a position to sign all three at more reasonable rates (plus, he would have had the energy ).

 

[Bomber0104]

who pays them to shill? the Athletic pays them to shill for Kyle Dubas?

The Athletic pays shills to write about the Leafs. Shills shilled for the ex-Leafs GM writing the fluff pieces. Ex-Leafs GM gave them scraps to write off of.

Pretty basic symbiotic relationship.

For an ex-GM like Dubas who had very little credibility or success to fall back on, you could imagine how badly he needed the local media on his side.

 

[Stephen]

Nylander's contract was kind of bad at the time. His actual salary was $7.5M but he missed a third of a season which knocked the AAV down. He was only a $6.9M player if he was being paid for the games he didn't play but you don't do that unless a player is injured. Then he came back and was worse than the players that had replaced his minutes while he sat, so effectively that whole first season was flushed. His comps were Forsberg and Pasta (he wishes) and after cap inflation is applied to their deals both would still be under $7M. And WN got $24M in signing bonuses, Pasta $7M and Forsberg $0M.

$6.9M is only a bargain if he is giving you 40g and 80 points every year. This year Pasta giving 61g and 113p for $6.5M and Gaudreau giving 115pts for $6.75M last year are the real bargains. Some growth is expected which would have been Willie's argument for why he should get more than what a 20g 40a winger was getting paid in Winnipeg. And on top of that how much energy could Dubas possibly have left for the next two after such a marathon? I hope the other guys at least bought him a steak.

The best thing that could have happened would have been for Lou to have traded Nylander for a D before he got canned so Marner's contract didn't spill over into the season after Mitch caught fire beside Tavares.

I am going to say Eichel set the "below the floor" for Matthews at $10M and the big reach was really for McDavid money. Even the most optimistic agent knows UFAs are on a different scale but the ridiculous overpay on Eichel's deal after a 64 p in 67g season kind of redrew the map. Thats actually a Terry Pegula thing I think because nobody with any understanding of the economics of the game pays $10M for Eichel at that point in his career (same as the later Skinner deal). Jack had draft position and a 78pt pace which has to be worth somewhere below $9M at the time.

Matthews agent says "he is a #1 draft so please don't compare him to that lowly 64p $10M #2 pick and plus he is already a better goal scorer than McDavid and BTW maybe we will need to wait until the summer to really consider your offer. You don't really want to go there do you"? Dubas "We can't and we won't. Where do I sign?"

Mitch's agent says "my guy is on a pace for 100 pts, way more than Matthews, never mind that dirt bag Eichel. What do you mean small pass first wingers aren't setting the market? Are you ready for Willie 2.0 because Mitch's dad is a more stubborn and less informed than Willie's and we are going to bring the pain?" Dubas. I can't and I won't. Where do I sign?"

Not arguing JT was an overpay, but $11M isn't that bad if you have no other players making over $7M in your lineup so like all UFAs the cost is excessive. I wouldn't have signed him but if I had to Stamkos + $1M is the number.

In hindsight Dubas did pretty well with the Nylander deal. He wasn't a massive discount or the level of player as Pasta. But the problem is Dubas probably read it as a loss and didn't want to play hardball on the next 2.

 

[leafs in five]

The Athletic pays shills to write about the Leafs. Shills shilled for the ex-Leafs GM writing the fluff pieces. Ex-Leafs GM gave them scraps to write off of.

Pretty basic symbiotic relationship.

For an ex-GM like Dubas who had very little credibility or success to fall back on, you could imagine how badly he needed the local media on his side.

oh is it a pretty basic symbiotic relationship?

 

[Nineteen67]

who pays them to shill? the Athletic pays them to shill for Kyle Dubas?

Because Dubas uses stats and those two dummies have a subscription to a stats website they think they’re in the same club.

 

[therealkoho]

a guy has played 50 playoff games and has 44 points

a different guy has also played 50 playoff games and he has 47 points

why is one a choker, the other is so marvellous as to be viewed both as beatific and sanctified.

askin for a friend

 

[nuck]

First, the signing bonuses are part of the salary - you can't pretend that they are extra. If you want to look at bonuses separately, then look at actual salaries separately, which means Willy at under $3.5M, Forsberg at $6M, and Partrnak at a bit over $4.3M.

Second, I don't see how you can even come up with the idea that Willy wore Dubas out so badly that over two months later (for Matty) and over nine months later (for Mitch), he couldn't negotiate properly. That is either the oddest take I've seen or the worst condemnation of Dubas I've seen.

The best thing that could have happened would have been if Dubas hadn't signed JT to that ridiculous contract. Then he would have been in a position to sign all three at more reasonable rates (plus, he would have had the energy ).

The signing bonus's are a payment given to players before they play the first game of the season. They receive it whether there is a lockout or not. They can spend or invest it immediately rather than wait to be be paid in salary during the season. So yes not extra money but a measurable financial benefit to the player. Willies year two bonus was $8.3M which seems like a lot until you compare it to Matthews and Tavares.

Dubas negotiating position after the "we can and we will" statement and Shanny's "take a little less" speech was at its peak that summer. I guess you could imagine that other agents were looking at Kyle and thinking he was a rock who stuck to his guns with Nylander but they can do the math with the comps and see what he got. Having a player sit for 28 games and still set the market for his salary has to be a fail by any standard. He pulled it in for the save at the end but it obviously didn't go according to plan. And Willie was the least of these contracts. Gross said they started talking about Willie's next deal at the draft. The plan would have been to get all three extensions done in the summer and be dealing with three sub 70 point guys. By the time Willie signs, Mitch is scoring at a 105pt pace and the Matthews rumors are starting to swirl. I guess if you don't think this affected Dubas I can't convince you otherwise. Mistake #1 was the Tavares deal but I think Willie set the table for the others in a big way. The alternative I guess is that Dubas was thinking
AM was $11.6 x 5 all along and just needed to work out the details?

From 2020 and we all heard this from other sources
"I will tell you this, the Toronto Maple Leafs 100% believed that if Auston Matthews got to July 1st last year, Arizona was gonna offer sheet him 7 years the max. I have looked at it and people around the league have told me they believe that to be the case." - Elliotte Friedman

 

[nuck]

In hindsight Dubas did pretty well with the Nylander deal. He wasn't a massive discount or the level of player as Pasta. But the problem is Dubas probably read it as a loss and didn't want to play hardball on the next 2.

If he had managed that deal in the summer it could have been a much better outcome but the rumor was Team Willie was using the Draisaitl deal as a target so that wasn't going to happen. And I don't imagine the final number from the Leafs was something Willie was shown over the summer so it was doomed to drag out. Tougher to play hardball with Mitch when he is having basically a best case scenario season.

I don't know where the crazy Matthews momentum came from other than AZ rumors but I have heard agents often want to talk about % of the cap rather than true comparisons of players. Like "player x is the same age as my guy and drafted in the same spot and he's getting 15% so you need to pay us 15%."

Really except for the Tavares deal, Kyle had no experience dealing with contracts for star NHLers and at that point the Leafs though they had infinite money to play with so they opened the wallet all the way, unaware of what the kids were planning. It just strikes me as so odd that the deal AM received with that monster front loading was a "compromise lower number" because 8 years would have been a lot more. This is the agent they have to cut the next deal with?

 

[Stephen]

If he had managed that deal in the summer it could have been a much better outcome but the rumor was Team Willie was using the Draisaitl deal as a target so that wasn't going to happen. And I don't imagine the final number from the Leafs was something Willie was shown over the summer so it was doomed to drag out. Tougher to play hardball with Mitch when he is having basically a best case scenario season.

I don't know where the crazy Matthews momentum came from other than AZ rumors but I have heard agents often want to talk about % of the cap rather than true comparisons of players. Like "player x is the same age as my guy and drafted in the same spot and he's getting 15% so you need to pay us 15%."

Really except for the Tavares deal, Kyle had no experience dealing with contracts for star NHLers and at that point the Leafs though they had infinite money to play with so they opened the wallet all the way, unaware of what the kids were planning. It just strikes me as so odd that the deal AM received with that monster front loading was a "compromise lower number" because 8 years would have been a lot more. This is the agent the get to cut the next deal with.

Kyle is a poor big picture thinker and I don’t say this to put him down…

But take a look at the energy he wasted hardballing Rasmus Sandin all summer vs his panic buy of Matt Murray the same day he got rid of Mrazek.

I appreciate that he drew a line in the sand vs a young defenseman negotiating beyond reason. But think about the real dollars lost when he chose to be casual on Ottawa’s 25% retention vs 50%. Like where’s the logic and consistency in applying pressure and saving money? Look at all the stuff Ottawa lined up that needed Murray to be gone.

Then look at how fiscally responsible he was in letting Hyman go, even going so far as to not help Edmonton on the 8 year sign and trade 2 years ago only to leep $5.5 million in Holl and Kerfoot. And look at the dead cap in letting an unhealthy Muzzin roll into last year only to hit a career ending injury 4 games into the season.

Makes no sense.

 

[Tak7]

I'm not entirely sure that first part is the case.

They negotiated a new deal which was basically done after the Tampa series.

You don't get that far if there's not interest from both sides.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The signing bonus's are a payment given to players before they play the first game of the season. They receive it whether there is a lockout or not. They can spend or invest it immediately rather than wait to be be paid in salary during the season. So yes not extra money but a measurable financial benefit to the player. Willies year two bonus was $8.3M which seems like a lot until you compare it to Matthews and Tavares.

Dubas negotiating position after the "we can and we will" statement and Shanny's "take a little less" speech was at its peak that summer. I guess you could imagine that other agents were looking at Kyle and thinking he was a rock who stuck to his guns with Nylander but they can do the math with the comps and see what he got. Having a player sit for 28 games and still set the market for his salary has to be a fail by any standard. He pulled it in for the save at the end but it obviously didn't go according to plan. And Willie was the least of these contracts. Gross said they started talking about Willie's next deal at the draft. The plan would have been to get all three extensions done in the summer and be dealing with three sub 70 point guys. By the time Willie signs, Mitch is scoring at a 105pt pace and the Matthews rumors are starting to swirl. I guess if you don't think this affected Dubas I can't convince you otherwise. Mistake #1 was the Tavares deal but I think Willie set the table for the others in a big way. The alternative I guess is that Dubas was thinking
AM was $11.6 x 5 all along and just needed to work out the details?

From 2020 and we all heard this from other sources
"I will tell you this, the Toronto Maple Leafs 100% believed that if Auston Matthews got to July 1st last year, Arizona was gonna offer sheet him 7 years the max. I have looked at it and people around the league have told me they believe that to be the case." - Elliotte Friedman

Yes, a signing bonus gives a slight edge, but you can't say "they all got paid $7M but one got a $24M bonus" as though that was extra.

Jt's contract was the one that set the table. Willy was the one who didn't benefit from it as much as the other two. Willy's was the only one of the four contracts that you could possibly call a win for Dubas.

 

[MilkofthePoppy]

The Athletic is absolute garbage from top to bottom. A rag with a political agenda that pretends to cover sports.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Opinion: Sports fans shocked -- SHOCKED I say! -- that journalists have opinions counter to their own​

What's their opinion?

 

[keonsbitterness]

What's their opinion?

Who and about what?