Opinion: Jonas Siegel and James Mirtle are a couple of Jellyfish.

[ULF_55]

How can you say this?

and this?

It sounds like he inherited a problem, not a good team, depending on what point you're trying to make.

This is the thing that always gets my attention.

Dubas didn't draft any of the core of this team.
Dubas did sign Tavares, still a PPG player.
Dubas did leave Keefe in charge of the on-ice activities.

We can lay the blame completely at Dubas feet for the coach and Tavares.
Unless of course he wasn't permitted to fire Keefe? Hmmm?

We can blame Dubas for not trading Matthews, marner or Nylander.

Really, I have to say not firing Keefe was his undoing, unless analysis points to Matthews and marner being unable to handle pressure. Yes, they've lead the team in points most post seasons, but they've also gone two complete playoffs rounds where in each round they scored a total of 1 goal between them. I know this is beating a dead horse, but everyone knows it, but how can you place the blame on Dubas for Matthews and marner totaling 2 goals in 12 playoff games?

You can't.

Honestly, the total blame for that has to be shared by Keefe, Matthews and marner.

But the responsibility for that does rise to the top, Dubas and Shanahan.

Here is a question for everyone, if you knew marner and Matthews suffered from this stage fright, would you have encouraged trading them while they still had term?

 

[ShaneFalco]

Here is a question for everyone, if you knew marner and Matthews suffered from this stage fright, would you have encouraged trading them while they still had term?

MM would have been dealt already
Entitled, lacks self-awareness, not hungry enough. Also sensitive as hell/immature

 

[57 Years No Cup]

The beginning of the movie with Cruise and Zellwegger but imagine its Kyle and Spezza



Seriously there is likely to be some kind of exodus. Once KD gets his new gig he will reach out to people that he knows and trusts. Every new GM does it, even sometimes replacing people with with seemingly less competent folks that they are familiar with. There will probably be some good people lost but the new GM will do the same with his own circle. Hopefully Pridham and Sanford stay. I am not too attached to the rest. Interesting times ahead.

I found this vid of Dubas asking for his peeps:

 

[Stephen]

Here is a question for everyone, if you knew marner and Matthews suffered from this stage fright, would you have encouraged trading them while they still had term?

Dubas deserves a lot of heat for his earlier rosters when Matthews and Marner were taking over the reigns in 2019 and 2020 and the Leafs were doubling down on small, skill, speed.

How do you get beat up by the Washington Capitals and Boston Bruins in 2017 and 2018 and think the answer is to surround your young 21-22 year old core pieces with even smaller support guys while getting rid of that playoff sandpaper in Komarov, Martin, Polak? Dubas was trying to re-invent the wheel but didn't even have a grasp on playoff basics and the human factor of physical and emotional intimidation.

 

[sxvnert]

Now Siegel is interviewing anonymous MLSE employees who worked with Dubas and are "in mourning". I'm sorry? They are mourning? Yeah. Dubas must have been a nice guy, but doesn't Siegel know what pro sports is like? Did the MLSE employees think that a team who wins 1 playoff round in 7 attempts isn't going to last?

The saddest part of that article was Jonas never realizing how pathetic he made the Dubas hires look. Jonas actually thought he was helping with that Soviet-tier propaganda piece.

 

[Menzinger]

Dubas deserves a lot of heat for his earlier rosters when Matthews and Marner were taking over the reigns in 2019 and 2020 and the Leafs were doubling down on small, skill, speed.

How do you get beat up by the Washington Capitals and Boston Bruins in 2017 and 2018 and think the answer is to surround your young 21-22 year old core pieces with even smaller support guys while getting rid of that playoff sandpaper in Komarov, Martin, Polak? Dubas was trying to re-invent the wheel but didn't even have a grasp on playoff basics and the human factor of physical and emotional intimidation.

Eh, worth remembering Martin only played in the Washington series before being banished to the pressbox by Babcock - who also sat Leo after game 6 in the playoffs for Johnsson. Dubas' wasn't exactly alone in shaping the roster a certain way.

Not replacing the Polak type in the D I think turned out to be more of glaring omission - particularly given the tdl moves the last two years which added that type back in

 

[rumman]

This is the thing that always gets my attention.

Dubas didn't draft any of the core of this team.
Dubas did sign Tavares, still a PPG player.
Dubas did leave Keefe in charge of the on-ice activities.

We can lay the blame completely at Dubas feet for the coach and Tavares.
Unless of course he wasn't permitted to fire Keefe? Hmmm?

We can blame Dubas for not trading Matthews, marner or Nylander.

Really, I have to say not firing Keefe was his undoing, unless analysis points to Matthews and marner being unable to handle pressure. Yes, they've lead the team in points most post seasons, but they've also gone two complete playoffs rounds where in each round they scored a total of 1 goal between them. I know this is beating a dead horse, but everyone knows it, but how can you place the blame on Dubas for Matthews and marner totaling 2 goals in 12 playoff games?

You can't.

Honestly, the total blame for that has to be shared by Keefe, Matthews and marner.

But the responsibility for that does rise to the top, Dubas and Shanahan.

Here is a question for everyone, if you knew marner and Matthews suffered from this stage fright, would you have encouraged trading them while they still had term?

Whoever came up with the genius idea of spending half your cap on four players is to blame for everything, those who agreed with the idea are just as much to blame………

 

[ULF_55]

Whoever came up with the genius idea of spending half your cap on four players is to blame for everything, those who agreed with the idea are just as much to blame………

Yes.

And especially true if half of that four disappear when the going gets tough.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Whoever came up with the genius idea of spending half your cap on four players is to blame for everything, those who agreed with the idea are just as much to blame………

Ehh. Florida is paying nearly as much for Bob, Tkachuk, Barkov, and Ekblad .. and no one seems to be making an issue of that. But that's because Bob and Tkachuk are playing like they're being paid right now in the playoffs.

Had any of the core players have done that in their playoff performances, there would be more success that followed.

Problem is the Leafs hitched their wagon to the wrong core players .. and Dubas' continually gambling on them was his downfall.

 

[Menzinger]

This is the thing that always gets my attention.

Dubas didn't draft any of the core of this team.
Dubas did sign Tavares, still a PPG player.
Dubas did leave Keefe in charge of the on-ice activities.

We can lay the blame completely at Dubas feet for the coach and Tavares.
Unless of course he wasn't permitted to fire Keefe? Hmmm?

We can blame Dubas for not trading Matthews, marner or Nylander.

Really, I have to say not firing Keefe was his undoing, unless analysis points to Matthews and marner being unable to handle pressure. Yes, they've lead the team in points most post seasons, but they've also gone two complete playoffs rounds where in each round they scored a total of 1 goal between them. I know this is beating a dead horse, but everyone knows it, but how can you place the blame on Dubas for Matthews and marner totaling 2 goals in 12 playoff games?

You can't.

Honestly, the total blame for that has to be shared by Keefe, Matthews and marner.

But the responsibility for that does rise to the top, Dubas and Shanahan.

Here is a question for everyone, if you knew marner and Matthews suffered from this stage fright, would you have encouraged trading them while they still had term?

It is the tricky part of this whole discourse that goes on here Dubas' simultaneously inherited a well built team, which apparently is also full of playoff chokers.

To answer your question there were exceedingly few around here willing to trade a Matthews or Marner. Some have wanted Nylander out the door since his draft year.

 

[Stephen]

Eh, worth remembering Martin only played in the Washington series before being banished to the pressbox by Babcock - who also sat Leo after game 6 in the playoffs for Johnsson. Dubas' wasn't exactly alone in shaping the roster a certain way.

Not replacing the Polak type in the D I think turned out to be more of glaring omission - particularly given the tdl moves the last two years which added that type back in

I really don't find it that useful to distinguish between a Babcock error and a Dubas error to be honest. Babcock was summarily dismissed in the fall of 2019, while Dubas had another 4 kicks at the can to get the supporting cast right.

 

[ULF_55]

Ehh. Florida is paying nearly as much for Bob, Tkachuk, Barkov, and Ekblad .. and no one seems to be making an issue of that. But that's because Bob and Tkachuk are playing like they're being paid right now in the playoffs.

Had any of the core players have done that in their playoff performances, there would be more success that followed.

Problem is the Leafs hitched their wagon to the wrong core players .. and Dubas' continually gambling on them was his downfall.

Yes, if you got expected results there would be a much different perspective.

 

[Menzinger]

I really don't find it that useful to distinguish between a Babcock error and a Dubas error to be honest. Babcock was summarily dismissed in the fall of 2019, while Dubas had another 4 kicks at the can to get the supporting cast right.

I don't think it needs to be distinguished - I think it's more just think it's a mistake to focus just on Dubas on this - the roster that unfolded over the last 5-6 seasons was a collective effort of Babs, Keefe, Dubas', Shanny and the rest of the front office.

 

[ULF_55]

It is the tricky part of this whole discourse that goes on here Dubas' simultaneously inherited a well built team, which apparently is also full of playoff chokers.

To answer your question there were exceedingly few around here willing to trade a Matthews or Marner. Some have wanted Nylander out the door since his draft year.

Who wants to believe your first statement?

I think many would turn themselves into pretzels trying to point blame at others.

 

[Menzinger]

Who wants to believe your first statement?

I think many would turn themselves into pretzels trying to point blame at others.

Probably very few.

 

[socko]

It is the tricky part of this whole discourse that goes on here Dubas' simultaneously inherited a well built team, which apparently is also full of playoff chokers.

Yes (young & talented) and Yes (losers). Which is why Nylander should have sat out that entire season, Marner should have been let go to that offer sheet collecting the 4 first round picks, and Tavares should have never happened.

 

[Stephen]

I don't think it needs to be distinguished - I think it's more just think it's a mistake to focus just on Dubas on this - the roster that unfolded over the last 5-6 seasons was a collective effort of Babs, Keefe, Dubas', Shanny and the rest of the front office.

100%. It takes a village to squander the unlimited potential this core once had.

 

[therealkoho]

Clearly they are reeling from Dubas' dismissal, and clearly they are friends with KD. 2 weeks ago they were ok with Shanahan. Now they are distrusting of anything Shanny does/says.

Now Siegel is interviewing anonymous MLSE employees who worked with Dubas and are "in mourning". I'm sorry? They are mourning? Yeah. Dubas must have been a nice guy, but doesn't Siegel know what pro sports is like? Did the MLSE employees think that a team who wins 1 playoff round in 7 attempts isn't going to last?

I think this is petty stuff and I can't believe that Mirtle/Siegel can't handle this.

Perhaps they were too close to Dubas and perhaps they need to go with Dubas (report on the Penguins?).

What they are doing seems to be so fan-like, and not disassociated journalism.

They need to get it together. This new campaign against Shanny is hilarious and shows they are lamenting what went on.

I know what an idiotic narrative they're trying to create. I guess the whole of MLSE is siting Shiva at Tannenbaums house lol

 

[therealkoho]

To be honest, when you start hearing names like Chiarelli and Bergevin it's easy to go into mourning.

No worries it's more than likely Treliving, they just haven't announced yet.

I'd almost bet he's already trying to line up a crazy snooker shot, and move some major money out west

 

[Stephen]

It is the tricky part of this whole discourse that goes on here Dubas' simultaneously inherited a well built team, which apparently is also full of playoff chokers.

To answer your question there were exceedingly few around here willing to trade a Matthews or Marner. Some have wanted Nylander out the door since his draft year.

My summary of this era is the Toronto Maple Leafs were never a well built team, but a remarkable collection of talent that could be molded into a great team with the right stewardship. That was Dubas' inheritance when he took over as GM which I am comfortable saying he squandered.

Where the Leafs went wrong is they were too much in love with the talent showcase the Core 4 superficially represented, and never built the right team of 12 F, 6 D and 2 G. They had an NBA core an an interchangeable bench. Or a boy band surrounded by a subpar hockey team with substitute teachers everywhere.

 

[Trapper]

Yes, if you got expected results there would be a much different perspective.

When something happens over and over isn’t that the expected result?

 

[Menzinger]

My summary of this era is the Toronto Maple Leafs were never a well built team, but a remarkable collection of talent that could be molded into a great team with the right stewardship. That was Dubas' inheritance when he took over as GM which I am comfortable saying he squandered.

Where the Leafs went wrong is they were too much in love with the talent showcase the Core 4 superficially represented, and never built the right team of 12 F, 6 D and 2 G. They had an NBA core an an interchangeable bench. Or a boy band surrounded by a subpar hockey team with substitute teachers everywhere.

I think that's fair.

But another tricky issue I think is thinking up an alternative path that the team could have taken.

Very few would have been open to trading Marner or Matthews so soon. Nylander likely had way less trade value as a 60-70 point player than he does now as a PPG 40 goal guy, so I don't see trading him much earlier as helping all that much.

In retrospect it likely would have been wise to avoid the Tavares signing. Yet, how many here were truthfully opposed to signing a top 10 centre (at the time) for nothing but capspace. The signing was overwhelmingly popular.

So imo I think it's fairly hard (though admittedly not impossible) to see an easy alternative path to how things unfolded

Perhaps the biggest "what if" is what if the Blue Jackets had ultimately accepted the trade back scenario for what would have been the Marner pick at the 2015 draft and the team ended up with a Werenski, or Rantanen + a bunch of other picks from that draft.

 

[therealkoho]

Actually, it doesn't need be the next GM.

Leafs GM reports to Shanahan who reports to ...

It's really up to ... to make those decisions.

Anyone can make a suggestion to Shanny who can make a sugges...

...

Let's put it this way, if Chicago came to Shanahan and said, our 1st. overall for Nylander does anyone on the planet over the age of 5 say, "Sorry we have to wait until we hire our GM"?

Unless they cleaned house, and I haven't heard that has happened, they should still have the infrastructure in place to make moves/transactions. All that is gone is Dubas personal vision of how to GM the Leafs.

I'm not saying anyone on this board could GM the Leafs, but many on this board are aware of the issues with the team. So you could be GM and pass suggestions up the chain ... and they'd let you know if they agree and give you permission to execute that suggestion.

What would you look at first?

Coach
Matthews
UFA's

So, would you care whether Matthews agreed with your choice of coach? Remember you're acting as new GM. Do you care whether Matthews likes the new coach? Do you care enough not to hire that coach? Do you fire the coach but put off hiring your new coach? I think letting Keefe go now does give him more time to find his next job, and let's all the other coaches out there know there is an opening in Toronto.

If I were the Pres or the GM and I had to ask a player no matter who it was, if it was OK to hire Mr Smith as coach, I'd ask the player if I needed to clear it with his mum as well. I would then trade his entitled arse to the Gorky Torpedo

Then he walked to the Soo in his bare feet, without food or drink, to light a candle. It was then he was complete and healed.

Just because this needs to be seen

 

[WillTheThrill]

No worries it's more than likely Treliving, they just haven't announced yet.

I'd almost bet he's already trying to line up a crazy snooker shot, and move some major money out west

Shanny may have something to say about that

 

[therealkoho]

Thirteen!

Sundin Wore #13

Sundin Led Muskoka 5

Dubas Was Gm 5 Years

Are You Suggesting This Is A Coincidence?

Uhm well...not exactly