Oilers waive Jack Campbell

[TB12]

Yup. I was always a huge Holtby fan so I remember reading a lot about Stevenson's work. Would be worth a shot imo.

I’ve worked with John before and would absolutely recommend him.

 

[guymez]

Hold on, so the coach Campbell worked with over the off-season that resulted in Campbell playing so poorly he is now playing in the AHL, that's the guy that Campbell is asking to work with to improve? Am I missing something?

Thats pretty accurate actually.
Some on here would have you believe that just a week or 2 of being around Schwartz has completely messed up Campbells season again and that Schwartz is actually the problem.
If you can make sense of that you are further ahead than me.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Wonder if the mental coach Holtby used to work with would be able to help. Clearly did wonders for Holtby.

I always liked Holtby and saw him a ton as a junior. Stevenson is well regarded and has consulted with the Oilers. Not sure if he's still. But for sure the mental aspect of goaltending position is the primary issue for Jack Campbell.

Big picture, Edmonton's actually been a pretty progressive Petri dish for goaltending coaching. The tracking method HeadTrajectoryTM by Lyle Mast and John Stevenson's Mental Skill Programs. Impressive stuff. People might not like to know that Schwartz has worked for a long time with both innovators.

Goaltenders are increasing working with a team of coaches to help their game mentally, technique, physical and training. Here's good article of Stevenson and Schwartz's long-term work with Carter Hart: A Thinking Man's Goaltender - Everett Silvertips

And a summary of Stevenson's specialized performance coaching and psychology under pinning it:

Zone Performance Psychology​

Sherwood Park, AB

John Stevenson specializes in the fields of Sport Psychology, Success, and Performance Psychology. John obtained his Master’s degree in Sports Psychology from Toronto’s York University in 1992, and subsequently obtained a second Master’s degree in Counselling Psychology from City University in Edmonton in 2006. In addition to his designation as a Registered Psychologist within the Province of Alberta, John is also a Licensed Heartmath Provider, Certified Coherent Breathing Instructor, Mental Game Coach Professional, and is trained in Self-Regulation Therapy.
John’s “Mental Skills Program” utilizes groundbreaking HRV Biofeedback and Neurofeedback Techonology, enhancing a performers’s ability to stay focused, composed, and alert. John calls upon his clinical coaching expertise and personal experiences, as both a competitive athlete and coach, to teach athletes how to develop mental toughness skills like commitment, confidence, concentration, composure, consistency, competitiveness, courage, ‘coachability’, control, and communication-all necessary skills in achieving the winning edge. John’s Sports Psychology program focuses on improving thought processes to overcome self-limiting emotional and physical barriers, leading athletes to acquire a champions’ mindset and, utlimately, peak performance.

John has worked with a wide variety of organizations, individuals, and athletic teams, to inprove their performance. Business clients (Chartered Accountants of Alberta, Atco, University of Alberta, Hockey Alberta, Alberta Environment, The Canadian Military, L’ Arche Canada), Performing Artists ( Royal Winnipeg Ballet, Highland Troops, Highland Dancers), and Athletes ( CIS Golfers, CIS Volleyball, CIS Track and Field, CIS Football, CIS Hockey, Ottawa Senators, Edmonton Oilers, Saskatoon Blades, Kootenay Ice, Prince Albert Raiders, Equestrian riders, Judo, Squash, Table Tennis, Cross Country, Soccer, Baseball, Archery and Pistol Shooters ) have all benefited from Johns expertise.
How We Got Started
To provide advanced strategies to our clients to help them Perform on Demand Under Pressure


Jack Campbell has access to a lot of varied and nuanced professional support. It's a really good thing the Oilers have invested in additional support like Legace which is probably as much about reassuring Campbell's mental confidence as it is refining his technique. It takes a village to raise a goaltender

Everyone has a vested interest in Campbell getting an NHL level game back. As much as anyone that includes a guy that recommended him as the final piece for this team and its $25 million investment and 5 years.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Hold on, so the coach Campbell worked with over the off-season that resulted in Campbell playing so poorly he is now playing in the AHL, that's the guy that Campbell is asking to work with to improve? Am I missing something?

He had a very good preseason and a solid game against Nashville. If Legace is the guy he feels works the best with him then why not have him helping him now?

 

[Took a pill in Sbisa]

Not sure, it's definitely mental, maybe as the struggles mounted he abandoned everything he did in the summer, back to bad habits.

Doesn't really matter, imo, Campbell probably isn't salvageable

If his entire off-season was undone in 2 weeks, I think its worth asking how effective his off-season was.

He had a very good preseason and a solid game against Nashville. If Legace is the guy he feels works the best with him then why not have him helping him now?

Because I would expect more than a just a few good games (which weren't even regular season games) at the start of an 82 game season to consider his off-season training methods as effective.

 

[guymez]

I always liked Holtby and saw him a ton as a junior. Stevenson is well regarded and has consulted with the Oilers. Not sure if he's still. But for sure the mental aspect of goaltending position is the primary issue for Jack Campbell.

Big picture, Edmonton's actually been a pretty progressive Petri dish for goaltending coaching. The tracking method HeadTrajectoryTM by Lyle Mast and John Stevenson's Mental Skill Programs. Impressive stuff. People might not like to know that Schwartz has worked for a long time with both innovators.

Goaltenders are increasing working with a team of coaches to help their game mentally, technique, physical and training. Here's good article of Stevenson and Schwartz's long-term work with Carter Hart: A Thinking Man's Goaltender - Everett Silvertips

And a summary of Stevenson's specialized performance coaching and psychology under pinning it:

Zone Performance Psychology​

Sherwood Park, AB

John Stevenson specializes in the fields of Sport Psychology, Success, and Performance Psychology. John obtained his Master’s degree in Sports Psychology from Toronto’s York University in 1992, and subsequently obtained a second Master’s degree in Counselling Psychology from City University in Edmonton in 2006. In addition to his designation as a Registered Psychologist within the Province of Alberta, John is also a Licensed Heartmath Provider, Certified Coherent Breathing Instructor, Mental Game Coach Professional, and is trained in Self-Regulation Therapy.
John’s “Mental Skills Program” utilizes groundbreaking HRV Biofeedback and Neurofeedback Techonology, enhancing a performers’s ability to stay focused, composed, and alert. John calls upon his clinical coaching expertise and personal experiences, as both a competitive athlete and coach, to teach athletes how to develop mental toughness skills like commitment, confidence, concentration, composure, consistency, competitiveness, courage, ‘coachability’, control, and communication-all necessary skills in achieving the winning edge. John’s Sports Psychology program focuses on improving thought processes to overcome self-limiting emotional and physical barriers, leading athletes to acquire a champions’ mindset and, utlimately, peak performance.

John has worked with a wide variety of organizations, individuals, and athletic teams, to inprove their performance. Business clients (Chartered Accountants of Alberta, Atco, University of Alberta, Hockey Alberta, Alberta Environment, The Canadian Military, L’ Arche Canada), Performing Artists ( Royal Winnipeg Ballet, Highland Troops, Highland Dancers), and Athletes ( CIS Golfers, CIS Volleyball, CIS Track and Field, CIS Football, CIS Hockey, Ottawa Senators, Edmonton Oilers, Saskatoon Blades, Kootenay Ice, Prince Albert Raiders, Equestrian riders, Judo, Squash, Table Tennis, Cross Country, Soccer, Baseball, Archery and Pistol Shooters ) have all benefited from Johns expertise.
How We Got Started
To provide advanced strategies to our clients to help them Perform on Demand Under Pressure


Jack Campbell has access to a lot of varied and nuanced professional support. It's a really good thing the Oilers have invested in additional support like Legace which is probably as much about reassuring Campbell's mental confidence as it is refining his technique. It takes a village to raise a goaltender

Everyone has a vested interest in Campbell getting an NHL level game back. As much as anyone that includes a guy that recommended him as the final piece for this team and its $25 million investment and 5 years.

Interesting stuff. Thanks for posting the article.
So much goes into being a NHL starting goalie....I think we all take that for granted sometimes.

 

[powerserge]

Interesting stuff. Thanks for posting the article.
So much goes into being a NHL starting goalie....I think we all take that for granted sometimes.

No there isn't. Bail out the defense alot or a little, cruise when you have better defense. When you are winning it's 50% goal tending, when you are not it's 100% goal tending. Our goalies save above expected is abysmal, there's plenty of other teams that are mediocre defensively yet still get above average goal tending. All we need it a .900+ goalie then this would encourage the team and we would win. Even a Mike Smith 40 year old goalie that can hold the fort with the same defense. Be better, then the team will be better instead of gripping their sticks.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

If his entire off-season was undone in 2 weeks, I think its worth asking how effective his off-season was.



Because I would expect more than a just a few good games (which weren't even regular season games) at the start of an 82 game season to consider his off-season training methods as effective.

It's Jack Campbell man, he makes no sense in general lol

 

[DethOfDragnz]

I got a picture of Jack Campbell practicing for being in net!

 

[guymez]

No there isn't. Bail out the defense alot or a little, cruise when you have better defense. When you are winning it's 50% goal tending, when you are not it's 100% goal tending. Our goalies save above expected is abysmal, there's plenty of other teams that are mediocre defensively yet still get above average goal tending. All we need it a .900+ goalie then this would encourage the team and we would win. Even a Mike Smith 40 year old goalie that can hold the fort with the same defense. Be better, then the team will be better instead of gripping their sticks.

Well...this is an oversimplification if I ever saw one

So the quality of the defence in front of the goalie has no bearing on those numbers what so ever?

BTW... the post you responded to was about the level of work that goes into being an NHL starter.
Not sure if you meant to quote a different post.

 

[frag2]

Yes but Schwartz is still here and supposedly making the calls in terms of who plays so there's that too.

And Schwartz looooooooooves Skinner even when hes struggling lol

 

[apadilla]

Will be bought out in the summer, head somewhere like NYR or LA with good goalie coaches to rejuvenate his game and then post a .920 as a backup for a few years.

Hell, the guy had a .928 on the 18-19 Kings with Willie Desjardins as the head coach.

In a position where mental fortitude is key, Campbell's confidence is too fragile. He can be the backup, or play in non-pressure situations, but I don't think he'll ever be 'the guy'.

Cough!!! $$## 3 Yrs at 5 Mil per Cal Peterson Cough!!! %$%^&

Seriously though, I'm serious.

-------------------------------

Anyway, then Kings goalie coach Imoo (now a former coach as far as I know) was the guy who I've read was mostly responsible for Campbell's insurgence (sic) or resurgence in LA. Apparently, when he started with the Kings, Campbell was trying to mimic the Jet's Hellebuyck's (a hero?) playing style, and it wasn't working (a big understatement). So Imoo changed that. I read about how Imoo changed Campbell's goalie style. He told Campbell: "Dude, just be yourself!" Seriously, he was probably just as lost when he came to the Kings, as he has been with Edmonton.

Unfortunately, a year or two after Imoo left the Kings, Imoo moved to the Toronto Marlies to be their Goalie Coach, where i've read he sadly encountered some difficulties shortly after he started, and was let go.

Point of a not so serious thought: The Oilers, if they so choose, could secretly hire Imoo as a new minor league forward coach under a different name and language (i.e. maybe Slovic for example) and rapidly teach him the new language, and disguise him brilliantly, where he would not be recognizable to anyone, including Campbell, and secretly see if they can fool everyone. Then they can privately see how it works out at first, and go from there. I don't think that would cost them too much money.

On a serious note: I sure hope Imoo received any assistance he could of needed after leaving the Marlies. And if not yet, I hope he seriously considers it, for the benefit of everyone, including himself. And I also hope that anyone who was offended by any offensive remarks, if any, have it in their heart to forgive him, and make the most of their own lives. And I'm positive that any victim(s), if any, would of been successful at whatever they wanted to do in life as we know it, regardless. As someone who has met human beings of every star and strip, I'm so positive of this.

PS --> Sorry if I babbled a bit too much. I had a jult of energy when I started typing here. Thx. Be well everyone!

 

[apadilla]

Keep the faith!

 

[harpoon]

The spirited defense of Schwartz by a handful of posters is puzzling. Even if we accept that Campbell has never been a very reliable goalie (and his mental weakness is beyond Schwartz’s ability to change), and that on most nights Skinner has been the better option (thanks entirely to the expert tutelage of Schwartz), what does that prove?

This is the Oilers we are talking about. Does anyone think for a minute that a club that can’t stop hiring incompetent GMs and coaches, that can’t resist the lure of the unqualified nepotism hire, has somehow, against all odds, managed to get the position of goalie coach right for all these years? C’mon now. Schwartz is like so many of the other useless people hired by the Oilers over the years. He was convenient. He was local. He was connected to someone in the organization.

There is really only one explanation as to how he has managed to maintain his employment despite goaltending being literally the biggest deficiency on the team for most of his tenure, undeniably the main reason the club failed to advance past Vegas in the most recent season, and without doubt the most glaring black hole of suck to start this season. He is connected. All other incompetents (and even some who probably weren’t that terrible) have been fired. Schwartz magically survives. The idea that amidst all this incompetence he alone has somehow been out there doing excellent work for the goaltenders on this club doesn't pass the test of basic logic. In fact it’s so ridiculous it doesn’t even merit a moment’s consideration.

For most of his tenure he has survived by being anonymous. So far down the totem pole of shame that fans paid him little attention. But the noise surrounding the dumpster fire that is Oilers goaltending is growing louder. I believe it will soon become impossible for ownership to ignore.

 

[brentashton]

The spirited defense of Schwartz by a handful of posters is puzzling. Even if we accept that Campbell has never been a very reliable goalie (and his mental weakness is beyond Schwartz’s ability to change), and that on most nights Skinner has been the better option (thanks entirely to the expert tutelage of Schwartz), what does that prove?

This is the Oilers we are talking about. Does anyone think for a minute that a club that can’t stop hiring incompetent GMs and coaches, that can’t resist the lure of the unqualified nepotism hire, has somehow, against all odds, managed to get the position of goalie coach right for all these years? C’mon now. Schwartz is like so many of the other useless people hired by the Oilers over the years. He was convenient. He was local. He was connected to someone in the organization.

There is really only one explanation as to how he has managed to maintain his employment despite goaltending being literally the biggest deficiency on the team for most of his tenure, undeniably the main reason the club failed to advance past Vegas in the most recent season, and without doubt the most glaring black hole of suck to start this season. He is connected. All other incompetents (and even some who probably weren’t that terrible) have been fired. Schwartz magically survives. The idea that amidst all this incompetence he alone has somehow been out there doing excellent work for the goaltenders on this club doesn't pass the test of basic logic. In fact it’s so ridiculous it doesn’t even merit a moment’s consideration.

For most of his tenure he has survived by being anonymous. So far down the totem pole of shame that fans paid him little attention. But the noise surrounding the dumpster fire that is Oilers goaltending is growing louder. I believe it will soon become impossible for ownership to ignore.

It’s amazing he’s ran under the radar for so long. We can only hope you are right.

 

[guymez]

The spirited defense of Schwartz by a handful of posters is puzzling. Even if we accept that Campbell has never been a very reliable goalie (and his mental weakness is beyond Schwartz’s ability to change), and that on most nights Skinner has been the better option (thanks entirely to the expert tutelage of Schwartz), what does that prove?

This is the Oilers we are talking about. Does anyone think for a minute that a club that can’t stop hiring incompetent GMs and coaches, that can’t resist the lure of the unqualified nepotism hire, has somehow, against all odds, managed to get the position of goalie coach right for all these years? C’mon now. Schwartz is like so many of the other useless people hired by the Oilers over the years. He was convenient. He was local. He was connected to someone in the organization.

There is really only one explanation as to how he has managed to maintain his employment despite goaltending being literally the biggest deficiency on the team for most of his tenure, undeniably the main reason the club failed to advance past Vegas in the most recent season, and without doubt the most glaring black hole of suck to start this season. He is connected. All other incompetents (and even some who probably weren’t that terrible) have been fired. Schwartz magically survives. The idea that amidst all this incompetence he alone has somehow been out there doing excellent work for the goaltenders on this club doesn't pass the test of basic logic. In fact it’s so ridiculous it doesn’t even merit a moment’s consideration.

For most of his tenure he has survived by being anonymous. So far down the totem pole of shame that fans paid him little attention. But the noise surrounding the dumpster fire that is Oilers goaltending is growing louder. I believe it will soon become impossible for ownership to ignore.

I assume that this was a veiled response to my posts.

Let me set the record straight.
There is no 'spirited' defence of Schwartz. At least not from me.
Just a recognition of facts and a hesitation to join the 'fire Schwatrz" brigade. Better to dig a little deeper IMO rather than to just accept narratives from posters leading the fire Schwartz brigade.

You might agree that HF tends to generate support for specific narratives. Sometimes these narratives are accurate. Sometimes they arent. They are usually emotionally based though...an easy thing to latch onto for sure.

So lets dig a little deeper in terms the bolded.

Your conclusion about Schwartz (which is a popular conclusion on here) must therefore mean that the GMs have provided Schwartz with quality goalies and the only reason why the Oilers havent had a good starter is because Schwartz messed them up.
I cant name one goalie that the GM's have brought in that was a legit # 1 starting goalie that Schwartz messed up.
Can you?
Could the biggest issue be that the GM's have flat out failed at addressing this glaring need and that Schwartz has been asked to make chicken soup from chicken shit?

Sure looks that way to me.

Regarding the playoffs last season...its been said before but its worth repeating...Skinner was a rookie goalie last season. He was never supposed to be the #1 goalie and have to deal with all the pressure that goes along with that and he faded as the playoffs progressed. Thats what it looked like to me and in off season interviews Skinner admitted as much.
How could Schwartz have changed that?

Again...the real issue there was the starter the GM brought in was an unmitigated disaster. That forced Skinner to be used in a way that was never part of the plan.

So I think that all this wrath should be directed more appropriately at the GM...not the goalie coach.
If I am wrong about that I am certainly open to having my mind changed with some solid fact based info.

 

[Drivesaitl]

If his entire off-season was undone in 2 weeks, I think its worth asking how effective his off-season was.



Because I would expect more than a just a few good games (which weren't even regular season games) at the start of an 82 game season to consider his off-season training methods as effective.

I think it odd to say he was undone in 2 weeks when he was no different, and even a little better than the other goalie we've had in net. The reality is Campbell got 5 games and thats it, and thats really short runway in which to say he was undone.

I think fair comment could be made that a vet goalie could be afforded more chance to find game.

In anycase Campbell is an unknown. There is possibility of improvement or this project being abandoned. Given that we have 25M invested that we can't move I want the project being salvaged. I want dividends we could still get. Any org should seek out obtaining such.

 

[joestevens29]

I assume that this was a veiled response to my posts.

Let me set the record straight.
There is no 'spirited' defence of Schwartz. At least not from me.
Just a recognition of facts and a hesitation to join the 'fire Schwatrz" brigade. Better to dig a little deeper IMO rather than to just accept narratives from posters leading the fire Schwartz brigade.

You might agree that HF tends to generate support for specific narratives. Sometimes these narratives are accurate. Sometimes they arent. They are usually emotionally based though...an easy thing to latch onto for sure.

So lets dig a little deeper in terms the bolded.

Your conclusion about Schwartz (which is a popular conclusion on here) must therefore mean that the GMs have provided Schwartz with quality goalies and the only reason why the Oilers havent had a good starter is because Schwartz messed them up.
I cant name one goalie that the GM's have brought in that was a legit # 1 starting goalie that Schwartz messed up.
Can you?
Could the biggest issue be that the GM's have flat out failed at addressing this glaring need and that Schwartz has been asked to make chicken soup from chicken shit?

Sure looks that way to me.

Regarding the playoffs last season...its been said before but its worth repeating...Skinner was a rookie goalie last season. He was never supposed to be the #1 goalie and have to deal with all the pressure that goes along with that and he faded as the playoffs progressed. Thats what it looked like to me and in off season interviews Skinner admitted as much.
How could Schwartz have changed that?

Again...the real issue there was the starter the GM brought in was an unmitigated disaster. That forced Skinner to be used in a way that was never part of the plan.

So I think that all this wrath should be directed more appropriately at the GM...not the goalie coach.
If I am wrong about that I am certainly open to having my mind changed with some solid fact based info.

Keep in mind Schwartz is also apart of the scouting that brings goalies in, so if he is the one picking these guys or giving the green light then he is failing there.

Edit: He's also supposed to be helping the players in scouting opposition goalies too.

At the end of the day there is a lot that goes into most of the scouting, coaching and management roles. Only Holland, Woodcroft, Jackson(hopefully) and know Knobber truly would know what impact Schwartz is having.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I think it odd to say he was undone in 2 weeks when he was no different, and even a little better than the other goalie we've had in net. The reality is Campbell got 5 games and thats it, and thats really short runway in which to say he was undone.

I think fair comment could be made that a vet goalie could be afforded more chance to find game.

In anycase Campbell is an unknown. There is possibility of improvement or this project being abandoned. Given that we have 25M invested that we can't move I want the project being salvaged. I want dividends we could still get. Any org should seek out obtaining such.

How is he an unknown when he's stunk for 90% of his time here?

Hopefully he finds his game because our Cup aspirations depend on it but for the majority of his time here he's been probably the worst "starting" goalie this franchise has ever seen.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The spirited defense of Schwartz by a handful of posters is puzzling. Even if we accept that Campbell has never been a very reliable goalie (and his mental weakness is beyond Schwartz’s ability to change), and that on most nights Skinner has been the better option (thanks entirely to the expert tutelage of Schwartz), what does that prove?

This is the Oilers we are talking about. Does anyone think for a minute that a club that can’t stop hiring incompetent GMs and coaches, that can’t resist the lure of the unqualified nepotism hire, has somehow, against all odds, managed to get the position of goalie coach right for all these years? C’mon now. Schwartz is like so many of the other useless people hired by the Oilers over the years. He was convenient. He was local. He was connected to someone in the organization.

There is really only one explanation as to how he has managed to maintain his employment despite goaltending being literally the biggest deficiency on the team for most of his tenure, undeniably the main reason the club failed to advance past Vegas in the most recent season, and without doubt the most glaring black hole of suck to start this season. He is connected. All other incompetents (and even some who probably weren’t that terrible) have been fired. Schwartz magically survives. The idea that amidst all this incompetence he alone has somehow been out there doing excellent work for the goaltenders on this club doesn't pass the test of basic logic. In fact it’s so ridiculous it doesn’t even merit a moment’s consideration.

For most of his tenure he has survived by being anonymous. So far down the totem pole of shame that fans paid him little attention. But the noise surrounding the dumpster fire that is Oilers goaltending is growing louder. I believe it will soon become impossible for ownership to ignore.

Change I believe is coming, finally.

That Campbell requested and was granted Legace as a goalie coach DURING season is indication something is up.

That Woody and Campbell were fired is more indication of course, and Woody deferred to Schwartz on goalie recommendation, and that was confirmed during playoffs.

That Campbell is here in the first place at 25M recommendation of Schwartz has to raise some org eyebrows.

That KK even early in essentially calls out the GA saying that the players are feeling that everytime they make a mistake its in the back of the net to me was another bellwether statement. kudos to him as I've stated for calling out the Elephant in the livingroom.

Gone it would seem are the days where Skinner can be bad in playoffs and yet get started every game. Or be bad in game 2 this season giving up 4 goals in 16 SOG and LOSING the game the team in front of him dominated. With Skinner saying post game he thought he had played well. For the good of the club I think such leash or latitude is no longer being condoned. I would wonder how many of the players were pleased with Skinners statement after game 2. He didn't even take responsibility.

The last really sordid look was the goalie for the Heritage Classic being preordained, on the basis of Skinner having had pads made out specific to the event. A Skinner that had played poorly to that extent in the season and got the profile game anyway. All the deference needs to be gone and the spot actually competed for.

 

[mkatcherin00]

Yes, he is. 5x5 makes him a 25M asset


Oh I agree

Not a positive asset.

My rental property is an asset. It builds me equity. It is positive.

Jack Campbell, right now, is not a positive asset. He's a negative asset. Lol

 

[harpoon]

I assume that this was a veiled response to my posts.

Not exclusively, but thanks for the reply. I’ve noticed that the posters who think Skinner is doing a good job tend to be more supportive of Schwartz. I guess that would be natural. I don’t think Skinner is much of anything but hey, I said the same about Dubnyk and boy did he prove me wrong. So it’s clear I’m not very good at evaluating goaltending and because of that I’m trying to avoid making big proclamations about his NHL future. There are some smart posters here who seem to like Skinner. I’m prepared to recognize that they may be seeing things that I’m missing.

Better to dig a little deeper IMO rather than to just accept narratives from posters leading the fire Schwartz brigade.

Is that what you think I’m doing? Just falling in at the back of the mob? I thought my track record here was better than that. Oh well.

Your conclusion about Schwartz (which is a popular conclusion on here) must therefore mean that the GMs have provided Schwartz with quality goalies and the only reason why the Oilers havent had a good starter is because Schwartz messed them up.

Why does it mean that? I wonder if you read my post. My conclusion was very simple. Schwartz is highly unlikely to be any better than the long list of his superiors who have proven to be incapable of doing their jobs. And got fired. My theory goes that he has avoided a similar fate by virtue of the relative anonymity his lesser role has afforded him. And by brown nosing the right people.

I cant name one goalie that the GM's have brought in that was a legit # 1 starting goalie that Schwartz messed up.
Can you?

No I cannot. So what? ‘Legit #1 starters’ are like hens teeth. Did they become ‘legit #1 starters’ because of the great work of their NHL goalie coach? I wonder. What you are expecting is not realistic. First, as you say, the Oilers haven’t had a goalie like that in some years, and second, if the only evidence of Shwartz’s incompetence that you are willing to accept is ruining a ‘legit #1 starter’ you have set the bar so high that Shwartz will likely be employed for life in Edmonton.

How could Schwartz have changed that?

You probably know more about the duties of a goalie coach than I do, but it puzzles me to see posters (not only you, cause I’ve read similar comments elsewhere) giving this kind of free pass to Schwartz. He can’t help Skinner deal with the pressure of playoffs. He can’t help Campbell with his confidence issues. Looking at it from the point of view of a fan, that seems to be exactly his job description. Why can’t he do it? Why do so many goalies come to Edmonton and struggle with confidence and pressure? Without expecting miracles, shouldn’t a goalie coach at the pro level have some tips and tools at the ready for these sorts of situations? Or at the very least know other experts who do?

I’m done with Schwartz. He needs a good firing. And it can’t come soon enough. I’m fine with others feeling differently.

 

[guymez]

Not exclusively, but thanks for the reply. I’ve noticed that the posters who think Skinner is doing a good job tend to be more supportive of Schwartz. I guess that would be natural. I don’t think Skinner is much of anything but hey, I said the same about Dubnyk and boy did he prove me wrong. So it’s clear I’m not very good at evaluating goaltending and because of that I’m trying to avoid making big proclamations about his NHL future. There are some smart posters here who seem to like Skinner. I’m prepared to recognize that they may be seeing things that I’m missing.

I am right in there with you on Dubnyk. I had given up on him and that was obviously the wrong thing to do. I didnt know enough to form a proper opinion. I am just acknowledging the same with Schwartz. I dont know enough to get a sense of whether or not he is doing a good job. I do know that the goalies provided by Management havent been near good enough though.

Is that what you think I’m doing? Just falling in at the back of the mob? I thought my track record here was better than that. Oh well.

Not at all.
I was looking outside of your post when I made that statement. Thats not to say though that all of us cant be seduced by an opinion if it appeals to us in some way.
We have had many excellent discussions and I respect you as a poster and I hope that the feeling is mutual.

Why does it mean that? I wonder if you read my post. My conclusion was very simple. Schwartz is highly unlikely to be any better than the long list of his superiors who have proven to be incapable of doing their jobs. And got fired. My theory goes that he has avoided a similar fate by virtue of the relative anonymity his lesser role has afforded him. And by brown nosing the right people.

Okay...thanks for clarifying. My sense is that Management/coaches would be sensitive to feedback from the goalies and if there was something there then it would have been made known. To my understanding the goalie coach relationship is the most persona;l relationship between a player and a coach on the team. So its not unusual at all for the goalie coach to remain in place when the main coaching staff changes. So I guess I dont see his longevity as evidence of anything except an endorsement by the goalies that have been here.

No I cannot. So what? ‘Legit #1 starters’ are like hens teeth. Did they become ‘legit #1 starters’ because of the great work of their NHL goalie coach? I wonder. What you are expecting is not realistic. First, as you say, the Oilers haven’t had a goalie like that in some years, and second, if the only evidence of Shwartz’s incompetence that you are willing to accept is ruining a ‘legit #1 starter’ you have set the bar so high that Shwartz will likely be employed for life in Edmonton.

Well...certainly you would have to agree that the quality of the goalies that he is being asked to coach matters. That was my point. How can a fan look at the 'results' and not take into account the poor quality of the players he is having to work with?

You probably know more about the duties of a goalie coach than I do, but it puzzles me to see posters (not only you, cause I’ve read similar comments elsewhere) giving this kind of free pass to Schwartz. He can’t help Skinner deal with the pressure of playoffs. He can’t help Campbell with his confidence issues. Looking at it from the point of view of a fan, that seems to be exactly his job description. Why can’t he do it? Why do so many goalies come to Edmonton and struggle with confidence and pressure? Without expecting miracles, shouldn’t a goalie coach at the pro level have some tips and tools at the ready for these sorts of situations? Or at the very least know other experts who do?

I’m done with Schwartz. He needs a good firing. And it can’t come soon enough. I’m fine with others feeling differently.

Most of the information that have formed my opinions over the years have come from Kevin Woodley.
I think that he is one of the most knowledgeable goalie analysts out there. Woodley has made some very positive statements about Scharwtz so I tend to value his opinion over that of most frustrated fans on here.

I need to address the analytics though. One of my issues with analytics for goalies is that the HDSC stats are not granular enough and sometimes scoring chances get categorized incorrectly. I maintain that you have to watch the game and just going by numbers can be misleading. I would like to see the a breakdown of the shot quality models being used and if those models are ever adjusted. As far as I know things like screens and even significant puck movement are not even included and they are both important factors. Those are the 2 very things (poor gap control and poor at disrupting cross seam passes) that were in play defensively for the Oilers most of this season so far. That (and the fact that he is so far a misused rookie goalie) is why I was tending to give Skinner a little more slack than most posters.

In any event I have seen some spurious claims being made about Schwartz and virtually none of it has any substance to it.

I have no horse in this race at all (not a fan...not a detractor) but I am not going to form an opinion on if someone should lose their job on a poorly supported claim of incompetence.

Thats where I stand.

 

[guymez]

Keep in mind Schwartz is also apart of the scouting that brings goalies in, so if he is the one picking these guys or giving the green light then he is failing there.

Edit: He's also supposed to be helping the players in scouting opposition goalies too.

At the end of the day there is a lot that goes into most of the scouting, coaching and management roles. Only Holland, Woodcroft, Jackson(hopefully) and know Knobber truly would know what impact Schwartz is having.

Do we know this to be true? I have never heard anything about Holland involving the goalie coach before making a trade.
Not say it doesnt happen just that I havent seen anything about this being the case at all.

 

[Spawn]

Do we know this to be true? I have never heard anything about Holland involving the goalie coach before making a trade.
Not say it doesnt happen just that I havent seen anything about this being the case at all.

Well, here it is. In asking around, the Oilers like Campbell better than Kuemper. They feel like Campbell’s a more consistent netminder, his highs in performance are higher and his rebound control is better. Goaltending coach Dustin Schwartz studied hours and hours worth of video and was a key factor in the recommendation of Campbell over Kuemper. The Oilers were also more concerned about injuries with Kuemper than with Campbell.

Oilers mailbag: Missing pieces? Trade strategy? Breakout player?

Plus, the likelihood of the Oilers playing in an outdoor game soon and building out the scouting staff.

theathletic.com