Offseason GDT III

[YP44]

Lucic will sign in Edmonton.

I hope he signed a 7x7 deal if he does not re-sign here.

 

[BigKing]

do we know for sure Williams would have signed the same deal he did with the caps to stay in LA?

Lucic cap hit to the kings was $3.25M this year Williams was the same...I know the player I thought LA had a better chance to win the cup with. I thought Lucic was a huge improvement over Williams. As much as I love Williams he was mostly a 3rd liner in Washington this year.

Obviously things didn't work out, but you can't steal 2nd with your foot on 1st.

Assume he signs the same deal he did with Washington.

Not to simplify things but I will: this year's team finished with seven more points than '15 based solely on the change to 3 v 3 overtime and not because of Milan Lucic over Justin Williams.

They won one more playoff game than the '15 team that missed the playoffs.

You may not be able to steal 2nd with your foot planted on first, but you can't steal 2nd if you are already caught stealing (Sekera). DL's been thrown out 2x now and he is walking back to a dugout telephone with fewer arms to call in from the pen.

At this point, the only advantage not signing Williams and doing the Lucic thing is that Williams cap space is available. Let's hope something good happens with it.

 

[JKG33]

You don't have to be "butt hurt" to sit here today and wonder if keeping Williams for two years as opposed to bleeding assets for one year of Lucic would of been a better play.

I think Lucic is a legit Top 6 player and does offer more than Williams at this point. I don't want to be painted with this butt hurt brush though for thinking the team would be better off if they just kept Williams and the assets used for Lucic: especially the first rounder. Hurts even more to know you are letting Williams walk but you can't get anything for him at the deadline since you are "all in" but wind up missing the playoffs anyways.

If Lucic walks, that is a really poor use of assets. Might be a poor use of assets (cap space) to bring him back as well depending on the cap and what he will ultimately agree to.

Agree to disagree that this team would of been pretty equal with Williams instead of Lucic this past season. We can both agree, however, that this team is going to be worse without either of them next season.

Also disagree about Lucic being good in the playoffs. He had three assists but he also was pretty much responsible for at least two goals against--including the GWG in Game 2--and took a selfish penalty deep in the 3rd of a tied game in Game 3. I like the guy, but let's not try to paint his playoff performance as good. Agree he is being raked over the coals by people because they don't have much loyalty to him since he has only been here for a year and they don't see him coming back so the pitchforks are out, but don't over-correct their mistake by trying to say he was good in the playoffs.

All things considered, keeping Williams would've been a far better plan. You don't waste the assets, and you don't have the conundrum about signing Lucic or not this summer. People will claim hindsight and everything like that about my post, but I hated the Lucic trade from day 1.

Lets say Dean simply doesn't trade for Lucic and re-signs Williams. As a result:
The Kings get a good prospect with their 2015 1st
Jones is still traded, likely to Buffalo instead of Lehner for that late 1st. Another good prospect for the Kings. But even more importantly San Jose doesn't get a stud goalie. All the goalies traded last summer (Talbot, Lehner, Lack, etc.) aren't at Jones' level. (As an aside, if that article is true and Dean knew SJ was going to get Jones that makes the Lucic trade even worse)

Now the real big what-ifs:
Maybe Dean beats Washington's offer for Oshie. Or...
Adding an additional 2 first round prospects to the pool means more expendable assets for the deadline. Maybe then the Kings get a Ladd or Byfuglien or Hamhuis as a mid season upgrade. All of which would've had to be cheaper than the two 1sts and Miller for Lucic.

As for Brown vs Lucic, Lucic is far and away the better player. Its not even close. Thats taking into consideration how awful Lucic was these playoffs. That said theres no way in hell I sign Lucic. The trade was awful, but its at the point now where Dean needs to admit he ****ed up, cut their loses and move on.

I just pray that come September neither Lucic nor Brown are on the roster.

 

[Trolfoli]

And in 2-3 years when said contract for Lucic is an anchor then what?

That's a different problem.

Keeping Williams would have been the better move if the plan was to tank. A lot of people here are remembering the Williams of the past and not the current Williams. Last playoff run with him, Williams was responsible for giving up 2 shorthanded goals. He was a liability on defense. In the offensive zone one of his favorite moves was to throw bouncing pucks at the defense handcuffing them and putting the D in 50:50 puck battles, that result in a breakaway, if they lose. His time with the team was done. If the Kings had the roster to shelter Williams as a depth scorer he would have been fine. The Kings needed someone (Lucic) to be a top line wing and go out and do the heavy lifting.

Also if Williams & Brown were both here last year, there's a good chance they both play in the top 6, and only one can be demoted to the 3rd line at a time. We've seen the offense... it's ranked 25+ out of 30.

End of story, Williams wasn't worth a $3M (no assets) to sign. Lombardi made the ring call not bringing him back.

 

[Trolfoli]

So with letting Lucic walk, the Kings not having enough cap space to patch all the holes to be competitive, the young guys coming up may need 1-2 years to sort it out, and a 1st round next year, are the Kings going to tank next season?

 

[KingCanadain1976]

A team with Doughty Muzzin Kopitar Toffoli Carter Quick does not "tank" a season This last season was one of our best ever point wise. This chicken little stuff (the sky is falling) from posters is getting old fast. We lost to the stanley cup finalists not some crap team in this years playoffs.

 

[BigKing]

That's a different problem.

Keeping Williams would have been the better move if the plan was to tank. A lot of people here are remembering the Williams of the past and not the current Williams. Last playoff run with him, Williams was responsible for giving up 2 shorthanded goals. He was a liability on defense. In the offensive zone one of his favorite moves was to throw bouncing pucks at the defense handcuffing them and putting the D in 50:50 puck battles, that result in a breakaway, if they lose. His time with the team was done. If the Kings had the roster to shelter Williams as a depth scorer he would have been fine. The Kings needed someone (Lucic) to be a top line wing and go out and do the heavy lifting.

Also if Williams & Brown were both here last year, there's a good chance they both play in the top 6, and only one can be demoted to the 3rd line at a time. We've seen the offense... it's ranked 25+ out of 30.

End of story, Williams wasn't worth a $3M (no assets) to sign. Lombardi made the ring call not bringing him back.

I'm not remembering the Williams of pre-2015 but the one from 2015 who didn't look as good as before: just like some other forwards from the '14 team including Kopitar.

While still not remembering the Williams of the past, I will say that the last playoff run with him resulted in a little Conn Smythe action and a SC banner up in the rafters. Not sure what your comment about 2 shorthanded goals is referencing.

If the right call was to not bring him back, which I'm not totally against, then using the assets for one year of Lucic was not the right call either and I like Lucic. Kings just weren't in a good position to make that move: especially after the Sekera disaster.

The right call may have been to keep the powder dry and let him walk and not swing for Lucic. DL would have been torn to shreds though for going into the season without either of them but, hindsight or not, he's getting torn to shreds now regardless and the organization is in a worse spot than before draft day 2015.

 

[Fishhead]

JW was kind of a mess this year. Lost defensively for sure. Numbers increased but going from the Kings to the Caps that's completely expected. He seemed to lack a bit of that fire he always has.

 

[kings11]

That's a different problem.

Keeping Williams would have been the better move if the plan was to tank. A lot of people here are remembering the Williams of the past and not the current Williams. Last playoff run with him, Williams was responsible for giving up 2 shorthanded goals. He was a liability on defense. In the offensive zone one of his favorite moves was to throw bouncing pucks at the defense handcuffing them and putting the D in 50:50 puck battles, that result in a breakaway, if they lose. His time with the team was done. If the Kings had the roster to shelter Williams as a depth scorer he would have been fine. The Kings needed someone (Lucic) to be a top line wing and go out and do the heavy lifting.

Also if Williams & Brown were both here last year, there's a good chance they both play in the top 6, and only one can be demoted to the 3rd line at a time. We've seen the offense... it's ranked 25+ out of 30.

End of story, Williams wasn't worth a $3M (no assets) to sign. Lombardi made the ring call not bringing him back.

Dean would also be correct for not bring back ML at $6 per when that money would be better used signing a Hamhuis and adding to the bottom 6.. I do agree that trading for Lucic was the correct call since we have a Cup window open, however i think he underestimated the importance of losing a Voynov or Mitchell who honestly where never close to being replaced... Signing Dan Hamhuis and working in a kid either Gravel or Forbort would be best for the team....

 

[deeshamrock]

Lucic will sign in Edmonton.

Well Chiarelli drafted him and was always a fan of his game so that could be why the Oilers are being mentioned as a landing spot. And playing with McDavid would appeal to him, and that team should be better over the next 6 of 7 years.

 

[KopitarFAN]

A team with Doughty Muzzin Kopitar Toffoli Carter Quick does not "tank" a season This last season was one of our best ever point wise. This chicken little stuff (the sky is falling) from posters is getting old fast. We lost to the stanley cup finalists not some crap team in this years playoffs.

While it gets old, I understand, i'd rather be bad than be a 1st round exit again. Right now, that's all they are, maybe if McNabb takes a big step forward and Gravel is allowed to play keeping liabilities like Greene and Scuderi out of the lineup, and some of the young guys in the bottom six contribute (Mersch, Dowd etc) they can take that step.

 

[KingCanadain1976]

While it gets old, I understand, i'd rather be bad than be a 1st round exit again. Right now, that's all they are, maybe if McNabb takes a big step forward and Gravel is allowed to play keeping liabilities like Greene and Scuderi out of the lineup, and some of the young guys in the bottom six contribute (Mersch, Dowd etc) they can take that step.

Well i disagree strongly. Making the playoffs is always better then not. As a long time king fan we had alot of years not making it. I am getting tired of reading the chicken little stuff all the time. Its like if we don't win the cup we suck. The kings had a great season we went into the playoffs with martinez greene nolan and gaborik hurt. If we had them healthy who knows what would have happened. As 2012 proved any team can win if they get in.Its only a matter of getting hot at the right time.

 

[KingsFan7824]

So with letting Lucic walk, the Kings not having enough cap space to patch all the holes to be competitive, the young guys coming up may need 1-2 years to sort it out, and a 1st round next year, are the Kings going to tank next season?

I'd call it wait and see more than tanking. If the young guys take a step, and the Kings look like a solid enough team by the deadline, maybe do something. If it's a struggle, and the young guys go up and down, and they're fighting for a playoff spot, hold onto that 1st rounder, and let things play out.

Dean would also be correct for not bring back ML at $6 per when that money would be better used signing a Hamhuis and adding to the bottom 6.. I do agree that trading for Lucic was the correct call since we have a Cup window open, however i think he underestimated the importance of losing a Voynov or Mitchell who honestly where never close to being replaced... Signing Dan Hamhuis and working in a kid either Gravel or Forbort would be best for the team....

I would doubt Lombardi of all people underestimated the importance of Voynov or Mitchell. It's just that guys like that aren't out there to get. Nobody is giving you a young top 4 right handed defenseman on a good contract. Not without trading something very good to get that. Guys like Muzzin and Martinez are now making the money that guys like Mitchell and Regehr used to make. What the Kings haven't had, for any number of reasons, is the cheap versions of Martinez, Voynov, Muzzin, etc. As you say, they need Gravel and/or Forbort to force themselves onto the team.

 

[Trolfoli]

I'm not remembering the Williams of pre-2015 but the one from 2015 who didn't look as good as before: just like some other forwards from the '14 team including Kopitar.

While still not remembering the Williams of the past, I will say that the last playoff run with him resulted in a little Conn Smythe action and a SC banner up in the rafters. Not sure what your comment about 2 shorthanded goals is referencing.

If the right call was to not bring him back, which I'm not totally against, then using the assets for one year of Lucic was not the right call either and I like Lucic. Kings just weren't in a good position to make that move: especially after the Sekera disaster.

The right call may have been to keep the powder dry and let him walk and not swing for Lucic. DL would have been torn to shreds though for going into the season without either of them but, hindsight or not, he's getting torn to shreds now regardless and the organization is in a worse spot than before draft day 2015.

The Conn Smythe was a lifetime achievement award for Williams.

The 2 shorthanded goals.
-PP against Chicago, face off at the offensive blue line. Kings wins face off. Williams sits on the blue line, can't figure out if he wants to pass it, skate it, dump it, and he coughs it up for a Toews short hander.
-Williams has the puck in the offensive zone (LW) on the PP. He is frustrated he can't make a play, chucks a bouncing puck to the defenders backhand. Didn't bother to look up. It's the PP the defenders had changed sides. Puck bounces over Voynov's stick on the backhand. Voynov loses the puck battle at the Kings bench. Boyle gets a short handed goal off a partial deflection from Doughty trying to get a stick on the puck. The whole sequence started with a Williams special, bouncing pass to the point.

The Lucic trade worked out great. He brought a physical game, was great offensively and stuck up for teammates.

Was it good for the long run? If he's not brought back it seems a little shortsighted on Lombardi's part. Then Lombardi was still in "all in" mode. Lombardi seems to have shifted since the trade was made.

I'd rather have a GM that takes a swing for a homerun then one that's afraid when it's time to bat.

 

[KopitarFAN]

Well i disagree strongly. Making the playoffs is always better then not. As a long time king fan we had alot of years not making it. I am getting tired of reading the chicken little stuff all the time. Its like if we don't win the cup we suck. The kings had a great season we went into the playoffs with martinez greene nolan and gaborik hurt. If we had them healthy who knows what would have happened. As 2012 proved any team can win if they get in.Its only a matter of getting hot at the right time.

Come on, let's not compare the 2012 team to any low seed since or in the cap era before them, that Defense was unfair and will never be re-created, in the end, that was a very good team from the time Darryl took over (.622 point pct) through seasons end, 8th or not.

Meanwhile, we saw this years team from the moment they clinched get exposed time and again, and for whatever reason their was no flipping the switch when the first round started, yes, the Martinez injury was certainly a factor, but they didn't seem to be in the same league as SJ for long stretches of each game.

I guess I just don't think they are anything but a quick exit in 5 or 6 games as constructed, barring some major development from young players.

 

[BigKing]

The Conn Smythe was a lifetime achievement award for Williams.

The 2 shorthanded goals.
-PP against Chicago, face off at the offensive blue line. Kings wins face off. Williams sits on the blue line, can't figure out if he wants to pass it, skate it, dump it, and he coughs it up for a Toews short hander.
-Williams has the puck in the offensive zone (LW) on the PP. He is frustrated he can't make a play, chucks a bouncing puck to the defenders backhand. Didn't bother to look up. It's the PP the defenders had changed sides. Puck bounces over Voynov's stick on the backhand. Voynov loses the puck battle at the Kings bench. Boyle gets a short handed goal off a partial deflection from Doughty trying to get a stick on the puck. The whole sequence started with a Williams special, bouncing pass to the point.

The Lucic trade worked out great. He brought a physical game, was great offensively and stuck up for teammates.

Was it good for the long run? If he's not brought back it seems a little shortsighted on Lombardi's part. Then Lombardi was still in "all in" mode. Lombardi seems to have shifted since the trade was made.

I'd rather have a GM that takes a swing for a homerun then one that's afraid when it's time to bat.

No worries with the "all-in" and wanting the GM that does that, but up to a point. DL went all-in with consecutive 1st round draft picks and wound up with 1 playoff victory out of it so it definitely wasn't good for the long run and, in hindsight, it wasn't great for the short-term as the final result is still how moves are judged. Of course, Lombardi seems to have moved from this "all-in" mentality which seems to be a condemnation of the Lucic trade, as is his new unwillingness to sign Lucic long-term.

As for Williams, I'm not even close to a homer on him but it's funny to me to call a guy out for two mistakes during a Smythe run.

I mean, Lucic couldn't handle that McNabb pass that led to the first goal against in Game 3. Bad pass by McNabb but Lucic looked like a 4th liner trying to handle it. Should we talk about the "Lucic Special" which is the blind backhand pass toward center ice from out of the defensive zone that got picked off numerous times this year?

I like Lucic. Buyers remorse kicks in though when your expensive toy breaks after one year and the warranty is expired.

 

[KingCanadain1976]

Come on, let's not compare the 2012 team to any low seed since or in the cap era before them, that Defense was unfair and will never be re-created, in the end, that was a very good team from the time Darryl took over (.622 point pct) through seasons end, 8th or not.

Meanwhile, we saw this years team from the moment they clinched get exposed time and again, and for whatever reason their was no flipping the switch when the first round started, yes, the Martinez injury was certainly a factor, but they didn't seem to be in the same league as SJ for long stretches of each game.

I guess I just don't think they are anything but a quick exit in 5 or 6 games as constructed, barring some major development from young players.

i think your wrong this team if healthy would have done a lot better imo. alec was a huge reason I also think greene would have helped if healthy Not to mention scoring of gaborik at full health We played a cup finalist I think sj just plain out played us Give them the credit they are due. This team is not as bad as people are trying to make us out to be. I am just tired of seeing this board continusly running down our team I just guess i want to see some pride as king fans This is a golden age of kings hockey and most in here poo poo it regularly

 

[yankeeking]

don't count on any sense of loyalty, I have started to believe that some of these guys are the bandwaggoners that winning draws out or they are too young or too new to sports to see that this isn't their video game, sometimes it just doesn't happen for good teams or even so so teams . Its funny losing in the first round this year proves how bad a GM DL is yet the assets he traded for sekera and lucic would not have helped us win yet they go on and on about losing those picks, well those picks and prospects traded are years away from the nhl and may never see serious ice time who gives a **** he was trying to make the team better like he did in 12 and 14 it just didn't workout, hell we had schenn and scuds on the ice and both were still better choices at this time than miller and mckeon would have been . T wo years ago monday we won the cup but from what you read here it was generations ago , no wonder there are fewer and fewer of us that were here during the rebuild decades, let me tell you guys it is still better to get outted in the first round then to be elimimated in march

 

[danish kingsfan]

It wasn't a mistake trading for Lucic in my book, not trading for a top 4 defenseman however was, the problem here probably lied with few tradable assets.

That leads us back to the 14/15 season when all kinds of nasty things were thrown at us, being realistic here would've been the better option, i honestly hoped for DL to sell at that tdl rather than buying, that could've given us the assets we needed this last season.

As for the 16/17 season I think its best to wait with trading for a top 4 d-man (not a rental this time please) until mid season, prices might have dropped a bit because of the expansion draft (if it happens) so signing/trading for a third line center and trimming some Bottom 6 fat is imo the way to go this offseason.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

I really hate the auto-defense of "well, you must not be a REAL fan..." if you criticize the team these days. How sensitive are some of you guys?

We should be criticizing this franchise. Through bad management, bad play, or plain bad luck, they've imploded since 2014, plummeting from Cup-WCF-Cup to No Playoffs-First Round Exit. At least Chicago made a series out of their quick exit this year.

Dean assembled one of the best post lockout teams, had them all locked up long term, in their prime, and it all blew up in his face. Yes, some of that was out of his control, but not all of it. He deserves as much criticism as Brown or Kopitar of any other key cog to this franchise. They all do. They've been a ****ing embarrassment for two years in a row now. Wake up and smell the coffee. And for those hanging their hat on regular season success, congrats, now we sound like Ducks fans. I could give a **** less about the regular season.

Don't create an echo chamber here, where everything management touches turns to gold and nothing can be questioned despite the house burning down around them. They've made mistakes. And we, as sports fans, have the right to discuss those mistakes.

 

[YP44]

While it gets old, I understand, i'd rather be bad than be a 1st round exit again. Right now, that's all they are, maybe if McNabb takes a big step forward and Gravel is allowed to play keeping liabilities like Greene and Scuderi out of the lineup, and some of the young guys in the bottom six contribute (Mersch, Dowd etc) they can take that step.

do you remember the what our team was like a decade ago?

 

[YP44]

The Conn Smythe was a lifetime achievement award for Williams.

The 2 shorthanded goals.
-PP against Chicago, face off at the offensive blue line. Kings wins face off. Williams sits on the blue line, can't figure out if he wants to pass it, skate it, dump it, and he coughs it up for a Toews short hander.
-Williams has the puck in the offensive zone (LW) on the PP. He is frustrated he can't make a play, chucks a bouncing puck to the defenders backhand. Didn't bother to look up. It's the PP the defenders had changed sides. Puck bounces over Voynov's stick on the backhand. Voynov loses the puck battle at the Kings bench. Boyle gets a short handed goal off a partial deflection from Doughty trying to get a stick on the puck. The whole sequence started with a Williams special, bouncing pass to the point.

The Lucic trade worked out great. He brought a physical game, was great offensively and stuck up for teammates.

Was it good for the long run? If he's not brought back it seems a little shortsighted on Lombardi's part. Then Lombardi was still in "all in" mode. Lombardi seems to have shifted since the trade was made.

I'd rather have a GM that takes a swing for a homerun then one that's afraid when it's time to bat.

I think the Conne Smythe was awarded to Williams because of how he preformed in elimination games. He deserved it for his play in the 2014 playoffs, not because of a anything he had done previously. Personllay he was not my #1 choice for the conne ( Kopitar was) Williams was a very solid pick.

The rest of this post I agree with.

 

[Chruceg]

I really hate the auto-defense of "well, you must not be a REAL fan..." if you criticize the team these days. How sensitive are some of you guys?

We should be criticizing this franchise. Through bad management, bad play, or plain bad luck, they've imploded since 2014, plummeting from Cup-WCF-Cup to No Playoffs-First Round Exit. At least Chicago made a series out of their quick exit this year.

Dean assembled one of the best post lockout teams, had them all locked up long term, in their prime, and it all blew up in his face. Yes, some of that was out of his control, but not all of it. He deserves as much criticism as Brown or Kopitar of any other key cog to this franchise. They all do. They've been a ****ing embarrassment for two years in a row now. Wake up and smell the coffee. And for those hanging their hat on regular season success, congrats, now we sound like Ducks fans. I could give a **** less about the regular season.

Don't create an echo chamber here, where everything management touches turns to gold and nothing can be questioned despite the house burning down around them. They've made mistakes. And we, as sports fans, have the right to discuss those mistakes.

I think you need to take a minute. Nobody here is saying management or players are beyond criticism. What is being said is your hyperbole is unnecessary. You started out just fine and your final paragraph is fine. However, your third paragraph has four solid sentences to start ... then you go off the deep end. To call this team an "embarrassment" is ludicrous. Edmonton is an embarrassment. The Kings of the mid 00's were embarrassments. Missing the playoffs due to fluky seasons from Calgary and Winnipeg is extremely frustrating but not an embarrassment. Trading for Brent (expletive deleted) Sopel and Mark (expletive deleted) Parrish in an already lost season is an embarrassment. Trading for Sekera and Lucic both make sense at the time of the trades.

You are certainly free to criticize but others are certainly free to defend the logic of the trades.

 

[YP44]

don't count on any sense of loyalty, I have started to believe that some of these guys are the bandwaggoners that winning draws out or they are too young or too new to sports to see that this isn't their video game, sometimes it just doesn't happen for good teams or even so so teams . Its funny losing in the first round this year proves how bad a GM DL is yet the assets he traded for sekera and lucic would not have helped us win yet they go on and on about losing those picks, well those picks and prospects traded are years away from the nhl and may never see serious ice time who gives a **** he was trying to make the team better like he did in 12 and 14 it just didn't workout, hell we had schenn and scuds on the ice and both were still better choices at this time than miller and mckeon would have been . T wo years ago monday we won the cup but from what you read here it was generations ago , no wonder there are fewer and fewer of us that were here during the rebuild decades, let me tell you guys it is still better to get outted in the first round then to be elimimated in march

I was having a beer with a buddy who is a leaf fan. In his lifetime he has never seen his team win the cup. There are several who never get to in their lifetimes, and I consider myself lucky I have seen it twice.

Now that does not mean fans are not allowed to criticize or try and think of ways to make the team better (pretty sure that's what this board is all about). However comments like "would rather finish last than be out in the first round" are just asinine

 

[LAKings88]

I have accepted that we as fans got to see a few exceptional years and two championships.

I have also realized that I will enjoy this team no matter what the outcome of a season.

If Lucic doesn't resign, I wouldn't be surprised if DL tries to fill holes with lesser lights.