GDT: Offseason GDT II

[Kingsfan1]

elevates gravel too quick too fast. he would be going against top competition in all situations being paired with Drew. Meaning Doughty would have to be cautious to allow for gravel to learn and develop.
Also where is McNabb?

I believe Gravel can handle the load and develop faster playing alongside Doughty. Like Muzzin did. I forgot Mcnabb he would slot in for Forbort. But the cap works and its very doable. I think i like the idea of trading Martinez + King + whatever needed for top 4 RHD and signing a bottom pairing guy via UFA.

 

[funky]

I am still wanting Yandle and for trading Martinez

Reason - If we could land Yandle he is a true top pairing guy that can play 25 mins a game with Doughty

He has defensive shortcomings but can run a PP, something no other Dman on our team can.

Muzzin runs second tier of Dman we don't need an offensive right shot guy, just a defensively capable guy

Martinez is not a true number 3, more of a 4/5 on a great team. He would be a valuable trade piece. Yandle at 2 mil more a year is a great deal. He costs no prospects, he doesn't cost Toffoli.

I like Lucic but am very scared of his regression. I would like to go back to basics and build from backend, strong down the middle.

1C - Kopitar
2C - Carter
3C - Helm
4C - Andreoff
1RW - Toffoli
2RW - Gaborik
3RW - Brown - keep 1 more year and pray for an expansion pick, or buy out in 17/18
4RW - Dowd
1LW - Versteeg
2LW - Pearson
3LW - Mersch
4LW- Clifford

Bench - Shore - versatility
Bench - Nolan - Heavy

D - Doughty, Yandle,
D- Muzzin, McNabb
D - Gravel, Forbert,

Goalie - Quick, Budaj

My question is who would be the better combo at roughly the same price

Lucic @6, Martinez @ 4, King@ 1.95
Versteeg @3, Yandle @6 , Helm @3

Either way puts us at 70.1 mil and gives us Martinez, King, and any player on the above roster to be traded for an upgrade.

 

[KingsFan7824]

elevates gravel too quick too fast. he would be going against top competition in all situations being paired with Drew. Meaning Doughty would have to be cautious to allow for gravel to learn and develop.

One thing that's a little weird are the declarations we as fans make about the development of players. People who get paid a ton to scout these players for the draft don't even know for sure. Elevates Gravel too quick, too fast. That may or may not be accurate. Nobody knows that for sure. He's 24 now. Mitchell, who people have hoped he can become, was 24 in his first full NHL season. Muzzin was like 23, maybe 24.

Kempe isn't ready. Maybe. Or, a lot can change in a few months, and he's on the team come October.

If Gravel was there, Doughty would just have to, as the old saying goes, do his own job. If Gravel can't hang in there, then someone else will be there. If Doughty does his job, instead of trying to do two, everyone is better off.

What's the worst that can happen? The Kings struggle to make the playoffs/struggle in the playoffs? We've already crossed that bridge. The Kings are going to need someone from Ontario to exceed expectations next year with their cap situation. Might as well be Gravel. Forbort, Mersch, Dowd, Kempe, any and all of them are more than welcome to do it.

 

[Cook24]

Uh oh. Umberger likely to be bought out. With that Philly connection, wouldn't surprise me to see him brought in as a cheap 3rd line center.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Isn't Umberger a LW? I forget.

Would have liked him a few years back, definitely played Kings style hockey.

Not sure how his play is now, he was never in the lineup when I saw them

 

[Reaper45]

Here's my off season game plan.

You start off by re-signing Lucic and doing your damnedest to get rid of Gaborik. We know no one is taking Brown and if he has a good year in the top 6, bam, expansion draft.

Lucic-Kopitar-Brown
Pearson-Carter-Toffoli


The bottom 6 needs a lot of work but it's doable.

Shore is an AHL'er, hasta la vista baby. Maybe move him to wing? Dowd is older, but already looked better. Nolan, Clifford and Andreoff are redundant and since Clifford is the most expensive, Nolan is coming off back surgery and no one will take him and Andreoff had a good year so I keep Nolan and Andreoff.

Mersch and King big slow LW'ers with scoring touch. King is attractive because he's a known commodity. King gets dealt with Shore for a Dman or a 3rd line center

Lewis is a UFA and I'd love to keep him but he's gonna get paid.

Mersch-XXX-Kempe
Andreoff-Dowd-XXX
Nolan

Call up Kempe. Give him time on the 3rd line with a decent center and Mersch.

Lucic-Kopitar-Brown
Pearson-Carter-Toffoli
Mersch-XXX-Kempe
Andreoff-Dowd-XXX
Nolan

The d is something I'm still brainstorming on.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I feel as though so many around here are panicking a bit too much about acquiring another expensive blueliner and aren't seeing the forest from the trees.

Step back and pay attention to some of the hockey being played right now. Notice the bluelines of some of the remaining teams in the playoffs? No? Let's observe...

Penguins blueline: Letang, Daley, Maatta, Dumoulin, Lovejoy, Cole
Lightning blueline: Hedman, Coburn, Garrison, Carle, Sustr, Koekkoek, Witkowski
Stars blueline: Klingberg, Goligoski, Demers, Russell, Oduya, Johns

They're not exactly dripping with a ton of depth on their blueline either.

The Kings don't need Yandle, forget about him. They need a healthy blueline and one more guy who can knock McNabb down to a lesser role. The Kings don't have to waste any resources or tangible assets to add such a player.

Doughty, Muzzin and Martinez is a solid top 3. They are missing someone to round out that top 4. They also need to start giving an opportunity to a Gravel and/or Forbort who could perform just as well as a stiff like McNabb.

Not sure what'll happen to Greene, whether he'll be ready for next season or if he'll be injured long term again, but they need to be more mobile and having two of Greene and McNabb in the lineup is asking for trouble. One is enough. We saw the struggles with three stiffs in McNabb, Schenn and Scuderi.

 

[Trolfoli]

I feel as though so many around here are panicking a bit too much about acquiring another expensive blueliner and aren't seeing the forest from the trees.

Step back and pay attention to some of the hockey being played right now. Notice the bluelines of some of the remaining teams in the playoffs? No? Let's observe...

Penguins blueline: Letang, Daley, Maatta, Dumoulin, Lovejoy, Cole
Lightning blueline: Hedman, Coburn, Garrison, Carle, Sustr, Koekkoek, Witkowski
Stars blueline: Klingberg, Goligoski, Demers, Russell, Oduya, Johns

They're not exactly dripping with a ton of depth on their blueline either.

The Kings don't need Yandle, forget about him. They need a healthy blueline and one more guy who can knock McNabb down to a lesser role. The Kings don't have to waste any resources or tangible assets to add such a player.

Doughty, Muzzin and Martinez is a solid top 3. They are missing someone to round out that top 4. They also need to start giving an opportunity to a Gravel and/or Forbort who could perform just as well as a stiff like McNabb.

Not sure what'll happen to Greene, whether he'll be ready for next season or if he'll be injured long term again, but they need to be more mobile and having two of Greene and McNabb in the lineup is asking for trouble. One is enough. We saw the struggles with three stiffs in McNabb, Schenn and Scuderi.

I'd classify all those teams as offense first, as they can't really rely on the defense. TB has some injuries I think. They're probably not as bad as the others. If you don't have good defense you can try and take pressure off by going on the offensive. The Kings tried that this year. With Sutter they are a defense first team. No cherry picking, no stretch passes, earn it. They got destroyed. The Kings because of their style need to overload on defense. Removing Sutter isn't going to change the style. He'll just be replaced with a similar coach. The team has to fix the defense.

Fixing the defense. First cup it was stay at home guys sheltering puck movers. The stay at home guys were defensive specialist. Now they have retired and the puck movers have grown, gotten the contracts/money, and are now trying to shelter the next wave of stay at home guys. This isn't working. The team needs to find new stay at home veteran specialists and then find the puck movers for them the shelter. They tried to evolve the defense over time and it needs to be reset.

Sutter has to be given a roster that works with his style, because he isn't changing.

 

[YP44]

One thing that's a little weird are the declarations we as fans make about the development of players. People who get paid a ton to scout these players for the draft don't even know for sure. Elevates Gravel too quick, too fast. That may or may not be accurate. Nobody knows that for sure. He's 24 now. Mitchell, who people have hoped he can become, was 24 in his first full NHL season. Muzzin was like 23, maybe 24.

Kempe isn't ready. Maybe. Or, a lot can change in a few months, and he's on the team come October.

If Gravel was there, Doughty would just have to, as the old saying goes, do his own job. If Gravel can't hang in there, then someone else will be there. If Doughty does his job, instead of trying to do two, everyone is better off.

What's the worst that can happen? The Kings struggle to make the playoffs/struggle in the playoffs? We've already crossed that bridge. The Kings are going to need someone from Ontario to exceed expectations next year with their cap situation. Might as well be Gravel. Forbort, Mersch, Dowd, Kempe, any and all of them are more than welcome to do it.

I want Gravel in the lineup. Just don't want to give him top pairing out the gate

 

[YP44]

Forward depth was about the best it's ever been. Which proved 1 thing to me. Moar Defense! ... The Kings are close to getting back. The road block is 6M tied up in a 3rd line wing preventing the defense from being filled out. In the event that Brown can't be moved you have to get creative with how to get around the cap.

Gudbrandson did just sign. The Panthers have 4 RHD (with that Euro free agent) for next year.



They could pick up a slightly cheaper/less skilled D in the UFA market. Or maybe Martinez + gets it done because the Avs want to save money.



We'll see. Wings are over loaded. Have other holes to fill. 3C is going to look like Dowd/Shore next year after Lewis leaves. I'm guessing they'll throw him in and see what happens. If not we got a nice wing. Just a feeling I got.... could be wrong.



This. Martinez is a fine top 4D. He's not going to carry say Schenn (example) on the second pair. Kings need a slightly higher end D. Remember, they're building the best team in the league.



All for it. Barrie was just an example.

I wonder if Jersey fans would at least be open to the idea. Their biggest need is goal scoring and have depth at D

 

[funky]

I am not sure why people are so quick in getting rid of Toffoli. An under 25 year old winger who scored 30 goals on a offensively challenged team.

Our core is signed long term and relatively young other than Quick and Carter who are very in shape.

Use this upcoming year as a purge year and assure we keep the best possible 8+1 or 7+3+1 possible in case an expansion draft does happen.

In the mean time try and rid ourselves of the big two contracts of Gaborik and Brown. We are stable this year money wise to float Browns contract as Toffolis big raise will be next summer. Use this year to try and trade Gaborik as Toffoli is already better and younger and homegrown.

If Brown is trades we have to worry about recapture even if we eat salary to move him. See what he does this year and if it doesn't improve eat the buyout next summer as it frees the extra money for Toffoli and Kempe should be ready to replace Browns production.

This summer it woul be easy to save money by replacing a few players with rookies:

King replaced by Mersch saves a mil
Enroth by Budaj saves almost a mil
Lewis my Dowd almost a mil
Schenn by Greene is a wash and allows Greene back
Forbort /Gravel / Greene/ Scuds can rotate through lineup to save on old guys wear and tear

Yes we needed an extra Dman in the playoffs but we also needed Kopitar, Doughty, Carter, Quick, Lucic and Toffoli to play a lot better or to their capabilities, this hurt us more than anything.

We are still a 100 point team that has a few holes but we slumped at the wrong time. I would use next year as a purge year, get through the year, the expansion drafts, draft a 1st rounder - yay, buyout Brown, sign Toffoli and let Kempe get a shot and see where the cap goes. Still have our backbone, better prospect cupboard, and more cap space to work with.

 

[YP44]

I am not sure why people are so quick in getting rid of Toffoli. An under 25 year old winger who scored 30 goals on a offensively challenged team.

Our core is signed long term and relatively young other than Quick and Carter who are very in shape.

Use this upcoming year as a purge year and assure we keep the best possible 8+1 or 7+3+1 possible in case an expansion draft does happen.

In the mean time try and rid ourselves of the big two contracts of Gaborik and Brown. We are stable this year money wise to float Browns contract as Toffolis big raise will be next summer. Use this year to try and trade Gaborik as Toffoli is already better and younger and homegrown.

If Brown is trades we have to worry about recapture even if we eat salary to move him. See what he does this year and if it doesn't improve eat the buyout next summer as it frees the extra money for Toffoli and Kempe should be ready to replace Browns production.

This summer it woul be easy to save money by replacing a few players with rookies:

King replaced by Mersch saves a mil
Enroth by Budaj saves almost a mil
Lewis my Dowd almost a mil
Schenn by Greene is a wash and allows Greene back
Forbort /Gravel / Greene/ Scuds can rotate through lineup to save on old guys wear and tear

Yes we needed an extra Dman in the playoffs but we also needed Kopitar, Doughty, Carter, Quick, Lucic and Toffoli to play a lot better or to their capabilities, this hurt us more than anything.

We are still a 100 point team that has a few holes but we slumped at the wrong time. I would use next year as a purge year, get through the year, the expansion drafts, draft a 1st rounder - yay, buyout Brown, sign Toffoli and let Kempe get a shot and see where the cap goes. Still have our backbone, better prospect cupboard, and more cap space to work with.

I agree with what yo uare saying and I am not quick to deal Toffoli. However I do not think it's an atrocious suggestion if it can bring in a young stud RHD signed to a good contract. The contract part is what makes me more picky then some.

 

[Mattias]

I feel as though so many around here are panicking a bit too much about acquiring another expensive blueliner and aren't seeing the forest from the trees.

Step back and pay attention to some of the hockey being played right now. Notice the bluelines of some of the remaining teams in the playoffs? No? Let's observe...

Penguins blueline: Letang, Daley, Maatta, Dumoulin, Lovejoy, Cole
Lightning blueline: Hedman, Coburn, Garrison, Carle, Sustr, Koekkoek, Witkowski
Stars blueline: Klingberg, Goligoski, Demers, Russell, Oduya, Johns

They're not exactly dripping with a ton of depth on their blueline either.

The Kings don't need Yandle, forget about him. They need a healthy blueline and one more guy who can knock McNabb down to a lesser role. The Kings don't have to waste any resources or tangible assets to add such a player.

Doughty, Muzzin and Martinez is a solid top 3. They are missing someone to round out that top 4. They also need to start giving an opportunity to a Gravel and/or Forbort who could perform just as well as a stiff like McNabb.

Not sure what'll happen to Greene, whether he'll be ready for next season or if he'll be injured long term again, but they need to be more mobile and having two of Greene and McNabb in the lineup is asking for trouble. One is enough. We saw the struggles with three stiffs in McNabb, Schenn and Scuderi.

Excellent post. There is so much feverish posting about creating large holes just to fill in the role of a #4 d-man. If the Kings manged just to find someone a tad more reliable you could run with

Drew / Muzzin
Mart / XX
Forbort/Gravel/Greene/Scuderi/McNabb.

At the moment, I cannot think of anyone who slots into the 4 role, but I don't see it as an emergency trade to send Toffoli/Pearson packing. McNabb could slot into the 6 role with use on the PK and third pairing minutes, he works adequately well there. Depending on how well Gravel plays, there is a possibility of him being that #4 guy, but that's up to his playing ability. Almost too much low-end talent on the team, or those 'lunch-players' Sutter loves so dearly.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

I feel as though so many around here are panicking a bit too much about acquiring another expensive blueliner and aren't seeing the forest from the trees.

Step back and pay attention to some of the hockey being played right now. Notice the bluelines of some of the remaining teams in the playoffs? No? Let's observe...

Penguins blueline: Letang, Daley, Maatta, Dumoulin, Lovejoy, Cole
Lightning blueline: Hedman, Coburn, Garrison, Carle, Sustr, Koekkoek, Witkowski
Stars blueline: Klingberg, Goligoski, Demers, Russell, Oduya, Johns

They're not exactly dripping with a ton of depth on their blueline either.

The Kings don't need Yandle, forget about him. They need a healthy blueline and one more guy who can knock McNabb down to a lesser role. The Kings don't have to waste any resources or tangible assets to add such a player.

Doughty, Muzzin and Martinez is a solid top 3. They are missing someone to round out that top 4. They also need to start giving an opportunity to a Gravel and/or Forbort who could perform just as well as a stiff like McNabb.

Not sure what'll happen to Greene, whether he'll be ready for next season or if he'll be injured long term again, but they need to be more mobile and having two of Greene and McNabb in the lineup is asking for trouble. One is enough. We saw the struggles with three stiffs in McNabb, Schenn and Scuderi.

Those 3 teams have elite offenses though. That's why Chicago was able to win with 4 defensemen. Their offense puts so much pressure on the opposing team's defense. Kings are more like the Blues where they don't have an elite offense but they do have an elite defense.

 

[Omni Owl]

Ideally Gravel-Forbort fill out the bottom pairing, in that they're cost effective and familiar with each other from Ontario. I'd much rather take care of that top 4 D spot than re-sign Lucic, but it sounds like DL has already made up his mind. I know we're going to be regretting that contract in a couple years.

 

[Tadite]

Not sure what'll happen to Greene, whether he'll be ready for next season or if he'll be injured long term again, but they need to be more mobile and having two of Greene and McNabb in the lineup is asking for trouble. One is enough. We saw the struggles with three stiffs in McNabb, Schenn and Scuderi.

Great post. I'd only like to add that one of our problems was also we didn't have someone to clear the front of the net. Those big huge Sharks players started wining board battles out muscled our d-men including the supposedly physical guys like Schenn and McNabb.

Just a few years ago guys like RR, Mitchell, and Green would just batter people in front of the net. People knew that even if they made a move for whatever scoring chance they might have get they'd have to pay a physical price. I noticed people hesitate to dump the puck against RR/Green so even though they didn't have the speed they did have a interesting edge of intimidation. Something none of the current guys have and a underrated aspect of defense. I'd hope we can get back to the 3-4 puck movers and 2-3 crushing physical guys.

Heck think about our old 5-3 group. Stoll, RR/Mitchell (depending on year) and Green. Each guy would (and did) take pucks to the face, be covered in blood, and deal with insane injuries, but still take the body and pay a real price to clear the net. I don't think we have that type of guy currently with both McNabb and Schenn being real disappointments and the other guys just not having that type of ability to take a physical price.

 

[YP44]

Ideally Gravel-Forbort fill out the bottom pairing, in that they're cost effective and familiar with each other from Ontario. I'd much rather take care of that top 4 D spot than re-sign Lucic, but it sounds like DL has already made up his mind. I know we're going to be regretting that contract in a couple years.

If it was that regrettable of a contract was offered I think it would have been signed by lucic's camp already. The longer he goes unsigned the more likely he is not a king IMO

 

[Omni Owl]

If it was that regrettable of a contract was offered I think it would have been signed by lucic's camp already. The longer he goes unsigned the more likely he is not a king IMO

One can only hope, not that I dislike the guy or anything, we just need to allocate funds for the top 4 D. If that area was already covered, then yeah, re-sign Lucic (if the cap space is there).

 

[Trolfoli]

Ideally Gravel-Forbort fill out the bottom pairing, in that they're cost effective and familiar with each other from Ontario. I'd much rather take care of that top 4 D spot than re-sign Lucic, but it sounds like DL has already made up his mind. I know we're going to be regretting that contract in a couple years.

With the expansion draft looming, filling that 4D spot isn't much of an option. If you put anyone there much better then Schenn you're pretty much guaranteeing they get picked off. Could always go the 4D 4F route. Then you're risking guys like Pearson/Kempe,Mersh to cover for that 4D you acquired.

Likely it will take more then 1 year to fill all the holes, in part due to the expansion. Also it may make sense to get the 3 best D you can and shift the hole to the left side where the Kings have more options at filling it.

Toffoli: Thank Voynov for the Kings not having the money to lock Toffoli up long term on his last contract. Now Toffoli will need a substantial raise. Toffoli at 3.25 is great! When you're looking at 6M (or more?) a little less.

-Around 6M it becomes possible to replace Toffoli with a UFA or call OTT about dumping Ryan.
-It may be better for the team to find a young player with a good shot (and some warts so they're cheap) they can put alongside Carter for way less money.
-Toffoli would have a lot of value if made available.
-Brown would be better to move, but that may not happen.


Also what do people think of a Muzzin, Trouba swap? Trouba is younger, doesn't put up the points, is RHD. Would probably cost a little more then Muzzin. Muzzin has had to move down to the second pair anyways because of the lack of depth on D. Would shift the hole to the left side where it's easier to fill.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Also what do people think of a Muzzin, Trouba swap? Trouba is younger, doesn't put up the points, is RHD. Would probably cost a little more then Muzzin. Muzzin has had to move down to the second pair anyways because of the lack of depth on D. Would shift the hole to the left side where it's easier to fill.

I was hoping we could do something more like Martinez ++ for Trouba because doing Doughty-Muzzin /McNabb-Trouba is AMAZING whereas swapping Muzzin for Trouba, like you say, just swaps the problem to the other side in Doughty-Mcnabb / Trouba-Martinez. And as of this moment, Muzzin > Trouba.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

I was hoping we could do something more like Martinez ++ for Trouba because doing Doughty-Muzzin /McNabb-Trouba is AMAZING whereas swapping Muzzin for Trouba, like you say, just swaps the problem to the other side in Doughty-Mcnabb / Trouba-Martinez. And as of this moment, Muzzin > Trouba.

Muzzin is better. Muzzin is probably cheaper. Yeah, I wouldn't trade him for Trouba unless they threw in Blake Wheeler and took Gaborik off our hands.

 

[Johnny Utah]

The Kings need a new partner for Doughty.

The Muzzin-Martinez combo was solid.

Greene can play with McNabb and Forbort will rotate in. Bury Scuderi in the minors.

Gravel is not waiver eligible like Forbort so unless the Kings make a trade expect Forbort in LA and Gravel in the AHL for another season.

Voynov was a 2nd rounder and spent 3 full seasons in the AHL. Muzzin spent 1 full season and parts of 2 others. Gravel is only in his second year and hasn't played more than 55 games in one AHL season yet.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Muzzin is better. Muzzin is probably cheaper. Yeah, I wouldn't trade him for Trouba unless they threw in Blake Wheeler and took Gaborik off our hands.

Muzzin is most likely cheaper forever.

Trouba was demanding 6+ as an RFA. I'm sure he'll land closer to 5, and be worth it long-term, but yeah, it becomes a retool, and a shame considering how the org has developed Muzzin and loves him.

 

[TonySCV]

Penguins blueline: Letang, Daley, Maatta, Dumoulin, Lovejoy, Cole
Lightning blueline: Hedman, Coburn, Garrison, Carle, Sustr, Koekkoek, Witkowski
Stars blueline: Klingberg, Goligoski, Demers, Russell, Oduya, Johns

They're not exactly dripping with a ton of depth on their blueline either.

None of those teams will win the Cup, save for maybe PIT but I don't think they get past the West. You'd be better off looking at the blue lines of SJ, NSH and STL.

 

[KOPITARRULEZ11]

Isn't Umberger a LW? I forget.

Would have liked him a few years back, definitely played Kings style hockey.

Not sure how his play is now, he was never in the lineup when I saw them

Vinny 2.0 lol fix garbage