GDT: Offseason game thread

[KingsFan7824]

This. And rewarding Greene with longterm contract, (was it 4 yrs? shoulda been 2 only max, as he was already borderline to be a 6th guy; slowing down and about 70% of what he was.

Beyond loyalty, not replacing Mitchell, Voynov and Regehr has been devastating. Replacing them with Schultz, McBain, Schenn, Scuderi, is abysmal. Sekera was a risky move and it backfired.

If Lucic isn't signed, it is horribad - could have gotten a good return for Jones and could have drafted Kyle Connor, who would have been the highest impact draftee since Doughty.

When you lose a top 4 right handed defenseman on a good contract for nothing, no GM is going to hand over a replacement. Part of why it's tough to replace Mitchell and Regehr is that Muzzin and Martinez are getting paid more. Their combined raises from their previous contracts equal a top 6 defenseman. Muzzin and Martinez are the decently paid veterans now, and the Kings haven't had the young guys coming up from the AHL to fill in the gaps. McNabb has been average at best. Forbort is a missed pick at this point.

That's why it's tough to win though. Everything needs to fall into place at the right time. Mitchell had concussion problems in Vancouver. He had some early on with the Kings I think, but he was mostly healthy. He missed more time with a knee problem than anything with the brain, and then came back fine the next year.

The Kings aren't winning the Cup with just Doughty, Mitchell, Scuderi/Regehr, and Greene either. They needed Martinez, Voynov, and Muzzin to complete the picture. Lombardi is searching for that 2nd group.

And Jones had little value to the Kings. If he had had a better market, Lombardi would've done something different. How many teams needed a goalie, and would be willing to give the Kings anything? Were the Sharks going to make that deal with the Kings instead? I'm going to doubt they would.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

There seems to be this other Euro guy, whats his name? Kopitar?

How often does one of "these Euro players..." turn out to be a solid long term player? Once every Panarin? Who knows how Panarin will turn out, long term? Especially once teams get more experience covering him defensively.

Should the KINGS do anything major ahead of the expansion draft? It would only complicate options for retaining players. Might be better to sign Lucic and stand pat. Give some prospects some games on the big club. After all, this years crop of UFA's is limited. Maybe the chaos created by the expansion draft will put pressure on other GM's and provide better opportunities for us.

That's a really big, really good point that a couple of others have brought up in passing but I agree, that's going to be a big philosophical question for any team this summer. Holden, for one, counters by saying something to the effect of 'look, you don't NOT try to improve your team because of what MIGHT happen,' but if you spend the assets to land a Trouba type (just an example), then suddenly you're one impact player beyond what you can protect and you're thus going to lose a bigtime player AND the assets you gave up to get another guy...tough choices have to be made.

I can easily see an expansion team poaching players from Chicago, LA, this year's champion regardless.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

And Jones had little value to the Kings. If he had had a better market, Lombardi would've done something different. How many teams needed a goalie, and would be willing to give the Kings anything? Were the Sharks going to make that deal with the Kings instead? I'm going to doubt they would.

I still think the specter of an offer sheet was the impetus for that whole thing regardless. Wilson painted DL into a corner imo, then cashed in anyway. I believe Jones would easily have signed an offer sheet deal since he wanted to start and DL was probably sick of him being a contract malcontent.

All total speculation obviously but I think it fits what we know given Jones' (justified) desires to start and his contract negotiation history.

 

[DOSKI]

That's not how it works.

No one is denying he did great things for this franchise...in the past. He has been a bad player for three straight seasons and is nowhere near worth his salary. Is he a bad person for signing a contract Dean put in front of him? No. But that doesn't mean he's worth it right now, and he is actively hurting the Kings' ability to improve with his albatross of a contract.

Just because he did great things for us in the past does not mean we should forfeit the future for him.

Posters want a 3/4 line player in the Kings system to score in the high teens and twenties and the same for assists. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Kings 3/4 lines are structured to play beneath the goal line to wear down the opposition, disrupt defensive schemes and D line changes.
These assignments eventually open up the play for the top 6. That's also why 3/4 line players are "secondary scoring".
Their main assignment is to maintain a cycle possession in the O Zone so top 6 players can get on the ice against weaker D.

Kind of hard to regularly score goals while beating up on D and skating cycles all shift. Especially when you have to keep the puck below the goal line.
He'd probably double his numbers if he played top 6 minutes in all 82 games. Average out streaks - like Carter and Toffoli.

BTW, Brown did not "forfeit the future". Players don't do that.

Player don't determine their contract value. The market does. That's what the market did when he signed.
The NHL is the organization that wanted to create this kind of "team building pressure" - and for good reason.
Stop blaming players for ruining our own sense of entitlement.

Brown, and teammates, helped build the KINGS. Future and all.
They wiped out what, forty years of frustration? Enjoy the now.

 

[CowMix]

Is everyone sure that Brown's modified NTC doesn't force us to protect him from the expansion draft?

 

[DOSKI]

I still think the specter of an offer sheet was the impetus for that whole thing regardless. Wilson painted DL into a corner imo, then cashed in anyway. I believe Jones would easily have signed an offer sheet deal since he wanted to start and DL was probably sick of him being a contract malcontent.

All total speculation obviously but I think it fits what we know given Jones' (justified) desires to start and his contract negotiation history.

Not that he'd have any desire to do something like that !

 

[onlyalad]

Is everyone sure that Brown's modified NTC doesn't force us to protect him from the expansion draft?

The rules have yet to be locked in, but the latest rumor is that NMC must be protected but NTC don't. That being said, even if there are two teams, it is unlikely that Brown will be chosen. Why take him when you can take a better value young forward or a #4 defense man? Then use the money to sign UFAs.
Every team is going to leave exposed a "bad" contract. The expansion team(s) are under no pressure to take them.

 

[Trolfoli]

Posters want a 3/4 line player in the Kings system to score in the high teens and twenties and the same for assists. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Kings 3/4 lines are structured to play beneath the goal line to wear down the opposition, disrupt defensive schemes and D line changes.
These assignments eventually open up the play for the top 6. That's also why 3/4 line players are "secondary scoring".
Their main assignment is to maintain a cycle possession in the O Zone so top 6 players can get on the ice against weaker D.

Kind of hard to regularly score goals while beating up on D and skating cycles all shift. Especially when you have to keep the puck below the goal line.
He'd probably double his numbers if he played top 6 minutes in all 82 games. Average out streaks - like Carter and Toffoli.

BTW, Brown did not "forfeit the future". Players don't do that.

Player don't determine their contract value. The market does. That's what the market did when he signed.
The NHL is the organization that wanted to create this kind of "team building pressure" - and for good reason.
Stop blaming players for ruining our own sense of entitlement.

Brown, and teammates, helped build the KINGS. Future and all.
They wiped out what, forty years of frustration? Enjoy the now.

Brown played plenty of time in the top 6 last year. Both with Kopitar and Carter. He drags down the offense. He is the reason he plays in the bottom 6 where it's harder to put up points. It is on Brown.

That is with Sutter constantly giving Brown chances in the top 6. First the team is better with Brown traded because of freeing up cap space, that includes retention if necessary. Second the team is better because Brown is permanently out of the top 6. As long as he's here, Brown will continue to get time in the top 6.

 

[DOSKI]

Plenty of time? Nope, disagree with this. It was always temporary.

Top 6 forwards are usually kept in place an entire season to average out hot and cold spells. I agree it's not the best use of all our top 6 players to have Brown up there an entire season. However, it was ok while the team was developing in past years. But that is the only way any Kings player should be expected to produce 20+ goals and 20+ assists a year. Especially w/Kings system.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

Plenty of time? Nope, disagree with this. It was always temporary.

Top 6 forwards are usually kept in place an entire season to average out hot and cold spells. I agree it's not the best use of all our top 6 players to have Brown up there an entire season. However, it was ok while the team was developing in past years. But that is the only way any Kings player should be expected to produce 20+ goals and 20+ assists a year. Especially w/Kings system.

The center that Brown spent the most time with this season 5 on 5 was Kopitar at 46%. He was terrible and dragging down Kopitar most of the season which is why they had to move him. Can't just leave him there if he isn't producing. I know all players go through dry spells but Brown's has now been 3 seasons.

 

[CowMix]

This year Lucic was brought in to play the role that Brown was supposed to be playing when he signed the extension. To me having both players is redundant, so if DL wants to resign Lucic he should move Brown. If he wants to keep Brown he has desperately do something to get him back into 2012 form. The cap space is just better spent on defense and Pearson/Toffoli instead of 11 to 12 million on Lucic and Brown.

 

[BigBrown]

This year Lucic was brought in to play the role that Brown was supposed to be playing when he signed the extension. To me having both players is redundant, so if DL wants to resign Lucic he should move Brown. If he wants to keep Brown he has desperately do something to get him back into 2012 form. The cap space is just better spent on defense and Pearson/Toffoli instead of 11 to 12 million on Lucic and Brown.

I don't think it's a question of wanting to keep Brown, it's more like having to keep Brown.

 

[CowMix]

I don't think it's a question of wanting to keep Brown, it's more like having to keep Brown.

Either way I don't think you can keep both. If Brown can't be moved then you just don't resign Lucic.

 

[Trolfoli]

Either way I don't think you can keep both. If Brown can't be moved then you just don't resign Lucic.

You can keep both, but the defense isn't getting any better, and the Kings will lose depth up front too. VL/Lewis/Steeger. If the plan is to do a retool and take the next couple of years to build back up, not really competing in the mean time, then it is a possibility.

 

[Trolfoli]

Plenty of time? Nope, disagree with this. It was always temporary.

Top 6 forwards are usually kept in place an entire season to average out hot and cold spells. I agree it's not the best use of all our top 6 players to have Brown up there an entire season. However, it was ok while the team was developing in past years. But that is the only way any Kings player should be expected to produce 20+ goals and 20+ assists a year. Especially w/Kings system.

He has been given every opportunity to stick in the top 6 over the last 3 years. The fact that he can't stick in the top 6 is not an excuse for putting up **** numbers on the 3rd line. Getting Shore as a center is on Brown. He played himself out of the top6.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Meh, we got two Cups. Dean's gonna go down with his ship.

In 3-4 years we'll see a real rebuild. I really don't care at this point. This team is past its window.

 

[kings11]

Meh, we got two Cups. Dean's gonna go down with his ship.

In 3-4 years we'll see a real rebuild. I really don't care at this point. This team is past its window.

Great to see the what have you done for me lately crowd starting to join the discussion....
Mistakes have been been made by DL these past few seasons,
Keeping MR a season too late
Letting Willie walk a year too soon
Extending Greene for too long
Extending Brown for such a high cap hit
The Sekera trade
And so on ....blah blah blah
But he has also been brilliant in making impactful trades, Gaborik, Carter, Sekera(despite the results)..
Despite how people compare Lucic to Brown the fact remains that Browns intensity and hard hitting won us our only playoff game... Brown doesn't really need to score he needs to set the tone with those slobberknocking hits and physical play...Lucic did absolutely nothing but take momentum sapping penalties and didn't step up when needed so I'd let him walk quite honestly..
Our biggest problem is defense and has been the last 2 seasons, so that Lucic money needs to go toward a defenseman ...

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Dean Lombardi has literally 10 years with this organization to evaluate now. That's a ******** of moves. At this point, if you really wanted to, you could paint him any way you want. I'd advise against it, though.

Hell I just saw a guy that suggested he was simply lucky between 12-14 and has been a terrible GM otherwise, and if you're picky about what moves you include, you could make that argument as easily as you could make the argument he's one of the best in the game.

I'm just going to be happy he brought us the golden age of hockey and see where he takes us from here, this is the hard part he alluded to after 2012, and it's complicated even further by the complete destruction of our defensive core for a variety of reasons, which is similar to deadmarsh-allison-palffy imo--there are certain things pretty beyond a GMs control.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Great to see the what have you done for me lately crowd starting to join the discussion....
Mistakes have been been made by DL these past few seasons,
Keeping MR a season too late
Letting Willie walk a year too soon
Extending Greene for too long
Extending Brown for such a high cap hit
The Sekera trade
And so on ....blah blah blah
But he has also been brilliant in making impactful trades, Gaborik, Carter, Sekera(despite the results)..
Despite how people compare Lucic to Brown the fact remains that Browns intensity and hard hitting won us our only playoff game... Brown doesn't really need to score he needs to set the tone with those slobberknocking hits and physical play...Lucic did absolutely nothing but take momentum sapping penalties and didn't step up when needed so I'd let him walk quite honestly..
Our biggest problem is defense and has been the last 2 seasons, so that Lucic money needs to go toward a defenseman ...

It had nothing to do with what have you done for me lately. It's about calling a spade a spade. This team is passing its prime and saddled with too many albatross contracts. Dean's about to hand out one more. He's lost his ability to objectively evaluate players that fit old school hockey romanticism.

And I've consistently sided with Herby that Dean Lombardi is vastly overrated by this fanbase. He's rolled with the punches well and made some good deals with his back against the wall, but he's no mastermind. If Dean could have had it his way, he would have signed Brad Richards for a trillion dollars and the Carter trade never happens.

And ignoring Dean's baffling financial decisions since 2014, he has completely flubbed several first round picks, most of which could have been used on young impact players supplementing the crappy old guys on **** contracts.

Dean earned his equity in 2012 and 2014, yes. And he's burning through it fast.

 

[kings11]

It had nothing to do with what have you done for me lately. It's about calling a spade a spade. This team is passing its prime and saddled with too many albatross contracts. Dean's about to hand out one more. He's lost his ability to objectively evaluate players that fit old school hockey romanticism.

And I've consistently sided with Herby that Dean Lombardi is vastly overrated by this fanbase. He's rolled with the punches well and made some good deals with his back against the wall, but he's no mastermind. If Dean could have had it his way, he would have signed Brad Richards for a trillion dollars and the Carter trade never happens.

And ignoring Dean's baffling financial decisions since 2014, he has completely flubbed several first round picks, most of which could have been used on young impact players supplementing the crappy old guys on **** contracts.

Dean earned his equity in 2012 and 2014, yes. And he's burning through it fast.

No arguing the bad drafting and contracts like I've said they've been bad ..however the voynov case and the loss of leadership and physicality that left with Willie and a useful Scuds were never addressed and that's the real problem with this team, it's built from the goalie out with its players and philosophy unfortunately that link is broken with the lack of defenseman...Doughty cannot and must not continue to play 26-28 min during the season and 30+ minutes in the playoffs ..

 

[Thrice]

Dean Lombardi has literally 10 years with this organization to evaluate now. That's a ******** of moves. At this point, if you really wanted to, you could paint him any way you want. I'd advise against it, though.

Hell I just saw a guy that suggested he was simply lucky between 12-14 and has been a terrible GM otherwise, and if you're picky about what moves you include, you could make that argument as easily as you could make the argument he's one of the best in the game.

I'm just going to be happy he brought us the golden age of hockey and see where he takes us from here, this is the hard part he alluded to after 2012, and it's complicated even further by the complete destruction of our defensive core for a variety of reasons, which is similar to deadmarsh-allison-palffy imo--there are certain things pretty beyond a GMs control.

Lombardi made his best moves when he had great chips to play, as is the case with any GM.

His prospect scouting staff was the class of the NHL from 2007-2009. Over that period, the Kings had 29 picks. 13 of those picks played more than 80 games in the NHL. Another 5 played 5+ games at the NHL level. That's an astronomical 18 out of 29 picks that turned into NHL players. Just incredible. Three phenomenal drafts. Not every player panned out but they made so many great picks.

From drafts 2010-2015, they had 40 selections. In that time frame only two picks have developed into NHL regulars, Tyler Toffoli and Tanner Pearson. Another 9 have played at least 1 game at the NHL level but lets take a closer look at those 9 and tell me how many of these players have a realistic ceiling beyond 3rd line/3rd pairing at the NHL level.

Nick Shore - 102 games
Andy Andreoff - 78 games
Colin Miller - 42 games
Michael Mersch - 17 games
Jordan Weal - 14 games
Derek Forbort - 14 games
Hudson Fasching - 7 games
Kevin Gravel - 5 games
Christopher Gibson - 4 games

Pedestrian draft selections have led to desperation deals from Lombardi involving future picks instead of prospects. So, Lombardi has to trade high draft picks because he doesn't have high value prospects and he doesn't have high value prospects because he's had to deal his high draft picks. And round and round it goes.

 

[bob77]

When you lose a top 4 right handed defenseman on a good contract for nothing, no GM is going to hand over a replacement. Part of why it's tough to replace Mitchell and Regehr is that Muzzin and Martinez are getting paid more. Their combined raises from their previous contracts equal a top 6 defenseman. Muzzin and Martinez are the decently paid veterans now, and the Kings haven't had the young guys coming up from the AHL to fill in the gaps. McNabb has been average at best. Forbort is a missed pick at this point.

That's why it's tough to win though. Everything needs to fall into place at the right time. Mitchell had concussion problems in Vancouver. He had some early on with the Kings I think, but he was mostly healthy. He missed more time with a knee problem than anything with the brain, and then came back fine the next year.

The Kings aren't winning the Cup with just Doughty, Mitchell, Scuderi/Regehr, and Greene either. They needed Martinez, Voynov, and Muzzin to complete the picture. Lombardi is searching for that 2nd group.

And Jones had little value to the Kings. If he had had a better market, Lombardi would've done something different. How many teams needed a goalie, and would be willing to give the Kings anything? Were the Sharks going to make that deal with the Kings instead? I'm going to doubt they would.

I agree with what you're saying about the D, except Forbort and Gravel for that matter are not "misses" yet. They haven't been given a sincere stretch of games with 15 minutes or more each game!! The other personnel I would refer to as misses if you like, such as Ehrhoff, Scuderi, Schenn, perhaps McNabb and McBain. The point is the latter group has been given the royal treatment, and the former have been given the , ah, you need experience, you only played so many college games, etc. Ive noticed some people wondering lately about the DS DL bias against Euros? Well parts of the US might well be Europe!! And hell, eastern Canada might as well be Europe to DS. The people that do play that dont fit this mold were mostly here before DS came along. There definitely are blinders on and profiling and stereotyping talent in the Kings organization. But, it is widely believed that a Canadian kid will die to win a cup, whereas others might see it as ruining their summer vacation. So, it goes from there!! Its just one more way in which DS and DL can not objectively assess talent. To me they both carry too many preconceived ideas and notions about what constitutes a good hockey player. Its the Gravel and Forbort are just college boys (American mind you), and at the draft, they're mentioned as long term projects, and yet McNabb is brought in and is labled as the best AHL player not playing in the NHL, and yet all he ever did was suit up for a weak Buffalo team for 30 games or so. The instant playing this year of Schenn and Scuderi, and continued played until we got our arrrses handes to us was ridiculous, and we all had front row seats!! So, this is the "miss" crowd!! When the kids are given their full look and chance, and if or when they don't pan out, then use the word miss.

 

[damacles1156]

Posters want a 3/4 line player in the Kings system to score in the high teens and twenties and the same for assists. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Kings 3/4 lines are structured to play beneath the goal line to wear down the opposition, disrupt defensive schemes and D line changes.
These assignments eventually open up the play for the top 6. That's also why 3/4 line players are "secondary scoring".
Their main assignment is to maintain a cycle possession in the O Zone so top 6 players can get on the ice against weaker D.

Kind of hard to regularly score goals while beating up on D and skating cycles all shift. Especially when you have to keep the puck below the goal line.
He'd probably double his numbers if he played top 6 minutes in all 82 games. Average out streaks - like Carter and Toffoli.

BTW, Brown did not "forfeit the future". Players don't do that.

Player don't determine their contract value. The market does. That's what the market did when he signed.
The NHL is the organization that wanted to create this kind of "team building pressure" - and for good reason.
Stop blaming players for ruining our own sense of entitlement.

Brown, and teammates, helped build the KINGS. Future and all.
They wiped out what, forty years of frustration? Enjoy the now.

Awesome post.

Very well thought out, Bravo.

People really need to look around the league at secondary scoring. It's not that high on any team save for a handful.

Also when the Kings won cups, they had botttom league secondary scoring all year. The post season was different though, the Kings scored more than enough. You just never know, the Kings played poorly all around this playoff's. The top six wasn't any good,bottom six ok, defense played awful, that's a recipe for a first round exit.

 

[damacles1156]

Lombardi made his best moves when he had great chips to play, as is the case with any GM.

His prospect scouting staff was the class of the NHL from 2007-2009. Over that period, the Kings had 29 picks. 13 of those picks played more than 80 games in the NHL. Another 5 played 5+ games at the NHL level. That's an astronomical 18 out of 29 picks that turned into NHL players. Just incredible. Three phenomenal drafts. Not every player panned out but they made so many great picks.

From drafts 2010-2015, they had 40 selections. In that time frame only two picks have developed into NHL regulars, Tyler Toffoli and Tanner Pearson. Another 9 have played at least 1 game at the NHL level but lets take a closer look at those 9 and tell me how many of these players have a realistic ceiling beyond 3rd line/3rd pairing at the NHL level.

Nick Shore - 102 games
Andy Andreoff - 78 games
Colin Miller - 42 games
Michael Mersch - 17 games
Jordan Weal - 14 games
Derek Forbort - 14 games
Hudson Fasching - 7 games
Kevin Gravel - 5 games
Christopher Gibson - 4 games

Pedestrian draft selections have led to desperation deals from Lombardi involving future picks instead of prospects. So, Lombardi has to trade high draft picks because he doesn't have high value prospects and he doesn't have high value prospects because he's had to deal his high draft picks. And round and round it goes.

I agree with this also.

Those drafts have cause some problems, with a stagnant cap too boot.

But, people had to expect the Kings would pay for dealing 1st/2nd rounders. That was going to happen.

The reward was Two Stanley Cups, and the golden age of Kings hockey. I am ok with the price Lombardi paid.

 

[LAKings88]

DL has done what he could routinely well.

VV and Richards decline really screwed the long term plan.

The Lucic fascination is beyond me but it is what it is.

Stoll, Williams, Richards, and Mitchell were the true leadership in the room imho. Guess Greene too.

My one bone to pick is first round selections. I can't stand taking stay at home d men in the first. Swing for fence on a Tarasenko type player.

Amadio, Kempe, Mersch, Gravel, Ladue, Forbort give me some hope but they are not world beaters.