Official Training Camp Thread

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The concept of a team is lost on some. Plumbers can be just as important as dancers.

Beyond that, it’s just bizarre to me that a fan could watch Yushkevich block so many pucks from the Flyers shooting gallery en route to a shutout elimination win and respond so negatively so many years later. As if that wasn’t the right contribution at the right time. What did you want to see instead, someone dancing out to center ice with the puck and perform an ill timed drop pass?
 
Sorry, physicality is a part of the game, and an important part of it. It sure played a part in Montreal eliminating us in the Canadian division.

Chara, Edmundson, Oleksiak, Sustr, Bogosian, Schenn, Cernak, Weber, Chairot, Manson are just some examples of guys who were cup finalists since 2019. No one’s awarding them a Conn Smythe but categorically trashing up any big defensive player who offers up some physical play and not a lot of offense just seems like a weird prejudice. What’s next, 4th line centres and backup goalies?
 
I don’t understand how you can categorically pooh pooh an entire player class after watching NHL playoffs year after year. No these big knuckle draggers and shot blockers can’t do a lot with the puck nor are they entrusted to lead a team. But they play a certain role that needs to be filled and I’d rather one of them make a sacrifice to good health than a Mitch Marner or a Morgan Rielly. Looking at the cup finalists the past 5 years you’ll see a number of these cavemen type guys on various bluelines. You don’t need to go out and buy their jerseys and rookie cards but you need them for certain game situations.
No way could you be Cup competitive if you dressed a 4th line of Corey Perry -- Pierre-Edouard Bellemare - Pat Maroon.

No way could the Leafs lose to a team in the 1st round that dressed a line of big knuckle draggers like that. :wg:

While some teams dress redwood forests on their Dcores to address that, the Leafs look to be seeing if 5-9 Victor Mete as depth 3rd pairing, waived by last place Montreal, and claimed by none playoff Ottawa and released as a unqualified RFA last year, is Leafs answer to play against other teams 4th lines with players like Pat Maroon on them as a good depth piece for the playoffs.

Perception is nine-tenths of the law, or is that possession and Leafs 4th line and bottom pairing won't have it often when facing a 4th line like that.
 
No way could you be Cup competitive if you dressed a 4th line of Corey Perry -- Pierre-Edouard Bellemare - Pat Maroon.

No way could the Leafs lose to a team in the 1st round that dressed a line of big knuckle draggers like that. :wg:

While some teams dress redwood forests on their Dcores, the Leafs look to be seeing if 5-9 Victor Mete as depth 3rd pairing, waived by last place Montreal, and claimed by none playoff Ottawa and released as a unqualified RFA last year, is Leafs answer to play against other teams 4th lines with players like Pat Maroon on them as a good depth piece for the playoffs.

Perception is nine-tenths of the law, or is that possession and Leafs 4th line and bottom pairing won't have it often when facing a 4th line like that.

Yeah Simmonds and Clifford looked pretty great that series.
 
Chara, Edmundson, Oleksiak, Sustr, Bogosian, Schenn, Cernak, Weber, Chairot, Manson are just some examples of guys who were cup finalists since 2019. No one’s awarding them a Conn Smythe but categorically trashing up any big defensive player who offers up some physical play and not a lot of offense just seems like a weird prejudice. What’s next, 4th line centres and backup goalies?

Some of those players are good players, some are bad players. The bad ones were liabilities that hurt those cup finalist teams, not helped. Categorically praising them because they are BIG just seems like a weird prejudice.

The Leafs had Muzzin and Boosh and zero midgets on defense these last playoffs, for the record.
 
No way could you be Cup competitive if you dressed a 4th line of Corey Perry -- Pierre-Edouard Bellemare - Pat Maroon.

No way could the Leafs lose to a team in the 1st round that dressed a line of big knuckle draggers like that. :wg:

While some teams dress redwood forests on their Dcores to address that, the Leafs look to be seeing if 5-9 Victor Mete as depth 3rd pairing, waived by last place Montreal, and claimed by none playoff Ottawa and released as a unqualified RFA last year, is Leafs answer to play against other teams 4th lines with players like Pat Maroon on them as a good depth piece for the playoffs.

Perception is nine-tenths of the law, or is that possession and Leafs 4th line and bottom pairing won't have it often when facing a 4th line like that.

It isn't Mete we should be concerned about... he's something like 8th-11th on the depth chart. It's having a guy who can actually play in the lineup on merits. As I've posted a couple of times, we just don't have the money for those guys right now... the premium on them, is kind of ridiculous for what they bring, even though you need them... I guess, supply and demand. When Andrew Peeke is getting $2.75 mil.... and I like the guy, but man...

As far as the guys on the 4th line.... I think you need guys who can skate, and play physical. I don't think they necessarily need to be huge guys, just play hard. You look at Colorado's bottom six, and I think they had one guy over 6'0"... including NAK.
 
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1. Rielly 6'1 222
2. Brodie 6'2 190

3. Muzzin 6'3 225
4. Giordano 6'0 205

5. Liljegren 6'1 200
6. Sandin 5'11 185

7. Holl 6'3 205
8. Benn 6'2 205

9. Mete 5'9 190
10. Dahlstrom 6'4 230
 
Some of those players are good players, some are bad players. The bad ones were liabilities that hurt those cup finalist teams, not helped. Categorically praising them because they are BIG just seems like a weird prejudice.

The Leafs had Muzzin and Boosh and zero midgets on defense these last playoffs, for the record.

“Midget” is your term.

I just find it bizarre that you’d categorically write off specific player types like Polak, Lyubushkin and count Yushkevich among them just because they play defensive, shot block and knuckle dragging, hitting roles.

Yushkevich wasn’t even big, by the way. Neither was Danny Markov who played the same necessary style.
 
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“Midget” is your term.

I just find it bizarre that you’d categorically write off specific player types like Polak, Lyubushkin and count Yushkevich among them just because they play defensive, shot block and knuckle dragging, hitting roles.

Yushkevich wasn’t even big, by the way. Neither was Danny Markov who played the same necessary style.
Yep, playing big doesn't mean you're tall. :laugh:
 
1. Rielly 6'1 222
2. Brodie 6'2 190

3. Muzzin 6'3 225
4. Giordano 6'0 205

5. Liljegren 6'1 200
6. Sandin 5'11 185

7. Holl 6'3 205
8. Benn 6'2 205

9. Mete 5'9 190
10. Dahlstrom 6'4 230

Colorado top six in the playoffs
6'4" 225, 6.1" 227, 5'11" 187, 6'3" 218, 6'1" 191, 6'0" 190 -> Of which three guys play a heavy game

Tampa had seven guys play significant playoff minutes
6'6" 241, 6'3" 230, 6'1" 215, 6'3" 216, 6'4" 227, 6'2" 200, 6'3" 204 - > Of which most play a heavy game

In our top six, even seven... it's just Muzzin who plays a heavy game. Our D is smaller than Colorado's or Tampa's... and Colorado is a relatively small D-core, compared to other finalists of the past.

Sure, Colorado being bigger, is just marginal, but more than being bigger, is a more physical unit. I like our D for the most part, but I would love to have Giordano be the #7 in and out of the lineup as needed, and swap Holl with someone who is... better and more physical. As others have said... it isn't just about size, but how you play. Look at Weegar... physical guy, but he's only 6' and 200lbs....
 
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“Midget” is your term.

I just find it bizarre that you’d categorically write off specific player types like Polak, Lyubushkin and count Yushkevich among them just because they play defensive, shot block and knuckle dragging, hitting roles.

Yushkevich wasn’t even big, by the way. Neither was Danny Markov who played the same necessary style.

Yushkevich was actually a good dman (though still overrated).

Polak and Lyubushkin are junk.
 
Colorado top six in the playoffs
6'4" 225, 6.1" 227, 5'11" 187, 6'3" 218, 6'1" 191, 6'0" 190 -> Of which three guys play a heavy game

Jack Johnson is utter crap, and was only in because tiny little Sammy Girard was injured. And Jack Johnson does anything but play a "heavy game", regardless. They would have been much better off with Girard in. They had 2 dmen in their top 6 with any size, and neither would have been in the top 4 if healthy. And saying that Erik Johnson plays a "heavy game" is a pretty big stretch itself.


Tampa had seven guys play significant playoff minutes
6'6" 241, 6'3" 230, 6'1" 215, 6'3" 216, 6'4" 227, 6'2" 200, 6'3" 204 - > Of which most play a heavy game

and we outscored and outplayed them and deserved to win.
 
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Yeah, some people still vastly overrate big physical hitters over the more important facets of the game.
A multivariate game such as hockey is not so easily reduced to skating hard and shot quality. All contact sports have a tactile aspect to properly function. It's hard to fathom why people disregard physicality as an important point that requires addressing. I get that there are people who go to the other extreme, but they aren't trying to be high browed about it.
 
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The argument you’re taking would be like a basketball fan saying they don’t believe in rim protectors and defensive rebounding. Yeah, no one’s buying a ticket to watch that stuff but it’s still part of the game.
Stephen, my man, you gotta update that one. Rim protectors have been declining in value for a while. Wing defenders with large wingspans and quick feet are the rage now.
 
No way could you be Cup competitive if you dressed a 4th line of Corey Perry -- Pierre-Edouard Bellemare - Pat Maroon.

No way could the Leafs lose to a team in the 1st round that dressed a line of big knuckle draggers like that. :wg:

While some teams dress redwood forests on their Dcores to address that, the Leafs look to be seeing if 5-9 Victor Mete as depth 3rd pairing, waived by last place Montreal, and claimed by none playoff Ottawa and released as a unqualified RFA last year, is Leafs answer to play against other teams 4th lines with players like Pat Maroon on them as a good depth piece for the playoffs.

Perception is nine-tenths of the law, or is that possession and Leafs 4th line and bottom pairing won't have it often when facing a 4th line like that.

In what world are Perry and Maroon knuckle draggers? Both are former top-6 players who scored 31 and 40 points last season respectively. No one has a problem with adding big forwards that have non-zero puck skills, Simmonds could have been that but he's too broken down.
 
Jack Johnson is utter crap, and was only in because tiny little Sammy Girard was injured. And Jack Johnson does anything but play a "heavy game", regardless. They would have been much better off with Girard in. They had 2 dmen in their top 6 with any size, and neither would have been in the top 4 if healthy. And saying that Erik Johnson plays a "heavy game" is a pretty big stretch itself.




and we outscored and outplayed them and deserved to win.
A bit of a specious argument there Zeke. Saying there aren't advantages to big physical players kind of disregards the requirement that players ever hit the gym. Two opposing players of equal skill and IQ level will aways be decided on size, strength and aggression. That is a fact
 
A multivariate game such as hockey is not so easily reduced to skating hard and shot quality. All contact sports have a tactile aspect to properly function. It's hard to fathom why people disregard physicality as an important point that requires addressing. I get that there are people who go to the other extreme, but they aren't trying to be high browed about it.

Nah, this is a strawman.

There is nothing high browed about being ok with losing Simmonds and Boosh from the everyday line up. That's the wrong kind of physciality. Show me one player on Colorado or Tampa who had worse footspeed than Simmonds or Boosh? Worse hands?

Framing everyone who doesn't want garbage time 4th liners who can't skate as "high brow" is some ratty behaviour.
 
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