Official Tank Thread of the Toronto Maple Leafs

[BoredBrandonPridham]

I think the term tanking is overused. Buffalo last year was definitely tanking, they made moves that had little purpose other than getting worse short-term.

Win Now: Actively trying to gain any edge to win in the present, regardless of effect on future.
Competing: Looking to strengthen the teams chances without hurting the most important future assets, unless the return is right.
Limbo: Dem peeps be lost.
Rebuilding: Making moves to reap the rewards years ahead, with little focus on now.
Tanking: Making moves to actively get worse now in an attempt to strengthen chances down the line.

"Win Now" according to your definition is not something a team would ever do.

"Rebuilding" and "Tanking" are the same thing.

 

[mallory67]

"Win Now" according to your definition is not something a team would ever do.

"Rebuilding" and "Tanking" are the same thing.

"Win Now" is what Pittsburgh did with the Kessel trade. Trading away prospects and picks (your future) to win a cup this year or next.

 

[HellasLEAF]

I think the team is tanking this year. I really do. And by team I mean management, not Babcock or any of the coaching staff or players.

Rolling with Riemer/Bernier again, keeping talented younger players on the farm, not address last years not good enough personnel and filling up the rest with one year contracts, they are steering this ship intentionally towards as low a pick as is possible without making it obvious.

When you look at all the picks we have this coming draft, this is a very important year to NOT DO WELL!!

 

[Ovate]

"Win Now" according to your definition is not something a team would ever do.

"Rebuilding" and "Tanking" are the same thing.

No team would ever trade their future season in order to be more competitive in the current season? You mean what a decent chunk of the league does every deadline?

Rebuilding is making moves to acquire future assets. Tanking is making moves to lower your place in the standings in order to get a higher draft pick.

Is that so hard to understand?

 

[Ovate]

I think the team is tanking this year. I really do. And by team I mean management, not Babcock or any of the coaching staff or players.

Rolling with Riemer/Bernier again, keeping talented younger players on the farm, not address last years not good enough personnel and filling up the rest with one year contracts, they are steering this ship intentionally towards as low a pick as is possible without making it obvious.

When you look at all the picks we have this coming draft, this is a very important year to NOT DO WELL!!

Who would they roll with if not Reimer and Bernier? The two have been able to perform as a 1A/1B setup in the past, no one would have predicted they'd be so bad to start this season.

Keeping talented younger players on the farm is a rebuilding move, not a tanking one. It's very possible to believe that getting top ice time on the Marlies will be better for development than bottom 6 minutes in the NHL.

How can they get rid of last year's not good enough personel if they're not getting any offers on them? And besides, those guys (Phaneuf, Bozak, Lupul) have all made improvements this year.

You had to fill up the rest with one year contracts. Need to ice a team. Preserve cap flexibility for the future. Who would you have signed this offseason to a 3+ year deal?

Tanking only really affects a single pick (1st round), and with the new lottery it's not the guarantee it used to be. Plus, Mark Hunter has shown that he doesn't need high picks to find value. Why throw away the season for a marginally better pick and a less than 20% chance of a lottery win?

 

[Nithoniniel]

"Win Now" according to your definition is not something a team would ever do.

"Rebuilding" and "Tanking" are the same thing.

I refer you to this:

No team would ever trade their future season in order to be more competitive in the current season? You mean what a decent chunk of the league does every deadline?

Rebuilding is making moves to acquire future assets. Tanking is making moves to lower your place in the standings in order to get a higher draft pick.

Is that so hard to understand?

 

[Daisy Jane]

"Win Now" according to your definition is not something a team would ever do.

"Rebuilding" and "Tanking" are the same thing.

um

did you just become a fan of this team or something?

"win now" is what this team almost ALWAYS did. the problem was, they never won.

 

[catgoldfish]

I think the team is tanking this year. I really do. And by team I mean management, not Babcock or any of the coaching staff or players.

Rolling with Riemer/Bernier again, keeping talented younger players on the farm, not address last years not good enough personnel and filling up the rest with one year contracts, they are steering this ship intentionally towards as low a pick as is possible without making it obvious.

When you look at all the picks we have this coming draft, this is a very important year to NOT DO WELL!!

Maybe...... But watching this team night after night losing again and again is very hard. I can't even watch most games cause the goalies can't even stop a beach ball. And we can score worth crap. Feels bad man.

 

[King85Kong]

um

did you just become a fan of this team or something?

"win now" is what this team almost ALWAYS did. the problem was, they never won.

Ain't that the truth. Some bad memories

 

[Daisy Jane]

I think the term tanking is overused. Buffalo last year was definitely tanking, they made moves that had little purpose other than getting worse short-term.

Win Now: Actively trying to gain any edge to win in the present, regardless of effect on future.
Competing: Looking to strengthen the teams chances without hurting the most important future assets, unless the return is right.
Limbo: Dem peeps be lost.
Rebuilding: Making moves to reap the rewards years ahead, with little focus on now.
Tanking: Making moves to actively get worse now in an attempt to strengthen chances down the line.

i agree with this.
that's why I always get confused when ppl go we're tanking. we're not. if we're tanking we don't hire Babcock, we would get like... well Buffalo's roster.

 

[LV*]

This draft is also very good. Just finish last and ensure that we get a top 4 pick.

Tkachuk, Pulj, Cychyrun are all good players as well. We don't necessarily need Matthews (it would be awesome to get him though).

We need talent at every single position.

IMO, One of Marner/Nylander will definitely be our #1C if we don't pick Matthews.

You don't have to have players who put up PPG as long as you have solid players. With Babcock, you can bet that Nylander and Marner would be studs defensively.

Adding a D is going to help out tremendously because in the end that's what we need to get better at.

I'm also very high on Chychrun, I think he's going to be on the same level as Ekblad tbh.

If we get a top 2 pick we're going to get a superstar player, but I agree this draft looks good and I wouldn't hate getting one of the other guys. My preference right now is: Matthews, Chychrun, then Tkachuk/Puljujarvi/Laine all three big wingers that'd compliment Marner/Nylander very well imo...

And to your #1C point, I think Nylander may very well fill that hole, while Marner shifts to the wing.

 

[FlareKnight]

So far, so good tonight.

Columbus, Carolina and Buffalo getting wins isn't bad.

Some progress being had around us .

I'm also very high on Chychrun, I think he's going to be on the same level as Ekblad tbh.

If we get a top 2 pick we're going to get a superstar player, but I agree this draft looks good and I wouldn't hate getting one of the other guys. My preference right now is: Matthews, Chychrun, then Tkachuk/Puljujarvi/Laine all three big wingers that'd compliment Marner/Nylander very well imo...

And to your #1C point, I think Nylander may very well fill that hole, while Marner shifts to the wing.

Yeah, if we can get top 2 we are in amazing shape. But there is a lot of talent in that top section of the draft. If luck isn't on our side (which it often isn't) will count on Hunter and company at finding the perfect addition to the future roster from what is available.

 

[Stats01]

I think we'll get a top 3 pick. Outside of Columbus and Buffalo there isn't a worse team out there. Calgary and the Ducks will get back on track

 

[Pookie]

I refer you to this:

I challenge your reference.

Tanking and rebuilding are one in the same.

The NHL has enacted a draft lottery to discourage the lack of competitiveness by rebuilding teams. This highlights that tanking is a common practice amongst rebuilding teams. So much so, they needed to do something about it.

Rebuilding involves acquiring future assets and nothing has more value than a high draft pick.

While the draft lottery puts a few speed bumps in place, the reverse order nature of the draft essentially rewards rebuilding teams with better picks the worse they do. The rewards are still there.

Another facet is the whole notion of being a "seller" at the deadline. This is common practice yet by trading veterans you are making your team less competitive now, ie tanking.

Teams may not start the year trying to lose or aiming for a draft pick but all sellers are in essence tanking. They are giving up present assets with the goal of acquiring future assets knowing their team though bad, is not being immediately improved by the trade. They will not win more games as a result of the trade. They will likely win less, ie tanking. The bonus is that they are being rewarded with higher draft picks.

 

[91Stammer*]

Man watching these guys play makes me so anxious to have one of them. Tarasenko, Parise, Benn, Perry just tremendous wingers who grinds real hard to generate any kind of offense they can.

 

[MLG Ghost]

I challenge your reference.

Tanking and rebuilding are one in the same.

The NHL has enacted a draft lottery to discourage the lack of competitiveness by rebuilding teams. This highlights that tanking is a common practice amongst rebuilding teams. So much so, they needed to do something about it.

Rebuilding involves acquiring future assets and nothing has more value than a high draft pick.

While the draft lottery puts a few speed bumps in place, the reverse order nature of the draft essentially rewards rebuilding teams with better picks the worse they do. The rewards are still there.

Another facet is the whole notion of being a "seller" at the deadline. This is common practice yet by trading veterans you are making your team less competitive now, ie tanking.

Teams may not start the year trying to lose or aiming for a draft pick but all sellers are in essence tanking. They are giving up present assets with the goal of acquiring future assets knowing their team though bad, is not being immediately improved by the trade. They will not win more games as a result of the trade. They will likely win less, ie tanking. The bonus is that they are being rewarded with higher draft picks.

I don't really care what it is called as long as they stick with the program and the plan comes together. As I type this message, we now sit at 28th overall, tied with Calgary and Columbus. Both those teams should move past us as we move through the fall. Hopefully.

The team is not good, but are not an embarrassment to us right now. They are working and the young guys that we envison being here long term ( Reilly, Gardner, Kadri) and showing positive signs. The goaltending is , but whatever, that's a problem for the management guys to deal with in due course.

 

[dballislife2]

wow beauty night for the tank, hope it gets better

 

[HellasLEAF]

Who would they roll with if not Reimer and Bernier? The two have been able to perform as a 1A/1B setup in the past, no one would have predicted they'd be so bad to start this season.

I don't think it would have been hard to predict that Riemer/Bernier wouldn't be good enough to get this team into the playoffs or even give them a chance.

Keeping talented younger players on the farm is a rebuilding move, not a tanking one. It's very possible to believe that getting top ice time on the Marlies will be better for development than bottom 6 minutes in the NHL.

Keeping talented young players on the farm when they are outplaying their NHL counterparts is a rebuilding move and a tanking move all in one. Call it what you like.

How can they get rid of last year's not good enough personel if they're not getting any offers on them? And besides, those guys (Phaneuf, Bozak, Lupul) have all made improvements this year.

They have only moved Kessel from the core that has collapsed time and again. If they really wanted to make adjustments here they would have. They are willing to just let them play and hopefully increase their value. But in the end, they know, and we know, they aren't good enough.

You had to fill up the rest with one year contracts. Need to ice a team. Preserve cap flexibility for the future. Who would you have signed this offseason to a 3+ year deal?

Leaf management could have done any number of moves from scouring Europe/KHL, made trades or even promoted some of the more senior Maries players. They chose not too.

Tanking only really affects a single pick (1st round), and with the new lottery it's not the guarantee it used to be. Plus, Mark Hunter has shown that he doesn't need high picks to find value. Why throw away the season for a marginally better pick and a less than 20% chance of a lottery win?

Tanking improves all our picks. And we have a lot of picks in the early rounds. Have you checked? It's 2 firsts, 2 seconds, 2 thirds in the early going. The earlier they all are the better and they know it. This is the proper way to tank. Make it look like you are trying. Except we really, as a management group, didn't really try all that hard. And the results are showing.

 

[mallory67]

Oh, God ... if Montreal loses ... we have to get some champagne.
We already have Columbus, Buffalo and Carolina wins ...

 

[FlareKnight]

Oh, God ... if Montreal loses ... we have to get some champagne.
We already have Columbus, Buffalo and Carolina wins ...

Yeah, the only downer of the night is the Ducks. Just....what the heck is going on there?

 

[Nithoniniel]

I challenge your reference.

Tanking and rebuilding are one in the same.

The NHL has enacted a draft lottery to discourage the lack of competitiveness by rebuilding teams. This highlights that tanking is a common practice amongst rebuilding teams. So much so, they needed to do something about it.

Rebuilding involves acquiring future assets and nothing has more value than a high draft pick.

While the draft lottery puts a few speed bumps in place, the reverse order nature of the draft essentially rewards rebuilding teams with better picks the worse they do. The rewards are still there.

Another facet is the whole notion of being a "seller" at the deadline. This is common practice yet by trading veterans you are making your team less competitive now, ie tanking.

Teams may not start the year trying to lose or aiming for a draft pick but all sellers are in essence tanking. They are giving up present assets with the goal of acquiring future assets knowing their team though bad, is not being immediately improved by the trade. They will not win more games as a result of the trade. They will likely win less, ie tanking. The bonus is that they are being rewarded with higher draft picks.

Nobody said there were not similarities, and that they are not closely connected. There are differences in focus, and if there are differences then you might as well have different definitions.

Get rid of veterans with no clear long-term gain (as Buffalo did last year), and you are making tanking moves.
Trade veterans with clear long-term gain (like we did last year), and you are making rebuilding moves.

If Toronto wanted to tank, they wouldn't have brought in competitive players and staff. Their focus is clearly on the long-term directly, not indirectly via tearing down the present as much as possible.

I don't see why we shouldn't make a distinction between what Buffalo did or what the Pens did to get Lemieux, and what most rebuilding teams do.

 

[HellasLEAF]

Let's just drop the word tank. I don't think any team is tanking this year, there is no McDavid. Like an actual tank, like what Buffalo did last year.

We are satisfied with a mediocre roster for this season. This is the new tank.

 

[Ovate]

My concern with Calgary is that they have some good pieces that will be easy to sell off.

If they get rid of Wideman and Russell, their defensive depth is bad. If they get rid of Hudler, their offense takes a big hit. If they get rid of Hiller, they potentially give a rookie the #1 job (or call back Ramo, who's be horrible).

Whereas if the Leafs get rid of their impending UFAs, our defense is about the same, we still keep our better goalie, and we're only getting rid of bottom 6 forwards.

Calgary has the potential to be worse than us, post-deadline.

 

[91Kadri91*]

I think we'll get a top 3 pick. Outside of Columbus and Buffalo there isn't a worse team out there. Calgary and the Ducks will get back on track

I doubt it; they're not very good.

 

[gabeliscious]

My concern with Calgary is that they have some good pieces that will be easy to sell off.

If they get rid of Wideman and Russell, their defensive depth is bad. If they get rid of Hudler, their offense takes a big hit. If they get rid of Hiller, they potentially give a rookie the #1 job (or call back Ramo, who's be horrible).

Whereas if the Leafs get rid of their impending UFAs, our defense is about the same, we still keep our better goalie, and we're only getting rid of bottom 6 forwards.

Calgary has the potential to be worse than us, post-deadline.

impossible

even if calgary liquidates they have;
monohan
gudreau
bennet
brodie
hamilton
giordano

leafs have;
rielly
maybe kadri
maybe gardiner
jvr

i find it hard to see how calgary finishes with less points then the leafs. they may get better pic because of lottery but i prefer our chances.