Official 9th Baseball ATD Discussion Thread Part II

[le_sean]

I will say this in regard of certain Negro League ballplayers with respect to their placement in the draft, I've never understood why Josh Gibson goes so high (almost always top 10) but players like Oscar Charleston almost falls out of the top 100 despite the many accounts that he was the actual better player.

Well I mean you have a guy that supposedly hit like Hank Aaron and he played the most difficult position in the field, one not known for many offensive contributors.

Don't forget Gibson died at 35, he had more potential time to have a larger impact too. I mean he averaged a HR every 10.6 AB.

 

[bluesfan94]

Oh come on. LLWS is hardly indicative of anything and the Olympics occur in the middle of the MLB season so pretty much no one goes. Let's not go crazy with our arguments. WBC is better but, again, so many players miss it. Yes, they're talented.

I didn't know that about the history of NPB/MLB relations but even still, i like Negro League players made a big impact upon their arrival. And not just a few but many. I'm not saying I completely discount NPB players. But there's a reason Kaneda goes here and Paige goes where he goes.

A lot of it is also based on information available. There are a ton of reports in newspapers discussing the play of Negro League stars. There's a lot less on NPB players.

 

[bluesfan94]

Gibson has the unique ability to fill a catcher spot with a clean up hitter. That's uber valuable in this format. Maybe Piazza can do that as well but then you have to field (pun intended) questions about his throwing, etc. Gibson had a good arm by most accounts.

With respect to Charleston, I've always pictured him as a Puckett, at his peak, type of player, for a much longer timeframe, that's a very elite player. The fact that he moved to LF and then 1B tells me he was perhaps not the elite defender some make him out to be but certainly above average. He fell hard in this iteration for some reason.

Yeah, normally Charleston goes higher. I took him mid 50s last draft.

 

[Pwnasaurus]

and Paige goes where he goes.

He was a 3 Win player in MLB at 46 years old.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Oh come on. LLWS is hardly indicative of anything and the Olympics occur in the middle of the MLB season so pretty much no one goes. Let's not go crazy with our arguments. WBC is better but, again, so many players miss it. Yes, they're talented.

I didn't know that about the history of NPB/MLB relations but even still, i like Negro League players made a big impact upon their arrival. And not just a few but many. I'm not saying I completely discount NPB players. But there's a reason Kaneda goes here and Paige goes where he goes.

A lot of it is also based on information available. There are a ton of reports in newspapers discussing the play of Negro League stars. There's a lot less on NPB players.

There's a TON of information, and it's all concrete, no need to sift through legend and hyperbole and you know exactly who played against who and when and where. This part comes down to how much research you want to do and how much you want to use Google Translator.

Again, I was using the LLWS, Olympics, and WBS to show that baseball isn't some new revelation in Japan. It's as big a part of their culture as it is in American culture. I wanted to show some background of their legacy in the game as a whole. I wasn't trying to say that these accolades show that they are all MLB stars.

 

[Tecumseh]

Well I mean you have a guy that supposedly hit like Hank Aaron and he played the most difficult position in the field, one not known for many offensive contributors.

Don't forget Gibson died at 35, he had more potential time to have a larger impact too. I mean he averaged a HR every 10.6 AB.

And Charleston was commonly compared with Ty Cobb. That he came before Paige and Gibson and even Cool Papa when documentation on the Negro Leagues is far less reliable probably hurts his draft stock. Gibson has a lot of these mythical stories about him that can never be verified but so do all of the Negro League stars I named.

 

[le_sean]

He was a 3 Win player in MLB at 46 years old.

I really wonder how much it irked people to be struck out by a black man back then.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I really wonder how much it irked people to be struck out by a black man back then.

Cobb is still rolling over in his grave....

 

[bluesfan94]

There's a TON of information, and it's all concrete, no need to sift through legend and hyperbole and you know exactly who played against who and when and where. This part comes down to how much research you want to do and how much you want to use Google Translator.

Again, I was using the LLWS, Olympics, and WBS to show that baseball isn't some new revelation in Japan. It's as big a part of their culture as it is in American culture. I wanted to show some background of their legacy in the game as a whole. I wasn't trying to say that these accolades show that they are all MLB stars.

And if people want to draft Japanese players, I think it's incumbent on them to do that research and provide it. I drafted a ton of non-MLB players last year and I did my best to provide that information. I've made bios for old time hockey players and sifted through tons of old newspapers on google archives. But just having statistics doesn't mean much.

I understand that it's a big part of their culture - I never doubted that. But that's not necessarily enough to say anything about the quality of their players.

 

[le_sean]

And Charleston was commonly compared with Ty Cobb. That he came before Paige and Gibson and even Cool Papa when documentation on the Negro Leagues is far less reliable probably hurts his draft stock. Gibson has a lot of these mythical stories about him that can never be verified but so do all of the Negro League stars I named.

Yeah maybe Charleston should have been picked higher. But I mean you have Mays, Cobb, Griffey, Speaker, Mantle, DiMaggio as CF options. At catcher you have Bench and Berra and neither, while having great power for catchers, had the supposed power that Gibson had.

 

[Winger for Hire]

And if people want to draft Japanese players, I think it's incumbent on them to do that research and provide it. I drafted a ton of non-MLB players last year and I did my best to provide that information. I've made bios for old time hockey players and sifted through tons of old newspapers on google archives. But just having statistics doesn't mean much.

I understand that it's a big part of their culture - I never doubted that. But that's not necessarily enough to say anything about the quality of their players.

I'm just giving you the info you asked for above the bio/write-up I provided in my pick. I gave you more than statistics. I gave you comps from people who have made livings doing this stuff. I gave you how his MLEs break down.

As someone who took a similar route last year with a bunch of non-MLB players, if this was the info you provided to the members of the draft, what else would you add? Or are you just dead set on NPB is on par with the Frontier League?

I know I might be risking turning people off by repeating myself, but I find it hard to swallow going off of a lot of incomplete records, mixed with legends and exaggerations in parks we're not even sure had fences at decent distances, against players we're not sure of is more of a gold standard than actual complete records and known players, stadiums, leagues. And, as I keep stating, I say this not to crap on or diminish these players.

 

[bluesfan94]

I'm just giving you the info you asked for above the bio/write-up I provided in my pick. I gave you more than statistics. I gave you comps from people who have made livings doing this stuff. I gave you how his MLEs break down.

As someone who took a similar route last year with a bunch of non-MLB players, if this was the info you provided to the members of the draft, what else would you add? Or are you just dead set on NPB is on par with the Frontier League?

It's just hard for me to compare because I don't have the primary sources. With a bunch of NEL guys, there's writers who covered both who made direct comparisons. I don't have that with NPB. There's also, for whatever the reason may be, a lot less integration. Satchel Paige, I know, was a 3 WAR pitcher in the majors at 46. I can extrapolate that better. It's easier for me. With NPB, there aren't really examples like that. Pitchers coming from Japan now are hit or miss in the MLB even if they were great in Japan. I don't know what it would have been like in the 50s and 60s.

What I would add are contemporaneous accounts that directly compare the two. Not after the fact analysis by people who haven't actually seen them play. I also think you're underestimating where I hold Kaneda. I think he's a strong #4, borderline #3 guy. But you seem dead set on creating the straw man that I believe NPB is on par with the Frontier League. Meanwhile, all I said was that arguing that the NPB is good because we have statistics and because they played professionally is a false argument.

 

[Winger for Hire]

It's just hard for me to compare because I don't have the primary sources. With a bunch of NEL guys, there's writers who covered both who made direct comparisons. I don't have that with NPB. There's also, for whatever the reason may be, a lot less integration. Satchel Paige, I know, was a 3 WAR pitcher in the majors at 46. I can extrapolate that better. It's easier for me. With NPB, there aren't really examples like that. Pitchers coming from Japan now are hit or miss in the MLB even if they were great in Japan. I don't know what it would have been like in the 50s and 60s.

What I would add are contemporaneous accounts that directly compare the two. Not after the fact analysis by people who haven't actually seen them play. I also think you're underestimating where I hold Kaneda. I think he's a strong #4, borderline #3 guy. But you seem dead set on creating the straw man that I believe NPB is on par with the Frontier League. Meanwhile, all I said was that arguing that the NPB is good because we have statistics and because they played professionally is a false argument.

I don't mean to come off as attacking you BTW, I sometimes let emotions bleed out into writing.

 

[bluesfan94]

I don't mean to come off as attacking you BTW, I sometimes let emotions bleed out into writing.

Oh no worries. And i don't know mean to come off as attacking you either.

 

[UL Washington]

I look at Josh Gibson as a Jimmie Foxx who was a catcher. Quite frankly, you can make a case for him going #1 overall if you agree with that assessment.

 

[Winger for Hire]

 

[le_sean]

It's been 8 hours. I'm going to go ahead and select.

 

[Tecumseh]

Yeah maybe Charleston should have been picked higher. But I mean you have Mays, Cobb, Griffey, Speaker, Mantle, DiMaggio as CF options. At catcher you have Bench and Berra and neither, while having great power for catchers, had the supposed power that Gibson had.

I look at Josh Gibson as a Jimmie Foxx who was a catcher. Quite frankly, you can make a case for him going #1 overall if you agree with that assessment.

Not saying Gibson should go any lower than he does but I do feel that Charleston should get a bit more respect but I can see position scarcity and lack of exposure contribute to the typical 50-100 spot he goes every year. I only wonder where Gibson would go if his primary position was first base instead of catcher for example.

 

[UL Washington]

I think some of it has to do with reputation. Even as a youngster, not really comprehending the idea of a Negro League, I knew the names Paige and Gibson...and nobody else. I think Bill James's rankings elevated Charleston up in a lot of hardcore baseball fans minds...or at least got people to look deeper at his numbers...but the average baseball fan still has no idea who Charleston is.

 

[ryan callahan]

If players from other league are so highly considered, why does Oh drop so much every year.

 

[NJDevs26]

Also partly due to position...there's a lot of first basemen so people wait on picking them and there are plenty of MLB-proven sure things to go around. Oh is still the only name most people know from Japanese baseball pre-1990's, and that's only because of the home run total. I had never heard of Kaneda till I saw his name posted in prior drafts.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I'm docking Voight points for not using a Tom Emanski picture for the Crime Dog

And as for other players... I feel I can take a risk with a 4th starter and bench player to try and get the waters warm for a year or two before I go fishing for starters.

 

[ryan callahan]

Didn't really know Kaneda but wow he was a stud now that I look at it.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Didn't really know Kaneda but wow he was a stud now that I look at it.

And to top it off, he was only 6 foot 180lbs, though I've seen some sources list 165lbs. And being able to pump it up into the mid to high 90s.

The Japanese Freak

 

[Porn*]

I was eyeing Oh