Official 9th Baseball ATD Discussion Thread Part II

le_sean

Registered User
Oct 21, 2006
41,883
44,908
And then there's the fact I don't think you drafted Winny for his glove.

No I certainly didn't but I do feel comfortable with him starting. He's a great bench option.

I mean maybe someone that watched him can enlighten me, but is there any reason Manny Ramirez would have a (albeit slightly) lower dWAR than Winfield? I mean he was an absolute joke and liability in LF whereas Dave could actually make spectacular plays.
 

NJDevs26

Once upon a time...
Mar 21, 2007
68,457
33,909
With these lineups, I don't I see my manager going 5 or 6 deep from the bench in any one game. But pitching match ups? Yeah, you don't want to burn out arms in the pen, so I want to manage arms. While bench players? there is no such concern of over usage. If anything, the opposite. Finding playing time to keep them active and loose. As these guys are used to playing everyday.



Definitely will take a modern approach with pitching, and give Bochy full use of a big pen, should he need it or want special match ups.

Honestly I think the bolded is getting a little too technical. Everyone is in the same boat vis-a-vis having career regulars be bench/part time players in this Field of Dreams league. I'm going off the premise you're getting the top level of everyone whether it's starting or off the bench, barring something crazy like having catchers play CF or having a nine man rotation. It's just too hard to figure out who would adjust and how much playing time they need. You could even argue career DH's like Ortiz or Edgar would struggle going from four AB's a night to one under the different role premise.

I do think there's some validity to having a 12-man staff in general but I feel it's a better fit for the regular season as opposed to the playoffs when you'd have the eighth pitcher compared to 4.5 bench players (the .5 being backup catcher), along with ace starters that generally are going 6+ innings.
 

bluesfan94

Registered User
Jan 7, 2008
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St. Louis
@Pwn

Can we have a sort of lineup assassination thread to discuss the other teams before we vote? Otherwise I'll just post my analysis of the teams in here assuming I have the time. After my next (and final) pick, I'm going to try to sell my team
 

td_ice

Peter shows the way
Aug 13, 2005
33,259
3,771
USA
Honestly I think the bolded is getting a little too technical. Everyone is in the same boat vis-a-vis having career regulars be bench/part time players in this Field of Dreams league. I'm going off the premise you're getting the top level of everyone whether it's starting or off the bench, barring something crazy like having catchers play CF or having a nine man rotation. It's just too hard to figure out who would adjust and how much playing time they need. You could even argue career DH's like Ortiz or Edgar would struggle going from four AB's a night to one under the different role premise.

I do think there's some validity to having a 12-man staff in general but I feel it's a better fit for the regular season as opposed to the playoffs when you'd have the eighth pitcher compared to 4.5 bench players (the .5 being backup catcher), along with ace starters that generally are going 6+ innings.

I totally hear ya. Was just posting my philosophy on going 12 pen/5 bench, vs. 11 pen/6 bench, since I went that way this ATD. And posting my players to show the thought process behind it.
 

UL Washington

Registered User
Jun 5, 2008
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0
I think most people's ranking of my team will be heavily dependent on their knowledge of Smokey Joe Williams. I rolled the dice and put him as my ace as I feel he's deserving of that status, but I know some people aren't comfortable effectively judging negro league players.

I fear Williams gets lumped into the "not a true ace" category the same way Kid Nichols does, even though both are worthy of the "Ace" label in my opinion. I mean I wouldn't put either in the upper echelon of Aces, but have both in the Spahn/Feller territory, if not above.
 

bluesfan94

Registered User
Jan 7, 2008
31,702
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St. Louis
I think most people's ranking of my team will be heavily dependent on their knowledge of Smokey Joe Williams. I rolled the dice and put him as my ace as I feel he's deserving of that status, but I know some people aren't comfortable effectively judging negro league players.

I fear Williams gets lumped into the "not a true ace" category the same way Kid Nichols does, even though both are worthy of the "Ace" label in my opinion. I mean I wouldn't put either in the upper echelon of Aces, but have both in the Spahn/Feller territory, if not above.

He was my two last year, so I know a fair amount about him, but I'll probably delve into a little bit more research. This is the fun part for me. From what I remember, he comes off more as an ace in a larger draft or a 2 in this format, albeit a high end 2

I'll also be researching my players a lot to help everyone out when I lay out my team. Which I might start now.
 
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bluesfan94

Registered User
Jan 7, 2008
31,702
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St. Louis
The St. Louis Maroons

General Overview


This team is designed around one central philosophy - run prevention. The Maroons should have, by far, the best staff in the league. Rube Waddell is a top 10 lefty in history and he's my #4. Four of my five starters are in the top 6 in FIP. Their players are all strong defensively - that was a key component in shaping the draft. How strong? Well, my starting 8 combines for 15 gold gloves. That might not seem impressive, but four of the players were never eligible for gold gloves, and most of those players are generally considered good defenders. Offensively, the team lacks that one star, but is deep. Everyone can get on base and hit for some power. Kiner also does bring a big bat in the middle of the lineup, having led in HR 7 times in his career. The bench has some power and speed from both sides of the plate as well as more plus defenders. The bullpen has some of the best lefties of all time as well as a top-3 all time closer. All in all, even in an all time setting, this team should be very hard to score on and should score enough to win games.

Starting Lineup

Catcher - Mickey Cochrane
The fun part about Mickey Cochrane is that I'm reuniting him with his real life ace, Lefty Grove. These two were one of the best batteries of all time, if not the best. Cochrane was known for his competitive spirit which makes him the perfect field general for this team. His teammates called him an inspirational leader and he put that leadership to good use, winning 3 World Series titles and 5 pennants. More than just a great leader, though, Cochrane was a fantastic player. Offensively, he wasn't the hardest hitter (few catchers are), but he got on base. He had a career .320 average and a career .419 OBP, the highest of any catcher (at least those qualified for JAWS). While a team statistic, he also average 91 RBI a year, which is solid for a catcher. That said, what really made Cochrane stand out wasn't his offensive prowess. Instead, he was most well known for his ability to handle a pitching staff. Pitchers hardly ever shook him off. Together, his offensive abilities and especially his defensive talents won Cochrane two MVP awards, finishing top-10 on four other occasions.

As SABR describes him:


In my lineup, at least against righties, Cochrane will be batting leadoff. His high OBP makes him the perfect candidate for this job. Defensively, his knack for bettering pitching staffs should only serve to magnify the impact my already great rotation will have.

First Baseman - Buck Leonard
Buck Leonard is the first of my Negro League players, at least when organized this way. Buck Leonard is one of the best players in Negro League history and has been compared to Lou Gehrig. I don't think that comparison is necessarily accurate. His offense wasn't quite as good although his defense was probably better. I think the better comparison is a left handed Jeff Bagwell. He wasn't big, but he had a quick, compact stroke that was capable of generating a lot of easy power. He also was considered a good defender. He was known as a consummate professional and a fantastic defender. He played on the same team as Gibson and they often traded off who had more RBI or HR.

From SABR:


In my lineup, Leonard will fill his comfortable 4th spot in the lineup and be counted on as another leader and strong defender - the same role he played to perfection in real life.

Second Baseman - Chase Utley
Third Baseman - Graig Nettles
Shortstop - Barry Larkin
Left Fielder - Ralph Kiner
Center Fielder - Cristobal Torriente
Known as the "Black Babe Ruth" (for those keeping score at home, I now have the black Lou Gehrig and the black Babe Ruth), Torriente was a true 5 tool player. In fact, he outplayed Ruth in a nine game series between the Yankees and Torriente's Cuban team. He didn't look like he'd be that fast with his stocky build, but he ran the bases quite well and was a great defender - so good that he forced Oscar Charleston to a corner outfield spot when the two played with one another. In terms of hitting, Torriente hit for average and power. He was a bad ball hitter primarily with great power to all fields; he'll be a hard out even for lefty specialists. According to the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum (which I really need to get to at some point...):


In my lineup, Torriente will be hitting second. Given Cochrane's ability to get on base, there'll likely be a man on base for him, which he was used to. I like having some power and some speed in the two hole and Torriente fits that mold perfectly. His penchant for hitting for a high average and getting on base, as well as his easy power, should allow for him to drive home a fair number of runs even in the two hole and provide a speedy runner for the heart of the lineup.
Right Fielder - Al Kaline

Starting Rotation
Lefty Grove
Christy Mathewson
Ed Walsh
Rube Waddell
Chief Bender
Chief Bender is an older pitcher who was a dominant FIP pitcher. Furthermore, he was dominant in big games. Bender broke into the big leagues as a 19 year old and was immediately a good pitcher and just got better over the next ten or so years. Connie Mack called him the best pitcher that he had ever managed, a stable that includes two of my other pitchers (Lefty Grove and Rube Waddell) as well as other great pitchers such as Eddie Plank. He was known for his control, rarely walking a batter, and for his intelligence on the mound. SABR describes his pitches thusly:



The amazing thing about Bender on my team is that he's my fifth starter. He probably could be as good as a #3 in this format, if not even better.

Bench

Bullpen

Manager - Joe Torre
 
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Pwnasaurus

Registered User
Feb 21, 2003
8,124
0
Robot City
@Pwn

Can we have a sort of lineup assassination thread to discuss the other teams before we vote? Otherwise I'll just post my analysis of the teams in here assuming I have the time. After my next (and final) pick, I'm going to try to sell my team

Go for it. We can make this thread all-encompassing.
 

NJDevs26

Once upon a time...
Mar 21, 2007
68,457
33,909
Go for it. We can make this thread all-encompassing.

I assumed that's what this thread was for post-draft anyway.

I'm not sure how I'll even do a self-preview, I don't want to overdo it and put so much data nobody'll read it anyway :P Linking my players to the pick writeups in the roster thread (and then linking the roster thread to the preview) help a little in that regard, I won't have to do as much in the actual overall preview, maybe it'll just be more of an overview.
 
Oct 18, 2011
44,245
10,129
When I look team's benches, I don't care as much about individual players, I more focus on the overall composition. Is there a good mix of lefty/righty hitters? Is every position covered off with a capable backup? Are there is good mix of speed guys vs. power guys? etc. If the answer is yes to those questions, the bench will get top marks from me.
Same, need variety and players who can serve different roles, that's wht i picked Erstad and Dunn. Cant have 5-6 of the same guy
 

ryan callahan

Registered User
Jan 25, 2014
2,052
1,819
Québec,Canada
Wanted Bochy, but I'll take Goldschmidt happily since I think he's one of the best hitter left with somewhat of a good consistent track record.
EDIT: as well he is going to bat 4th in the lineup vs lefties with that career 175 WRC+ against them southpaws
 
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Winger for Hire

Praise Beebo
Dec 9, 2013
13,058
1,692
Quarantine Zone 5
I think my team is pretty self explanatory. I was able to build a pretty traditional lineup (power in the middle, OBP/speed at the top, and contract at the bottom). Stargell and Molitor are my two "liabilities" with the glove, but neither are butchers. There's also enough position flexibility to move them around and in and out of the lineup (Molitor can easily be hidden at 2nd with Pujols sliding across the infield, Stargell to first and Doby, Magee, Harimoto taking over in LF with Fox taking a seat until the late innings).

The rotation is pretty much straight forward as well. Seaver is the hammer at the top, Fergie is a pretty high end #2, Johan is an underrated Koufax-lite, Kaneda/Cone slide in as a workhorses at the back end with Walters being able to take some spot starts.

I opted for the extra arm in the pen because of 1) the versatility of my hitters and 2) having two pitchers that can handle some (light) pinch hitting (Walters- .243 with 23 HRs in 1966 ABs and Kaneda- .198 with 38 HRs in 2054 ABs). Any of my top 4 pen arms can handle closing out games. I won't shy away from using Franco in the 9th if the match-ups are right. Teke is capable of multi inning outings. Kline and Howe can both be used as either lefty specialists or as full inning guys, even against right handed heavy innings. The extra arm and 3 lefties lets me get creative.

I think the bench really compliments my starters. Torre's (and Mauer's) flexibility lets me play both my catchers on "rest" days and not worry about removing one as whichever one can slide behind the dish. Hanley can handle the left side of the dirt and Doby, Magee, Harimoto can all cover any OF position. What about a back-up 2B you ask? Well, Lloyd and Molitor can both play there when Nellie needs a blow. I have a pretty balanced offensive bench as well, with 3 righties and 2 lefties. Magee and Harimoto both boast very good wheels (400+ and 300+ SBs) and Hanley has 2 50+ SB seasons under his belt and is approaching 300 for his career. Torre, Doby, and Hanley all provide home run power off then bench. Doby is the low average man off the bench, with a .283 batting average.

All in all I think the Yomiuri Giants are a pretty well balanced team. No big holes and can adapt to any kind of playing style from Long Ball to Small Ball, this team is built to give other teams fits trying to match-up.
 

ryan callahan

Registered User
Jan 25, 2014
2,052
1,819
Québec,Canada
I didn't have a plan from the start of the draft and that didn't change but I think I got a really solid team at the end of the day. I have an above average rotation imo while my lineup is solidly balanced with speedy guys like Carew and Henderson and power with Walker and Bonds. I have a few elite defenders mixed up with decent defenders (the elite ones being Carter, Ripken, Sandberg and Walker). My bench looks solid with a few power and contact options in Oh, Delahanty and Goldschmidt with defensive wizards in Lou Whitaker and Pee Wee Reese that might take over in difficult situations. My bullpen is definitly the weakness but I think Spahn, Three Fingers and Keefe especially are good enough workhorse and Kimbrel, Nathan and Soria is a decent modern bullpen with Reuschel being a prime 6th starter with 60+ career WAR. Overall I am satisfied even tho looking back I had a bad pick in Henderson in the 2nd round picking two left fielders per say but I think hell be fine in center.
 

Winger for Hire

Praise Beebo
Dec 9, 2013
13,058
1,692
Quarantine Zone 5
I'm not starting Pujols at third, I was just merely stating that I could move my defensive lineup around to put out an ultra-offensive lineup. I'm not starting him there or even doing it frequently. Just laying out options of an all-bat lineup.
 

NJDevs26

Once upon a time...
Mar 21, 2007
68,457
33,909
I'll pick in a little bit since it's been almost eight hours between the last pick and now.
 

bluesfan94

Registered User
Jan 7, 2008
31,702
8,624
St. Louis
People are doing really weird **** this draft.

Yup. I think a player needs at least 1500 IP to really say they played a position for me to not dock pretty heavy points and really a lot more than that for me to not punish the team at all in my rankings. ****, with Pujols, he's nominally played 2B and SS in his career but I'm not gonna say he plays any of those positions. The only exception is if you plan on moving a CF/RF to LF.
 

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