Blue Jays Discussion: Off-Season Pt III | Winter meetings are over. Still waiting for stuff to happen
- Thread starter The Nemesis
- Start date
- Status
As someone who used to audit the Blue Jays, while this may be true from an accounting perspective, it is completely untrue from a payroll budgeting perspective which is done on a cash basis.
Things could have changed in the past few years but I highly, highly doubt it.
That's exactly what I was thinking. The Martin contract, in particular, comes to mind: they were close to maxing out their budget for the 2015 season and had more space available going forward, so they backloaded it in order to fit within each season's budget.
TheBeastCoast
Registered User
That makes absolutely zero sense logically. Do you have anything to back that up? Why exactly would the actual cash flow not matter? To any business really.
There is a strong case to be made that a player signed for more than 1 year is a capital asset, not an operating expense.
If that is the case, the team would account for the player over time regardless of how they pay the player.
Over a period of multiple years, cash flow becomes redundant (because more spent in one means less in another for a multi-year asset).
I know that the team did run the payroll as an operating expense previously, but everything the Sportsnet guys have said about controlling term lines up with having little benefit to a front loaded contract.
If this weren't the case, we could front load 1 guy, back load 1 guy, go heavy in the middle on 1 guy and spread over time.
The other thing that tells me that we do this is when the team talks about contracts, they talk about commitment over time, not year to year numbers.
Also, if it didn't matter to them, they would just massively front-load every contract and get anyone to sign. You want Springer? Sure! Offer him $120 million in year one and four years at league minimum. There's no way he turns that down.
dredeye
BJ Elitist/Hipster
- Mar 3, 2008
- 27,649
- 3,364
BlueForever75
Registered User
- Oct 4, 2017
- 5,692
- 2,303
Agreed. It is like what the Leafs do to outbid American teams. You front load the contract and sell players that they can make more on their deal with Jays then other teams cause they can take that money upfront and invest to grow their money.
So a deal front loaded for a total of 120 million in actuality can become 150 million after 4 years if they invest their front loaded payments for 4 years.
Woodman19
Registered User
- Jun 14, 2008
- 18,704
- 2,272
Somehow I don't think there is a CCA class to human property to write off your depreciation over the life of the deal.
Probably. Wouldn't be the first time.
I don't know much at all about accounting, so I don't pay a lot of attention to that side of it. But... isn't that basically what's being suggested here? That the Jays don't treat, say, 121/1/1/1/1 and 25/25/25/25/25 any differently?
SDig14
Registered User
The points seem to be the Blue Jays in on Sugano, may have best offer, but doesn't look like he's coming to North America as not getting his price.
And they think the Mets are only team able to pay Lindor? Dodgers were in before Betts and before Seager came back healthy and elite again.
BlueForever75
Registered User
- Oct 4, 2017
- 5,692
- 2,303
To be honest if Lindor is asking for a 300 million dollar deal. That translates to 30-35 million per year. I would rather have 2 players for that amount due to us already having one of the top young shortstops in MLB in Bichette.
For that money you can get a great outfielder or pitcher or infielder or combination of the 2. Shortstop really isnt a need for us in the immediate future.
Not to mention next years FA class will be filled with SS options if indeed you wanted to get a new one. Story and Baez would definitely come in cheaper then Lindor.
Woodman19
Registered User
- Jun 14, 2008
- 18,704
- 2,272
Agreed, it's super easy to get players to take our money to play here that it would be foolish to ever trade for top talent.
I don't think Springer accepts that tbh.
Also, while the cash flow is irrelevant over time, a significant outflow in a single year would still require ownership approval.
Rogers likely wouldn't care if we spend 170 on a 150 payroll if they had assurances that it is offset in a future year.
Spending 250 is still not going to be an easy sell under any conditions.
Cca and depreciation are not the same thing.
Cca is to spread the deal for tax purposes. Depreciation is to spread it for accounting purposes.
Yeah, doesn't seem like a capital asset but it could be a prepaid asset as it is an advanced payment for services in future periods.
There is a principle in accounting called the matching principle, where you match the expense to the period in which in generates revenues. So you pay the money out but don't include it in expenses when calculating profits. The money stays on the balance sheet and is expensed over the term of the contract.
121/1/1/1/1 is too extreme though, it's not that cash flow doesn't matter at all, it does for a variety of reasons.
its that smaller fluctionations in cash flows like say 35/35/20/20/15 wouldn't have too material an impact on the financial performance of the team, but does provide the player with a benefit.
I beleive actual amount paid is what is used luxury tax calucations.
BlueForever75
Registered User
- Oct 4, 2017
- 5,692
- 2,303
I take it you dont agree. But thats cool. In the end when you already have a top young player at a position, it would be foolish in my eyes to spend money and assets on another one for the same position when you have holes to fill other places around the diamond.
Now if your talking about signing someone like Realmuto to replace a Jansen who would still have value on the trade market to fill other areas. Im for that, as your upgrading multiple positions and using the dollars wisely. But I do not see that big of a gap in a healthy Bichette to a Lindor at SS. Not enough to move the needle to a contender.
Possible Francisco Lindor trades, Yu Darvish, Blake Snell deals – The Athletic
The problem is finding the right suitor for Lindor, or any suitor for that matter. The Mets, Blue Jays, Giants and Twins are among the handful of teams willing to spend, but any team interested in making a move at shortstop can choose from a variety of alternatives in this free-agent class (Marcus Semien, Didi Gregorius, Andrelton Simmons) and the next (Lindor, Javier Báez, Carlos Correa, Corey Seager, Trevor Story).
The Mets and Blue Jays currently appear more focused on free agents at other positions. The Giants are not in a rush to add a shortstop with Brandon Crawford under contract for one more season at $15 million and possessing a full no-trade clause. The Twins might balk at paying the premium that likely would be necessary to acquire Lindor from a division rival.
Of those teams, the Mets might be the only one in the position the Dodgers were with Betts, possessing both the wherewithal and major-market status to persuade Lindor to sign long-term. The Jays could make the same pitch, but for a player born in Puerto Rico, Toronto might not hold the same appeal as New York.
Even in pre-pandemic times, the Red Sox had only two clubs interested in Betts, the Dodgers and Padres. All the Indians need is one, and the Blue Jays, run by former Cleveland executives Mark Shapiro and Ross Atkins, would appear a prime candidate if they strike out in free agency, and perhaps even if they don’t. But the Jays, like the Mets, do not have a particular need at shortstop. And teams are hesitant to trade inexpensive young talent with parks expected to open at limited capacity for at least the start of ’21, creating potential shortfalls in revenue for the second straight season.
If the Indians fail to get the deal they want, they could hold Lindor until the trade deadline and clear immediate money by moving right-hander Carlos Carrasco, who is owed $24 million over the next two seasons, plus a $3 million buyout. But that strategy, too, would entail risk. Lindor might slump in the first half or suffer an injury. The game’s economic landscape might remain cloudy. Potential buyers at the deadline might prefer to address other needs.
For the Indians, the perfect storm remains elusive, if possible at all.
Sugano still deciding
Thursday is the final day of Japanese right-hander Tomoyuki Sugano’s posting period, and his return to the Yomiuri Giants cannot be ruled out as long as he remains without a major-league deal. The Giants have offered him a four-year contract with opt outs after each season, a structure that would enable him to re-enter the major-league free-agent market next offseason.
Sugano, 31, arrived in the United States on Monday, increasing speculation he was about to join a major-league club. But he seems intent on getting the value he believes he deserves as a two-time winner of the Sawamura Award, Japan’s version of the Cy Young. After producing a 1.97 ERA in 137 1/3 innings in 2020, he loomed as one of the top pitchers on the open market, perhaps behind only Trevor Bauer.
Left-hander Yusei Kikuchi, a less accomplished but younger Japanese pitcher, agreed to a four-year, $56 million free-agent contract with the Mariners in January 2019. In addition, the Mariners paid a $10.275 million posting fee. Sugano presumably would want a similar if not better deal, and while some in the industry believe the Blue Jays made a strong bid, he apparently is not getting his desired number.
The problem is finding the right suitor for Lindor, or any suitor for that matter. The Mets, Blue Jays, Giants and Twins are among the handful of teams willing to spend, but any team interested in making a move at shortstop can choose from a variety of alternatives in this free-agent class (Marcus Semien, Didi Gregorius, Andrelton Simmons) and the next (Lindor, Javier Báez, Carlos Correa, Corey Seager, Trevor Story).
The Mets and Blue Jays currently appear more focused on free agents at other positions. The Giants are not in a rush to add a shortstop with Brandon Crawford under contract for one more season at $15 million and possessing a full no-trade clause. The Twins might balk at paying the premium that likely would be necessary to acquire Lindor from a division rival.
Of those teams, the Mets might be the only one in the position the Dodgers were with Betts, possessing both the wherewithal and major-market status to persuade Lindor to sign long-term. The Jays could make the same pitch, but for a player born in Puerto Rico, Toronto might not hold the same appeal as New York.
Even in pre-pandemic times, the Red Sox had only two clubs interested in Betts, the Dodgers and Padres. All the Indians need is one, and the Blue Jays, run by former Cleveland executives Mark Shapiro and Ross Atkins, would appear a prime candidate if they strike out in free agency, and perhaps even if they don’t. But the Jays, like the Mets, do not have a particular need at shortstop. And teams are hesitant to trade inexpensive young talent with parks expected to open at limited capacity for at least the start of ’21, creating potential shortfalls in revenue for the second straight season.
If the Indians fail to get the deal they want, they could hold Lindor until the trade deadline and clear immediate money by moving right-hander Carlos Carrasco, who is owed $24 million over the next two seasons, plus a $3 million buyout. But that strategy, too, would entail risk. Lindor might slump in the first half or suffer an injury. The game’s economic landscape might remain cloudy. Potential buyers at the deadline might prefer to address other needs.
For the Indians, the perfect storm remains elusive, if possible at all.
Sugano still deciding
Thursday is the final day of Japanese right-hander Tomoyuki Sugano’s posting period, and his return to the Yomiuri Giants cannot be ruled out as long as he remains without a major-league deal. The Giants have offered him a four-year contract with opt outs after each season, a structure that would enable him to re-enter the major-league free-agent market next offseason.
Sugano, 31, arrived in the United States on Monday, increasing speculation he was about to join a major-league club. But he seems intent on getting the value he believes he deserves as a two-time winner of the Sawamura Award, Japan’s version of the Cy Young. After producing a 1.97 ERA in 137 1/3 innings in 2020, he loomed as one of the top pitchers on the open market, perhaps behind only Trevor Bauer.
Left-hander Yusei Kikuchi, a less accomplished but younger Japanese pitcher, agreed to a four-year, $56 million free-agent contract with the Mariners in January 2019. In addition, the Mariners paid a $10.275 million posting fee. Sugano presumably would want a similar if not better deal, and while some in the industry believe the Blue Jays made a strong bid, he apparently is not getting his desired number.
phillipmike
Registered User
- Oct 27, 2009
- 12,984
- 9,186
These 2 teams could be Lindor trade partners
Its like the Mets and Jays have the same targets and plans A, B and C for the off-season. One is waiting for the other to make a move and vice versa.
Its like the Mets and Jays have the same targets and plans A, B and C for the off-season. One is waiting for the other to make a move and vice versa.
phillipmike
Registered User
- Oct 27, 2009
- 12,984
- 9,186
Da Cool Rula
Registered User
phillipmike
Registered User
- Oct 27, 2009
- 12,984
- 9,186
- Status
