Blue Jays Discussion: Off-Season III: Ray/Semien out, Gausman in. Jays linked to everyone. Labor strife happening.

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

I dont like Ryu is a perfectly valid opinion (shared by more than a few here who are worried that a drop off is coming). The issue is that you tried to qualify it and people were correcting the qualification. In any situation, your opinion could be wrong (same with anyone else), but people tend correct evidence which is incorrect in case it tangibly changes opinions.

I'll give you credit for the feilding stats comparison, and yes Ryu put up a good era in that 2019 year and I question then why the Dodgers didn't do more to resign him then if he was that good. Obviously I saw the numbers and thought he was decent hence at the time Jays got him I was ok, but I never watched him pitch before and when I saw him pitch his first year as a Jay I was surprised he didn't throw harder. It bugged me I just don't like slower pitchers after experiencing the Dickey times. Ryu did put up a decent era his first year, I just wasn't a fan of him and $20M for him and being considered the Ace of this team now #1, and this year definitely didn't help me change my opinion on him to like him at all, hence why I just want him moved. Personally I like Manoah more, but do realize he needs to work on his control to be more dominate in this league, but after his first year in the MLB he had a 3.22 era and Ryu has a career 3.20 era.... Just saying.

 

[Cor]

Ok, so just to try to understand again... you thought Ryu was good without having seen him because you didn't watch the Dodgers, then once you saw him play with the Jays and have one of the best seasons of any pitchers in the league, you realized he sucks. And then you decided his dominance in LA was due to their elite defense... even though you never watched him pitch in LA and therefore have no idea whether or not thats true.

That's a hell of an argument.

this was a glorious post.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

Well I mean starting pitchers do pitch every 5 games so hopefully it’s a good start every game.

That was a funny comment, made me laugh nice one.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

I wouldn't trade Gurriel he had a break out year, yes his fielding isn't maybe the greatest but he has a strong arm, and now without Semien we need Gurriels bat more imo.

 

[shortfuze]

That was a funny comment, made me laugh nice one.

Lol. I know what you meant though.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

Lol. I know what you meant though.

Yeah I figured you did with that reply, it made me laugh I like a good laugh, credit where credits due.

 

[SDig14]

I wouldn't trade Gurriel he had a break out year, yes his fielding isn't maybe the greatest but he has a strong arm, and now without Semien we need Gurriels bat more imo.

The only way most of us want him traded is if he us part of a package for a way better bat than his, I.e. Jose Ramirez. If that happens, it's a lot easier to find a free agent outfielder to replace him. The free agent options for 3B is basically Kris Bryant and that's it, and seems like he may cost more than what they want to spend.

 

[MarkusKetterer]

That's why pitchers have off speed pitches

Irrelevant if they can’t locate. Greg Maddux was one of the best pitchers ever. He didn’t throw heat. Mark Buerhle didn’t throw heat and he was one of the best pitchers in his time. Tim Wakefield was damn near unhittable, no heat. There was also some guy the Jays had at one point who wasn’t a heater, despite having the ability to, who was serviceable. I think he got a MD during his playing days.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

The only way most of us want him traded is if he us part of a package for a way better bat than his, I.e. Jose Ramirez. If that happens, it's a lot easier to find a free agent outfielder to replace him. The free agent options for 3B is basically Kris Bryant and that's it, and seems like he may cost more than what they want to spend.

What about Biggio, he seems to be forgotten. Obviously he had issues last season and didn't play much I believe there is potential in him, he has a sweet swing but he's now like a utility guy or is he going to be a 3rd baseman or 2nd baseman again.. What about Espinal? Is he gone?

 

[barilko05]

Irrelevant if they can’t locate. Greg Maddux was one of the best pitchers ever. He didn’t throw heat. Mark Buerhle didn’t throw heat and he was one of the best pitchers in his time. Tim Wakefield was damn near unhittable, no heat. There was also some guy the Jays had at one point who wasn’t a heater, despite having the ability to, who was serviceable. I think he got a MD during his playing days.

Let's also not forget Marco Estrada. No real heat to speak of but changed speeds so well hitters could rarely get a bead on him.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

The only way most of us want him traded is if he us part of a package for a way better bat than his, I.e. Jose Ramirez. If that happens, it's a lot easier to find a free agent outfielder to replace him. The free agent options for 3B is basically Kris Bryant and that's it, and seems like he may cost more than what they want to spend.

It's not irrelevant maybe for location I'll give you that but if you can't throw good off speed and just rely on a fastball than you're not a starter and you're a bullpen guy. But what makes a good starting pitcher/dominant now a days imo more is having a good fastball and good off speed. Pitchers throw harder now then 50-60 years ago and it's definitely much harder for a batter to hit a 96-100mph fastball especially if you have good off speed. Batters have better eyes now and seeing speeds like Chapman more and with the use of technology pitching machines they are adjusting more, but guys that pitch slower are becoming easier for batters now.

 

[howlman]

Report: Blue Jays Pursuing Japanese OF Seiya Suzuki

Best hitter to come out of Japan since Ohtani - is that true about this guy?

Could be a huge get for the Jays if they somehow pull it off. Then proceed with a monster package involving Gurriel, Groshans, ++ for Ramirez.

Scary good team Shapiro and Atkins are building here for years to come

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

Let's also not forget Marco Estrada. No real heat to speak of but changed speeds so well hitters could rarely get a bead on him.

100% will give credit where credit is due, again was not a fan of his, but he did impress me with what he was able to do.

 

[Discoverer]

4,5 innings at most,then pull him.

Of the 9 starts in which he allowed 2 or fewer runs, he threw 5 innings twice and 6+ innings 7 times.

Like... this stuff is so easy to look up. Why do people insist on forming opinions based on feelings rather than facts?

 

[SDig14]

What about Biggio, he seems to be forgotten. Obviously he had issues last season and didn't play much I believe there is potential in him, he has a sweet swing but he's now like a utility guy or is he going to be a 3rd baseman or 2nd baseman again.. What about Espinal? Is he gone?

I'm still a fan of Biggio if they just leave him at 2B permanently. If he is over his neck injury, I think he rebounds next year. He just can't field 3B, so let him settle in and get comfortable playing 2B all year. Could platoon him with Espinal at 2B as well if they find a longer term solution as 3B.

 

[ChuckNorris4Cup]

I'm still a fan of Biggio if they just leave him at 2B permanently. If he is over his neck injury, I think he rebounds next year. He just can't field 3B, so let him settle in and get comfortable playing 2B all year. Could platoon him with Espinal at 2B as well if they find a longer term solution as 3B.

I did feel Biggio and Bichette would have some good time to build chemistry up the middle being so young, but Biggio did stuggle a bit at 2nd hence the Semien acquiring, and then Biggio being used as a utility guy. Hopefully he improves on his defensive game and can be used in that 2nd base role more.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I'd rather not lose Lourdes
Best hair in baseball
Seriously though he has talent and can tell he's a good club-house, well-liked guy

 

[Canada4Gold]

I wouldn't trade Gurriel he had a break out year, yes his fielding isn't maybe the greatest but he has a strong arm, and now without Semien we need Gurriels bat more imo.

Gurriel had a breakout year? This year? His 2019 and 2020 were way better. He was fine this year too. But he had an extended stretch early in the season where he couldn't hit anything which hurt his overall numbers.

 

[The Nemesis]

Best hitter to come out of Japan since Ohtani - is that true about this guy?

Could be a huge get for the Jays if they somehow pull it off. Then proceed with a monster package involving Gurriel, Groshans, ++ for Ramirez.

Scary good team Shapiro and Atkins are building here for years to come

"Best hitter to come out of Japan since Ohtani" is kind of a nothing qualifier because:

a) the only successfully posted position player since Ohtani was Yoshi Tsutsugo, who was posted for a relatively low fee and not considered a high end signing. There were also two other players who were posted and failed to get deals with MLB teams. Point being that the bar to clear to be the best Japanese position player posted since Ohtani is exceptionally low

and

b) The track record of Japanese position players in MLB is not great overall. Even if we take posted and non-posted players alike, who are the success stories beyond Ichiro and Ohtani? And I mean real success stories, not just "he was a pretty OK MLBer once he was here" types.

Because if you think about it, who is the best non-Ichiro, non-Ohtani Japanese position player in MLB history? If I'm just looking at career fWAR totals as a really quick and dirty way to narrow the list down, your winner of this contest is.... Nori Aoki! Followed by Tadahito Iguchi and Kaz Matsui. But they also were largely just the ones who stuck it out the longest and weren't complete tire fires from the get-go.

That doesn't inspire grand confidence in spending a premium on posted NPB talent just to be able to sign them to a fair market value after you've shelled out money initially

 

[Michael HOMERUNing]

Would it really be the end of the world if they rolled Espinal Bichette Biggio Vlad and allocated all the money to pitching?

 

[Epictetus]

Because if you think about it, who is the best non-Ichiro, non-Ohtani Japanese position player in MLB history?

Maybe Hideki Matsui?

But your point stands. I think they generally just seem to struggle with adapting to hitting the higher velocity.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Would it really be the end of the world if they rolled Espinal Bichette Biggio Vlad and allocated all the money to pitching?

It's the depth I'd be worried about. A bench of Kirk/Biggio/Espinal/LH bat to replace Grichuk? is fantastic.

The offense would likely be fine but there is a huge dropoff after the starters plus this group. If you could get Rondon and a couple high end BP arms I could live with it though.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Would it really be the end of the world if they rolled Espinal Bichette Biggio Vlad and allocated all the money to pitching?

I think you need at least 1 other player capable of being a starter at 3rd. Espinal is likely your 2nd option at SS so if either he or Bo got hurt you’re forced to start Smith at 3rd. It doesn’t have to be someone who replaces Espinal as the starter. Just anyone you’re ok with being a starter there in case of injury

 

[Canada4Gold]

It's the depth I'd be worried about. A bench of Kirk/Biggio/Espinal/LH bat to replace Grichuk? is fantastic.

The offense would likely be fine but there is a huge dropoff after the starters plus this group. If you could get Rondon and a couple high end BP arms I could live with it though.

both Espinal and Biggio won’t be on the bench. They’d need to add a starter at both 2nd and 3rd and at that point you’re getting diminishing returns for 2 marginal upgrades on either your cash or trade assets when you need to spend some of it on pitching too

 

[The Nemesis]

Maybe Hideki Matsui?

But your point stands. I think they generally just seem to struggle with adapting to hitting the higher velocity.

Crap, I forgot about Matsui. Ok, so he's #3 behind the other two. And then.... yeah.

And I don't think it's just the higher velo. I think it's also the change in play style. NPB ball is quite different from MLB ball. Pitchers threw fewer kinds of pitches but the ones they have are better (velo and movement), hitting is less about slap-hitting contact and speed play and more about driving the ball, defences shift more and defenders are probably on average better. NPB is, talent-wise, somewhere in between MLB and AAA, but it's also a different enough game that simply translating talent level doesn't necessarily work unless you are particularly prodigiously talented as a hittter (Ichiro) or have big time power (Ohtani, Matsui)