Blue Jays Discussion: Off-season Edition II - Winter Meeting Madness

[Jozay]

Damn thats a lot of blue on his baseball savant page.

 

[canucksfan]

Wondering if they wanted to change the dynamic by dealing Teo and Gurriel, the ringleaders of dugout antics

I think that's it along with improving defensively.

 

[theaub]

I like this trade in a vacuum because I don't think Gurriel has a ton of value being an expiring contract and I've never been as high on Moreno as most.

But, similar to the Teoscar trade, with where we are in the window I am a bit confused that we're trading major league assets instead of prospects. Gurriel may not have a ton of value in the grand scheme of things to most teams but he is still an important incremental piece for us if we're looking to win in 2023. Need to still add another OF now IMO.

 

[Woodman19]

I like this trade in a vacuum because I don't think Gurriel has a ton of value being an expiring contract and I've never been as high on Moreno as most.

But, similar to the Teoscar trade, with where we are in the window I am a bit confused that we're trading major league assets instead of prospects. Gurriel may not have a ton of value in the grand scheme of things to most teams but he is still an important incremental piece for us if we're looking to win in 2023. Need to still add another OF now IMO.

Im in the same boat, but the trading major league assets is likely more to do with fixing our previously dogshit outfield defense by removing the negatives and adding huge positives in their place. Our pitching is going to look fantastic next year.

 

[theaub]

Im in the same boat, but the trading major league assets is likely more to do with fixing our previously dogshit outfield defense by removing the negatives and adding huge positives in their place. Our pitching is going to look fantastic next year.

Yeah agreed they really needed to improve the defense but we're looking at an OF of Varsho, Kiermaier and uh...Springer (is he DH'ing?) and Merrifield (Biggio???)? Still need someone else IMO and preferably someone with a bat.

 

[canucksfan]

I would like the Jays to add another outfield piece even after this trade.

 

[Garlando]

A righty hitting OFer that can hits lefties might be of need for the bench after the Varsho signing…

Varsho hit just .221/.250/.303 against lefties last year, supported by a rough 2.3% walk rate against a 27.9% strikeout rate. All told it was worth a terrible .243 wOBA (around .320 is considered average) and a 52 wRC+ (100 wRC+ is average) against lefties.

 

[Eyedea]

Not the biggest fan of Varsho's bat but now the OF's defence is elite. Might be some positive shift data on him as he was an extreme pull hitter this past season. But, he's platoony so I'd imagine they'd look to grab a righty OF now in free agency.

AJ Pollock? Adam Duvall?

 

[canucksfan]

Awkward

 

[BackPassChampions]

I'll wait until mid to end season to really judge this.

End of the day, players with term aren't cheap. We also want to start winning now. Have to give up something to get something. Let's see what other moves the Jays make.

 

[phillipmike]

Unless Varsho on base skills from the minors shows up, this doesn’t change the lineup construction.

He is a career 101 wRC+ hitter. He isn’t batting ahead of Springer, Bichette, Vladdy, Kirk or Chapman and possibly Jansen. So you’ll have your 2 lefties at the bottom again in Varsho, Merrifield and then Kiermaier.

This only makes sense if you get a bounce back for DH like Belt. He had a bad year but great against righties and had an awesome 2021.

Shapiro and Atkins says they were going to replace Teo’s production and change the lineup construction. Unless Varsho hits like he did in the minors, he isn’t replacing Teo’s production and he isn’t hitting in the top 5 so the lineup construction isn’t much different where it matters.

Need a right handed hitting OF now too. The added value you have in Varsho is he can still catch quite a bit. So this doesn’t rule out a Jansen trade either.

Love the improvement on defense though.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I like this trade in a vacuum because I don't think Gurriel has a ton of value being an expiring contract and I've never been as high on Moreno as most.

But, similar to the Teoscar trade, with where we are in the window I am a bit confused that we're trading major league assets instead of prospects. Gurriel may not have a ton of value in the grand scheme of things to most teams but he is still an important incremental piece for us if we're looking to win in 2023. Need to still add another OF now IMO.

But now it can be a LFer, and probably not one who needs to be the absolute best defensive talent in the world either (since the Jays have Springer, Kiermaier, and now Varsho).

Doesn't even need to be a LH batter for that matter, although the best UFA options are mostly LH batters anyways.

The Jays already had a surplus at catcher and we can now replace/upgrade Gurriel Jr.

I would have preferred it to be Jansen, but at the same time, if the Jays are in "win-now" mode, Moreno is the biggest wild card and is probably the worst of the three right now... And probably gets the best return too.

 

[Woodman19]

Yeah agreed they really needed to improve the defense but we're looking at an OF of Varsho, Kiermaier and uh...Springer (is he DH'ing?) and Merrifield (Biggio???)? Still need someone else IMO and preferably someone with a bat.

I assume its going to be Springer and Merrifield splitting time. At least LF is the least physically demanding spot if he has to play the field.

 

[canucksfan]

Jay's defense is nuts though. The only weak spot is SS.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Don't hate this trade, but now we definitely need a bat that can actually hit.

 

[canucksfan]

 

[Kurtz]

For what it’s worth;

View attachment 625950

Carroll was at 77. Would have preferred that.

I'm not familiar with how they derive that value, but I see that they have Varsho listed at C - would his value not crash if he's listed as LF, as he will be here?

 

[as Pure as Evil]

Gurriel is also a free agent after this season. If i remeber correctly

 

[MAB1]

Yeah agreed they really needed to improve the defense but we're looking at an OF of Varsho, Kiermaier and uh...Springer (is he DH'ing?) and Merrifield (Biggio???)? Still need someone else IMO and preferably someone with a bat.

If their focus was on run prevention, keeping Gurriel with KK and Varsho was pointless because he's the worst defender out of those guys + Springer. Gurriel isn't a bench player either and in a contract year I doubt he'd accept a bench/platoon role. Varsho, Springer, KK is an elite OF. Merrifield is a decent 4th OF option because you have Biggio and Espinal to cover 2B.

 

[djdev]

Unless Varsho on base skills from the minors shows up, this doesn’t change the lineup construction.

He is a career 101 wRC+ hitter. He isn’t batting ahead of Springer, Bichette, Vladdy, Kirk or Chapman and possibly Jansen. So you’ll have your 2 lefties at the bottom again in Varsho, Merrifield and then Kiermaier.

This only makes sense if you get a bounce back for DH like Belt. He had a bad year but great against righties and had an awesome 2021.

Shapiro and Atkins says they were going to replace Teo’s production and change the lineup construction. Unless Varsho hits like he did in the minors, he isn’t replacing Teo’s production and he isn’t hitting in the top 5 so the lineup construction isn’t much different where it matters.

Need a right handed hitting OF now too. The added value you have in Varsho is he can still catch quite a bit. So this doesn’t rule out a Jansen trade either.

Love the improvement on defense though.

lol its crazy to me that people think so little of merrifield here. his career numbers up until last year where he had a bit of a down year were that of a nearly elite top of the order bat. dude is capable of hitting .300 with an on base of .340ish with 40 doubles and 40 stolen bases with a low strikeout %.

 

[theaub]

I'm not familiar with how they derive that value, but I see that they have Varsho listed at C - would his value not crash if he's listed as LF, as he will be here?

Nah - he's a medicore (at best) defensive catcher but an elite right fielder. I think they just use the defensive WAR values like fangraphs.

 

[Judas Tavares]

I'll say this. It's an overpay, but we got a player we should have been targeting all along. Same with Bassitt, not sure we should have been expecting to get any pitcher on the market better than Bassitt. Add KK to the mix. Yes, I'd like to add some more and we paid a lot, but now you replay Game 2 again with some better managerial decisions, you win the game 4-1 instead of lose 10-9. I'll take it (it wasn't just the Bo/Springer play, don't forget both bloops to left field as well, one of those get caught we still win the game).

 

[MAB1]

I'll say this. It's an overpay, but we got a player we should have been targeting all along. Same with Bassitt, not sure we should have been expecting to get any pitcher on the market better than Bassitt. Add KK to the mix. Yes, I'd like to add some more and we paid a lot, but now you replay Game 2 again with some better managerial decisions, you win the game 4-1 instead of lose 10-8. I'll take it (it wasn't just the Bo/Springer play, don't forget both bloops to left field as well, one of those get caught we still win the game).

It's not an overpay...

The Jays got 4 years of control on a top 10 OF in the game. Gurriel is 1 year away from FA, he barely holds any value.

 

[Eyedea]

lol its crazy to me that people think so little of merrifield here. his career numbers up until last year where he had a bit of a down year were that of a nearly elite top of the order bat. dude is capable of hitting .300 with an on base of .340ish with 40 doubles and 40 stolen bases with a low strikeout %.

Assuming he's the everyday 2B, but if he were to fill in for KK/Varsho in the OF vs lefties, another guy would still need to cover the other.

 

[SDig14]

Might be interesting to see who plays the outfield against LHP.