Oakland A's to play in Sacramento for a few years while Las Vegas stadium is built

[KingLB]

I hear ya. It is an interesting case study because it is interesting if the tourists can offset the smaller local fan base. Given these leagues are investing, I have to think perhaps?

One thing that is interesting about Vegas is it's definitely a transplant town, so I wonder- further to your point- hie much of a dedicated local fan base these teams can get.

Not only that, but it’s likely the A’s continue their pitiful spending in Vegas, so having a consistent winner they likely won’t. And traveling works for the NFL, cause it’s only 8 times a year, and it could be a decade before your team goes to Vegas again. Are Texas rangers fans going to keep traveling to Vegas to see their team play 9 times a year?

 

[BB79]

Horrible news. RIP Oakland A's. Oakland looks like such a show, losing the Raiders and now the A's. Pathetic city

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Not only that, but it’s likely the A’s continue their pitiful spending in Vegas, so having a consistent winner they likely won’t. And traveling works for the NFL, cause it’s only 8 times a year, and it could be a decade before your team goes to Vegas again. Are Texas rangers fans going to keep traveling to Vegas to see their team play 9 times a year?

40+ million travel to Las Vegas annually as it is. Not a big stretch for some people to align their trips with their favorite team being in town. And with those numbers you don't need the same fans to travel to every series.

It is hard to understand the never ending mass of people that com here 24/7/365. There's no such thing as too many entertainment options

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Not only that, but it’s likely the A’s continue their pitiful spending in Vegas, so having a consistent winner they likely won’t. And traveling works for the NFL, cause it’s only 8 times a year, and it could be a decade before your team goes to Vegas again. Are Texas rangers fans going to keep traveling to Vegas to see their team play 9 times a year?

Good point will Las Vegans tolerate so-called Moneyball when it's a city if extravagance? Not to mention there's probably a lot more entertainment options aside from sports.

Re: traveling, that was something I asked myself too. Even in hockey, your team may go once or twice a year (3 or 4 times if it's a Pacific Division team), so if the visiting team brings the fans with them, it's only one or two games to condense them into.

 

[LadyStanley]

Tourism?

I've been to Vegas twice before the Knights showed up. Them having three sports teams would definitely motivate me to go even more. And unlike other cities, it's already a tourist haven, just gives a little incentive for fans to plan a trip. I've noticed the Raiders games have about half of the crowd wearing their opponent's jersey. Whether that's enough, time will tell.

Why do folks come to Las Vegas? Conventions is one big driver....
"With more than 10.5 million square feet of convention and meeting space (most in the U.S.), Las Vegas hosts nearly 60 of the 200 largest conventions (most in the U.S.) and 20,000 meetings annually (most in the U.S.)."

Adding on a sports game as evening entertainment in conjunction is quite possible. (Or one of dozens of evening entertainment options, from 6 Cirque Du Soleil shows and many other options from magic to music options in just about every genre. About three dozen museum options too. Not to mention the types of "entertainment" that historically most folks think of as Vegas.)

150,857 hotel rooms as of 2022 (with a couple more resorts coming on line soon). (There are more hotel rooms on one intersection than all of San Francisco.)

Team sports:
NHL, NFL, future MLB only? NBA Summer League? What about WNBA and G League? USL? MiLB? IFL? XFL? NLL? (Heck, there's even a roller derby team) And multiple developers trying to lure the NBA to have expansion team in town.

What about NASCAR, F1, drag racing? Not to mention off road racing (e.g., Mint 300).

Golf? Including PGA tournament (Shriner's Children). "There are 39 golf courses in Las Vegas, Nevada and 3 are municipal courses. There are also another 19 golf courses within 20 miles of Las Vegas, including 9 public, 3 municipal and 7 private courses. "


Tournaments including tennis?

Equestrian events? NFR? Bull riding?


No reason to be bored in Vegas.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Why do folks come to Las Vegas? Conventions is one big driver....
"With more than 10.5 million square feet of convention and meeting space (most in the U.S.), Las Vegas hosts nearly 60 of the 200 largest conventions (most in the U.S.) and 20,000 meetings annually (most in the U.S.)."

Adding on a sports game as evening entertainment in conjunction is quite possible. (Or one of dozens of evening entertainment options, from 6 Cirque Du Soleil shows and many other options from magic to music options in just about every genre. About three dozen museum options too. Not to mention the types of "entertainment" that historically most folks think of as Vegas.)

150,857 hotel rooms as of 2022 (with a couple more resorts coming on line soon). (There are more hotel rooms on one intersection than all of San Francisco.)

Team sports:
NHL, NFL, future MLB only? NBA Summer League? What about WNBA and G League? USL? MiLB? IFL? XFL? NLL? (Heck, there's even a roller derby team) And multiple developers trying to lure the NBA to have expansion team in town.

What about NASCAR, F1, drag racing? Not to mention off road racing (e.g., Mint 300).

Golf? Including PGA tournament (Shriner's Children). "There are 39 golf courses in Las Vegas, Nevada and 3 are municipal courses. There are also another 19 golf courses within 20 miles of Las Vegas, including 9 public, 3 municipal and 7 private courses. "


Tournaments including tennis?

Equestrian events? NFR? Bull riding?


No reason to be bored in Vegas.

You forgot the Gun Garage. Loved that place!

So you suppose tourism can keep the Raiders, Knights, and Athletics packed?

Can they build up a local fan base?

 

[LadyStanley]

You forgot the Gun Garage. Loved that place!

Didn't mention Battlefield Vegas either. Nor the helicopter tours, Pink Jeep tours, state and national parks/recreation areas within driving distance (with and without petroglyphs).

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Didn't mention Battlefield Vegas either. Nor the helicopter tours, Pink Jeep tours, state and national parks/recreation areas within driving distance (with and without petroglyphs).

Battlefield Vegas? I am intrigued. Will have to look into that one.

Yes, the helicopter tour to Grand Canyon. Also awesome! And the horse ride on Red Canyon. Toss in a NHL game to cap the day...awesomeness

 

[LadyStanley]

Battlefield Vegas? I am intrigued. Will have to look into that one.

Drive a tank, crush a car. Fire big ammo.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Drive a tank, crush a car. Fire big ammo.

Shhhh.....you had me at drive a tank

 

[LadyStanley]

There's also a place to drive an excavator (dig a hole, etc.).

 

[LadyStanley]

Nevada Week | Major League Baseball in Las Vegas and Visitor Profile | Season 5 | Episode 42 | PBS

The Oakland A’s bought land in Las Vegas but are they moving here?

www.pbs.org

Vegas PBS local news program on potential A's move (recorded 4/27)


Link to mentioned visitor study (2022)

https://assets.simpleviewcms.com/simpleview/image/upload/v1/clients/lasvegas/2022_Las_Vegas_Visitor_Profile_Study_8a25c904-37b4-42d0-af4d-8d8f04af9ecf.pdf

 

[KevFu]

But I'm talking about building a native fanbase. It's sort of the problem with, for example, the Los Angeles Chargers. LA is not a Chargers town, never was.

The difference between the Chargers move and the A's move is that the people of Los Angeles had decades of the LA Rams and LA Raiders first; while San Diego was actually a division rival of the Raiders.

And while tons of people move to LA, there's probably not a sizeable amount of people who moved to LA for the Coastal California Palm Tree Life.... from San Diego, which HAS the same thing.

In Vegas, you have people who haven't had their own team and will welcome someone, anyone, with open arms. Like they did the Knights.

One thing that is interesting about Vegas is it's definitely a transplant town, so I wonder- further to your point- hie much of a dedicated local fan base these teams can get.

A ton of people who move to Vegas from elsewhere connect with the city on a level different than just "I got a job offer and switched cities." New Orleans is similar in that way... there's a "lifestyle" that kinda goes with Vegas/NOLA.

I've moved a dozen times or so, and I'm not switching teams. I FOLLOWED the Sharks and Coyotes because I could turn those games on after watching the Islanders. But the New Orleans Saints are definitely different. I'll root for them as my "second" team in football forever. It reminds me of my time in NOLA fondly. Everywhere I go, I'm a New Yorker; but Vegas and New Orleans are full of people who say "I WAS a _____, but this is home now" and identify as a Las Vegan or New Orleanian.

The Golden Knights did a great job with their Fan Knighting thing: Fans in other jerseys would remove their old team's gear, renounce their old team, kneel before the mascot, who'd touch their shoulders with his sword, and they'd be Knighted into the Vegas fandom and given a Knights sweater.

I think Vegas is the place that would have a much higher percentage of fans switch from other teams to the local team. Salt Lake would be pretty good for that, too.

 

[KevFu]

Good point will Las Vegans tolerate so-called Moneyball when it's a city if extravagance? Not to mention there's probably a lot more entertainment options aside from sports.

Re: traveling, that was something I asked myself too. Even in hockey, your team may go once or twice a year (3 or 4 times if it's a Pacific Division team), so if the visiting team brings the fans with them, it's only one or two games to condense them into.

The whole reason Oakland started Moneyball in the first place was because the revenue streams from their old stadium didn't match the rest of baseball.

The Coliseum was built in 1966. The Football team was there first. There were no updates or modernization done in the 1980s or 1990s. The hallmark of the era was the stadium was essentially repeated sections over and over, identical to one another except the section number.

The Camden Yards revolution made everyone treat their stadium more like a theme park: Different stuff in different locations, so people walked around and bought different food at different places. Some of the last teams to replace cookie-cutters -- like the Cardinals or Mets -- made drastic changes to modernize revenue streams along those lines. You had clubs installed for premium seating, St. Louis added Big Mac Land. There's now like beer gardens and brewhouses and BBQ and steakhouses; Stadiums have speakeasies now.

But Oakland remained cookie-cutter to this day.

A new stadium in Las Vegas is going to have that, just like T-Mobile Arena has.

There won't be a reason to be a $45 million Moneyball team in Las Vegas. They're not going to be the Mets, Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox or Angels in spending. But they'll be able to spend on guys to make a young contender a legit contender, or resign a superstar. They'd be like PHI, ATL, HOU, DET kind of spenders.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

The difference between the Chargers move and the A's move is that the people of Los Angeles had decades of the LA Rams and LA Raiders first; while San Diego was actually a division rival of the Raiders.

And while tons of people move to LA, there's probably not a sizeable amount of people who moved to LA for the Coastal California Palm Tree Life.... from San Diego, which HAS the same thing.

In Vegas, you have people who haven't had their own team and will welcome someone, anyone, with open arms. Like they did the Knights.




A ton of people who move to Vegas from elsewhere connect with the city on a level different than just "I got a job offer and switched cities." New Orleans is similar in that way... there's a "lifestyle" that kinda goes with Vegas/NOLA.

I've moved a dozen times or so, and I'm not switching teams. I FOLLOWED the Sharks and Coyotes because I could turn those games on after watching the Islanders. But the New Orleans Saints are definitely different. I'll root for them as my "second" team in football forever. It reminds me of my time in NOLA fondly. Everywhere I go, I'm a New Yorker; but Vegas and New Orleans are full of people who say "I WAS a _____, but this is home now" and identify as a Las Vegan or New Orleanian.

The Golden Knights did a great job with their Fan Knighting thing: Fans in other jerseys would remove their old team's gear, renounce their old team, kneel before the mascot, who'd touch their shoulders with his sword, and they'd be Knighted into the Vegas fandom and given a Knights sweater.

I think Vegas is the place that would have a much higher percentage of fans switch from other teams to the local team. Salt Lake would be pretty good for that, too.

Interesting points. It makes sense. See it a lot here in Ottawa where some switch over or they'll make the Senators a second favourite, or even a 1B. Funny enough, Vegas is a favourite of mine just from going there twice. The only team I cheer against then is the Senators (in hockey) and Steelers (in football)

 

[ichbinkanadier]

The whole reason Oakland started Moneyball in the first place was because the revenue streams from their old stadium didn't match the rest of baseball.

The Coliseum was built in 1966. The Football team was there first. There were no updates or modernization done in the 1980s or 1990s. The hallmark of the era was the stadium was essentially repeated sections over and over, identical to one another except the section number.

The Camden Yards revolution made everyone treat their stadium more like a theme park: Different stuff in different locations, so people walked around and bought different food at different places. Some of the last teams to replace cookie-cutters -- like the Cardinals or Mets -- made drastic changes to modernize revenue streams along those lines. You had clubs installed for premium seating, St. Louis added Big Mac Land. There's now like beer gardens and brewhouses and BBQ and steakhouses; Stadiums have speakeasies now.

But Oakland remained cookie-cutter to this day.

A new stadium in Las Vegas is going to have that, just like T-Mobile Arena has.

There won't be a reason to be a $45 million Moneyball team in Las Vegas. They're not going to be the Mets, Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox or Angels in spending. But they'll be able to spend on guys to make a young contender a legit contender, or resign a superstar. They'd be like PHI, ATL, HOU, DET kind of spenders.

I misused the term; I was referring more so to the cheapness of the owner. If he's not willing to spend according to their revenues, I have to wonder if a place like Vegas will have much use for the team

 

[Roadrage]

My hope is the A's owner spends (probably triple the current salary) to make a splash or the honeymoon phase will be real short.

 

[KevFu]

Interesting points. It makes sense. See it a lot here in Ottawa where some switch over or they'll make the Senators a second favourite, or even a 1B. Funny enough, Vegas is a favourite of mine just from going there twice. The only team I cheer against then is the Senators (in hockey) and Steelers (in football)

I kinda pull for the Knights out west a little bit because it's "good for hockey" if that team creates a loyal fan base from early success; and because I went to a game their inaugural season and was impressed by their operation and the sheer volume of Vegas jerseys I saw.

 

[KevFu]

I misused the term; I was referring more so to the cheapness of the owner. If he's not willing to spend according to their revenues, I have to wonder if a place like Vegas will have much use for the team

Right. I don't think that it would be a problem early on, as plenty of people are going to see major leagues play baseball in Las Vegas, even if they're only on the other team.

And they DON'T need to go out and get a guy just to show they mean business -- which usually ends in disaster anyway. When you're signing someone as a PR-move, that guy usually turns into your anchor contract later (like Eric Hosmer in SD or Chris Davis in BAL).

They just need to KEEP the next star they develop (Langeliers?) instead of trading him to Atlanta, and sign a couple guys that make sense to sign. They need to actually BUILD SOMETHING instead of selling off their possible foundation pieces.


Articulating this is hard... it really makes no sense to spend money just for the sake of spending money. Like, Miami had a very mediocre to bad team, and they'd go out and sign guys like Jesus Aguilar, Jorge Soler, and Avasail Garcia. And it's just wasting $35 million for no reason. Those guys aren't difference makers.

Fans are a lot smarter than people give them credit for, and most fans LOVE being in that time period when a team goes from "Bad" to "Hey, these young kids can really play!" Like the Orioles last year, or this year's Arizona Diamondbacks. THOSE teams need to go out and get one free agent who helps (a) fill a hole and (b) be a veteran presence. ARZ added Evan Longoria, BAL added Adam Frazier.


So if the A's are actually building towards something with everything they got dealing away everyone they had 2-3 years ago, hopefully they time it right and open a new stadium with a team of "hey, these kids are alright" and supplement them with some FA spending.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Right. I don't think that it would be a problem early on, as plenty of people are going to see major leagues play baseball in Las Vegas, even if they're only on the other team.

And they DON'T need to go out and get a guy just to show they mean business -- which usually ends in disaster anyway. When you're signing someone as a PR-move, that guy usually turns into your anchor contract later (like Eric Hosmer in SD or Chris Davis in BAL).

They just need to KEEP the next star they develop (Langeliers?) instead of trading him to Atlanta, and sign a couple guys that make sense to sign. They need to actually BUILD SOMETHING instead of selling off their possible foundation pieces.


Articulating this is hard... it really makes no sense to spend money just for the sake of spending money. Like, Miami had a very mediocre to bad team, and they'd go out and sign guys like Jesus Aguilar, Jorge Soler, and Avasail Garcia. And it's just wasting $35 million for no reason. Those guys aren't difference makers.

Fans are a lot smarter than people give them credit for, and most fans LOVE being in that time period when a team goes from "Bad" to "Hey, these young kids can really play!" Like the Orioles last year, or this year's Arizona Diamondbacks. THOSE teams need to go out and get one free agent who helps (a) fill a hole and (b) be a veteran presence. ARZ added Evan Longoria, BAL added Adam Frazier.


So if the A's are actually building towards something with everything they got dealing away everyone they had 2-3 years ago, hopefully they time it right and open a new stadium with a team of "hey, these kids are alright" and supplement them with some FA spending.

I know what you mean; smart baseball as Keith Law would say. And I am enjoying that with the Blue Jays right now- although this recent run is on the heels of the Donaldson/Bautista run.

That's exactly what I was trying to get at with the reference to moneyball as Oakland has done it: retaining the core players to remain competitive rather than having rebuild constantly and hope the next batch of prospects are true major leaguers.

 

[PCSPounder]

Walk me through this. What am I missing?

Assembly leader: A’s stadium deal running out of time in Nevada Legislature - The Nevada Independent

Oakland A's find $1.5 billion stadium location in Las Vegas, seek approval for a $500 million tax package from state lawmakers for construction support.

thenevadaindependent.com

This isn’t even the first time the A’s have pulled this kind of maneuver… Peralta site. For some reason, I keep hearing a whisper or two that the state isn’t on board enough to provide financing. Am I counting votes wrong?

 

[Headshot77]

This Vegas deal is far from finalized

It's very suspect that they basically are starting over with the Vegas site. They don't have so much as a render ready. They don't have the 500 million in financing secured. The Nevada legislature is closing for the year soon and there's little appetite to drop another 500 million on a stadium when they already built Allegiant and T-Mobile within the last 6 years.

 

[LadyStanley]

Excellent interview with LVSportsBiz guy on sports in Las Vegas, the Athletics, proposed ballpark and more.

Summary: local guy hears that locals would be more apt to support expansion team (at undetermined future) than bottom of the barrel team. Thinks that MLB would approve relocation. But Clark County wary of being on the hook for $500m without any study that tax district would generate enough revenue to service bonds. (Especially after they had to borrow contingency funds during the pandemic for Allegiant.)

Did not mention proposed pedestrian bridge from Park Ave to ball park.

 

[MMC]

 

[Headshot77]

Their ownership group is a bunch of scumbags