Proposal: NYR-STL(Shatty)

[LiveLongandProspal]

You're gonna take Jesper Fast, Marc Staal and Dylan McIlrath for Shattenkirk and like it! Haha, nah, I see why the Blues are reluctant to trade him.

 

[bernmeister]

Until we know he's not a rental, which would require an extension agreed upon before the trade is made with an agreement that an extension will be signed right after the trade, he has to be treated as a rental.

Also, a lot of sources have said that Shattenkirk wants to play for the Rangers. If thats true, why would we give up a lot for one year of Shattenkirk, especially considering we probably aren't contenders this season even with Shattenkirk?

Thats why it has to be balanced that Shattenkirk is right now a rental and there's a good chance we will have the chance to sign him as a UFA.

As Ranger fans have said, that balance is Rick Nash (50%) retained + Kevin Klein. Thats some pretty good value. We'd probably be asking for a 1st+top prospect for Nash at 50% retained and a late first or early second for Klein. Those are two good hockey players. If thats not enough, we don't need to make a trade. Don't ask for McDonagh, Stepan, Kreider, Miller, Hayes, Skjei, Buchnevich. We don't want to trade those players for Shattenkirk.

He has to be treated as a rental, most definitely, but ALSO NY CANNOT EXECUTE THE EXTENSION W. HIM UNTIL THE DAY AFTER THE EXPANSION DRAFT. Otherwise, we have to protect him, and that is luxury we cannot afford.

We (Blues + Blueshirts) are not in agreement but that aside, structure of deal MUST only be agreed upon compensation including conditional compensation if Shatty does/does not extend w/NYR AFTER the expansion draft.

 

[BA Carroll]

He has to be treated as a rental, most definitely, but ALSO NY CANNOT EXECUTE THE EXTENSION W. HIM UNTIL THE DAY AFTER THE EXPANSION DRAFT. Otherwise, we have to protect him, and that is luxury we cannot afford.

We (Blues + Blueshirts) are not in agreement but that aside, structure of deal MUST only be agreed upon compensation including conditional compensation if Shatty does/does not extend w/NYR AFTER the expansion draft.

I've heard this oft repeated--but is it really true? I'm sure you know your team better than I do, but I don't take this narrative--that the NYR can't "afford" to protect Shattenkirk--as Gospel. Don't you already have a couple defensemen who are ineligible for the expansion draft anyway?

 

[bleedblue1223]

I've heard this oft repeated--but is it really true? I'm sure you know your team better than I do, but I don't take this narrative--that the NYR can't "afford" to protect Shattenkirk--as Gospel. Don't you already have a couple defensemen who are ineligible for the expansion draft anyway?

McD, Girardi, and Staal. Girardi and Staal have NMC.

 

[BA Carroll]

McD, Girardi, and Staal. Girardi and Staal have NMC.

By "ineligible", I meant "do not need to be protected", not "must be protected because of their contract status". Sorry for not being more precise.

 

[bleedblue1223]

By "ineligible", I meant "do not need to be protected", not "must be protected because of their contract status". Sorry for not being more precise.

Yes, but for them to protect him, they need to use the 8 skater method, meaning they lose a more valuable forward.

 

[Majorityof1]

By "ineligible", I meant "do not need to be protected", not "must be protected because of their contract status". Sorry for not being more precise.

It does not matter how many inelligble players they have. You can protect 3 D and 7 forwards or you can protect 8 skaters. It is absolutely stupid to go the 8 skater route if you can help it, because you are losing out on 2 protections. They have to protect Staal and Girardi. That leaves one D spot. So let's say they protect Shatty after a hypothetical trade. That leaves McDonagh exposed. Or they can protect McDonagh, and only get 4 forwards protected. They have to protect Stepan. Then they have Zibenjad, Kreider, Miller, Nash, Zucarello, Hayes, etc of which they could only protect 3. So they could protect McD and Shatty but it would expose some pretty decent forwards

It makes much better sense to protect Staal, Girardi, McDonagh and all 7 forwards I listed, then sign Shattenkirk after the expansion draft.

 

[smoneil]

It is supply and demand.
I don't think we give CK for a Vatanen when we can do a Zuc instead.

I would otherwise say Kreider + for MacKinnon, except the point is to try and unite the two on a dominant line. Swapping one for the other defeats that. Would not say no, but again, try to maximize pieces so you can dominate.

Bern, this right here is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. You are putting Kreider and MacKinnon on a similar level. If, in the unlikely event that Colorado ever chooses to trade MacKinnon, it wouldn't be for Kreider +. Kreider would BE the plus, not the centerpiece.

MacKinnon is five years younger, plays the more valuable position and two of his three seasons saw him put up better numbers than Kreider's career highs (and if MacK hadn't missed ~20 games, all three of his seasons would have been higher than Kreider's career high).

Knowing all of that, you STILL seem like you would balk at the swap. You are not objective at all where Kreider is concerned. it goes back to what I said before--you make up "facts" that justify why your favorite players can never be traded and players you dislike NEED to be traded.

Case in point, Derek Stepan--the player you think has "plateaued"--is only 10 months older than Kreider. Here are some hard cold facts: He has played six seasons, to Kreider's four. Stepan has four seasons with higher numbers than Kreider's career high--while also being far better on the defensive side of the game. The two seasons where Stepan was below Kreider's career year were his rookie year, where a 20 year old Stepan was exactly one point off of Kreider's high mark, and the lockout year, where Stepan put up 44 points in 48 games. In other words, basically every single one of Stepan's seasons has seen him be at worst equal to, and more often than not BETTER than Kreider's career highs.

Stepan IS the significantly better player, and I don't really see that changing. You need to stop acting like Kreider is on par with MacKinnon and that Stepan is hot garbage. It's not based on anything factual, and you are literally the only person who believes it.

 

[MissouriMook]

It does not matter how many inelligble players they have. You can protect 3 D and 7 forwards or you can protect 8 skaters. It is absolutely stupid to go the 8 skater route if you can help it, because you are losing out on 2 protections. They have to protect Staal and Girardi. That leaves one D spot. So let's say they protect Shatty after a hypothetical trade. That leaves McDonagh exposed. Or they can protect McDonagh, and only get 4 forwards protected. They have to protect Stepan. Then they have Zibenjad, Kreider, Miller, Nash, Zucarello, Hayes, etc of which they could only protect 3. So they could protect McD and Shatty but it would expose some pretty decent forwards

It makes much better sense to protect Staal, Girardi, McDonagh and all 7 forwards I listed, then sign Shattenkirk after the expansion draft.

I think we will know more in a couple of days when the Rangers' secondary buyout window closes. I still feel like they are going to buyout one of Staal or Girardi if they can't move them. I would defer to Rangers' fans on which player the team would most benefit from buying out, but to me it would seem to be Staal because of the presence of McDonagh on that side and because he has one more year on his "bad deal" though you could certainly make a case for Girardi given that he is nearly three years older than Staal.

 

[bluetuned]

Actually, we have a pretty good idea that Igor Shestyorkin will take his place, but I get your point, we probably won't be contending the next few seasons.

It might not just be about playing close to home. He might want to live in or near the town he grew up in as a kid and play for the team he grew up rooting for. He might care more about that than winning. Maybe he wants to raise his family where he grew up? It's possible you could play for NJ or NYI and live in Westchester, but its really more of a place you'd live if you are playing for the Rangers. The Rangers practice facility is in Westchester, and its not all that far from MSG. I think its pretty split between Rangers who live in Manhattan and those who live in Westchester. I'm not sure about whether any Islanders live in Westchester. I'd assume most live in Long Island because of where their old Arena was located, and possibly some in Manhattan, unlikely any live in Westchester because that's a long daily commute to the Nassau Colosseum where the Islanders played until last season. Maybe some Islander players have moved though, I don't know. I'd assume all Devils live in NJ. You don't want to have to cross the GW every day, although some people do that live in NYC or surrounding areas.

In regards to Shattenkirk's loyalties based on where he grew up, he certainly was in Rangers territory in New Rochelle, but he also played for the Devils youth organization for a long time as a kid, which was in West Orange at the time. His old jersey hangs in the Prudential Center.

 

[go4hockey]

Klingberg not only produces more offensively, he has a strong positive impact on possession, unlike Pietrangelo.

And Pietrangelo is far better defensively and can be counted on playing against other teams top lines night in and night out something Klingberg cannot do and smartly is not used that way. More to hockey than points and a possession stat.

 

[Doriva]

Bern, this right here is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. You are putting Kreider and MacKinnon on a similar level. If, in the unlikely event that Colorado ever chooses to trade MacKinnon, it wouldn't be for Kreider +. Kreider would BE the plus, not the centerpiece.

MacKinnon is five years younger, plays the more valuable position and two of his three seasons saw him put up better numbers than Kreider's career highs (and if MacK hadn't missed ~20 games, all three of his seasons would have been higher than Kreider's career high).

Knowing all of that, you STILL seem like you would balk at the swap. You are not objective at all where Kreider is concerned. it goes back to what I said before--you make up "facts" that justify why your favorite players can never be traded and players you dislike NEED to be traded.

Case in point, Derek Stepan--the player you think has "plateaued"--is only 10 months older than Kreider. Here are some hard cold facts: He has played six seasons, to Kreider's four. Stepan has four seasons with higher numbers than Kreider's career high--while also being far better on the defensive side of the game. The two seasons where Stepan was below Kreider's career year were his rookie year, where a 20 year old Stepan was exactly one point off of Kreider's high mark, and the lockout year, where Stepan put up 44 points in 48 games. In other words, basically every single one of Stepan's seasons has seen him be at worst equal to, and more often than not BETTER than Kreider's career highs.

Stepan IS the significantly better player, and I don't really see that changing. You need to stop acting like Kreider is on par with MacKinnon and that Stepan is hot garbage. It's not based on anything factual, and you are literally the only person who believes it.

But but but Kreider is big.

 

[Group Chat Legend*]

Bern, this right here is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. You are putting Kreider and MacKinnon on a similar level. If, in the unlikely event that Colorado ever chooses to trade MacKinnon, it wouldn't be for Kreider +. Kreider would BE the plus, not the centerpiece.

MacKinnon is five years younger, plays the more valuable position and two of his three seasons saw him put up better numbers than Kreider's career highs (and if MacK hadn't missed ~20 games, all three of his seasons would have been higher than Kreider's career high).

Knowing all of that, you STILL seem like you would balk at the swap. You are not objective at all where Kreider is concerned. it goes back to what I said before--you make up "facts" that justify why your favorite players can never be traded and players you dislike NEED to be traded.

Case in point, Derek Stepan--the player you think has "plateaued"--is only 10 months older than Kreider. Here are some hard cold facts: He has played six seasons, to Kreider's four. Stepan has four seasons with higher numbers than Kreider's career high--while also being far better on the defensive side of the game. The two seasons where Stepan was below Kreider's career year were his rookie year, where a 20 year old Stepan was exactly one point off of Kreider's high mark, and the lockout year, where Stepan put up 44 points in 48 games. In other words, basically every single one of Stepan's seasons has seen him be at worst equal to, and more often than not BETTER than Kreider's career highs.

Stepan IS the significantly better player, and I don't really see that changing. You need to stop acting like Kreider is on par with MacKinnon and that Stepan is hot garbage. It's not based on anything factual, and you are literally the only person who believes it.

He almost never sounds logical, only biased. Great post

 

[Machinehead]

Rangers fans be like "we'll just sign him then..."

 

[Machinehead]

In regards to Shattenkirk's loyalties based on where he grew up, he certainly was in Rangers territory in New Rochelle, but he also played for the Devils youth organization for a long time as a kid, which was in West Orange at the time. His old jersey hangs in the Prudential Center.

But he's a Rangers fan. This is common knowledge.

 

[dashripdot]

I think we will know more in a couple of days when the Rangers' secondary buyout window closes. I still feel like they are going to buyout one of Staal or Girardi if they can't move them. I would defer to Rangers' fans on which player the team would most benefit from buying out, but to me it would seem to be Staal because of the presence of McDonagh on that side and because he has one more year on his "bad deal" though you could certainly make a case for Girardi given that he is nearly three years older than Staal.

They're not going to buy out either one this season, but they might convince one or both to waive their NMC for purposes of the expansion draft.

 

[bleedblue1223]

They're not going to buy out either one this season, but they might convince one or both to waive their NMC for purposes of the expansion draft.

I doubt players want to risk being in an expansion situation.

 

[bfaust30]

Rick Nash v. Kevin Klein as of now

Who brings more value? Kevin Klein who is a top 4 guy with a great contract. Or Nash who still is considered a top 6, who had a rough season, but also has a brutal contract. If one of them is going to St. Louis, who you you think it will be? Klein's addition is probably a pick + mid prospect, while Nash is salary retained plus late pick or mid prospect.

 

[KreiderHouseRules*]

Nash.

He'll have a bounce-back year and score 30 easily.

Close thread.

 

[FLYLine27*]

Nash

 

[gorangers0525]

Not even going to touch this one

 

[belair]

Is OP referring to Shattenkirk?

Why not just offer both?

Nash(retained)/Klein for Shattenkirk/Berglund/Paajarvi

 

[bleedblue1223]

Who brings more value? Kevin Klein who is a top 4 guy with a great contract. Or Nash who still is considered a top 6, who had a rough season, but also has a brutal contract. If one of them is going to St. Louis, who you you think it will be? Klein's addition is probably a pick + mid prospect, while Nash is salary retained plus late pick or mid prospect.

St. Louis really wouldn't have interest in either piece.

 

[PensRedwings2887]

In terms of on ice impact; it's Tarasenko by a country mile(40 goal scorers tend to do that).

In terms of leadership/off-ice impact; it was Backes but there was a group behind him that really added to our identity. That group being Steen, Stastny, Berglund and Schwartz. Steen would probably be seen as the "leader" of that group right now but all 4 really have a stabilizing effect when they are in the lineup.

Thats what I had thought tbch, thanks for keeping the response classy

 

[SirGoose]

would the blues be interested in something around

girardi with 10% retained (more?) & jt miller
for
shattenkirk+?

is there even a plus from st.louis? LOVE millers game and he'd be great on the blues. i do feel the rags would likely want a roster player. perron, steen, lehtera. give or take from either side or do it clean, there's a deal to finagle here.