Post-Game Talk: NYR @ CGY: Bye Bye Stu

[Steve Kournianos]

Stajan, Ramos lead Flames over Rangers 4-1

http://scores.espn.go.com/nhl/recap?gameId=400485559

A little latino flavor in Calgary.

 

[Ola]

Lets call a spade a spade here, we got a big problem on the ice when we play that is not attributeable to pre-season or whatever.

Under Torts, down the road it became widely acknowledge that our passing game was just horrible. Not only did we play an extreme no-misstake style when heading up ice, when we tried to do anything else we were just horrible at it. We just didn't have a passing game. You can crystalize a thumb rule under Torts: a misstake that directly cost you a scoring chance was to put it midly a no-go. If you just fired the puck up ice so that you lost possession of it, but the other team had to fetch it in their end, it was a text book play. We wanted to go after the other team on the forcheck, that was the only thing we knew to do.

Under AV, or just about any other coach in this league 2013, a lost puck is not good at all. We want to win the puck, take it up ice and to the net. Spend time in the attacking zone with it. Just like Boston want to do, like Chicago want to do, like NYI want to do or NJD or Montreal or Philly or basically any other team in this league. That is the core game plan. Simple enough. The team we play against want to do it, and we want to do it. The team that is best at it will win their fair share of games.

The bottom line, after we have won a puck on the ice we just give it away waaaaayyyy too easily. Bad decisions. Hell mary passes as a norm. Misreads. Miscommunications. Bouncing pucks. Bad ice. Whatever. You name it.

Kreider-BR-Nash is on the ice for like 20-25 shifts. If a scoring line like that looses a puck, the other team makes it cost them 20-30 seconds. Guaranteed. You can easily count 20 - 25 very below avg passes -- for like an ECHL team -- last night when they where on the ice. AV knows the work he got infront of him, and there is no reason for him to like in the media call certain stuff out, but when like John Moore under little pressure yesterday has the puck under controll behind his own net and tries to slapper the puck around the boards up to a Nash high up ice in the 1st period I am willing to bet my right arm that it stings greatly in him considering that our top line had like its fourth concequtive shift where it was unable to get anything going.

No plays are easy to excute at the NHL level. But when you can't clutch and grab or hook, good players, the better players in this league, should be able to move the puck up ice and get into the attacking zone with it under controll and get something going at least. The Islanders with what, a 40m budget, has 4 lines that from time to time is able to execute those plays over a 60 minute game. Staal-MDZ-Kreider-BR-Nash can play 30 minutes of a game and fail 10 of 10 attempts right now.

Thats how far behind we are starting after 3.5 years with Torts.

I like how many of our players are looking in several areas, but not all. I don't think its anything wrong with our roster per se. We will have a great goalie, great depth on the blueline but not much offensive punch, I like the chances of our 2nd line being able to get something done and when Stepan joins the rank we will have three really competent lines. But we got a looooooonnnng way to go before we fire on all cylindars. And that will show during the year. From loosing 100 pucks a night due to hell mary passes, bad bouncing passes, not taking the perfect decision under pressure, we need to like go down to ten to compete with say a Chicago. John Moore gave away 10 pucks by himself last night, no, not one cost us like a breakaway and hence won't ring of any warning signs in a crowd used to watching Torts hockey, but they are still plays that each cost us an entire shift of trying to accomplish anything really. Kreider was very clueless. BR and Nash isn't doing it by themselves.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

People as usual are overreacting from a preseason loss after the Rangers spent a whole week golfing, eating, drinking, smoking cigars and doing yoga.

The Flames are terrible. Easily one of the worst teams in the NHL. They have no depth and Kari Ramo as their goalie. They decided to show up for a preseason game. Congrats.

Just enjoy the fact that hockey is back. The players will come around.

 

[Miller Time NYR]

Kreider needs to get his head out of his ass and play like he's fighting for a spot alla kristo, fast, lindberg

 

[Steve Kournianos]

The Rangers organization has never hyped up Kreider. In fact, when has this FO ever hyped up anybody? That's an old Neil Smith tactic. Smith used to talk about all these Russians (Sergei Olympiev LOL) like they were all a bunch of Federovs and Kasatonovs.

Justifying the selection of a player isn't hyping somebody up. The Rangers have treated Kreider the way he should be treated.

Sather saying he's not going to trade Kreider and that he's "gonna be a good player" doesnt sount like hype to me.

 

[Levitate]

Lets call a spade a spade here, we got a big problem on the ice when we play that is not attributeable to pre-season or whatever.

Under Torts, down the road it became widely acknowledge that our passing game was just horrible. Not only did we play an extreme no-misstake style when heading up ice, when we tried to do anything else we were just horrible at it. We just didn't have a passing game. You can crystalize a thumb rule under Torts: a misstake that directly cost you a scoring chance was to put it midly a no-go. If you just fired the puck up ice so that you lost possession of it, but the other team had to fetch it in their end, it was a text book play. We wanted to go after the other team on the forcheck, that was the only thing we knew to do.

Under AV, or just about any other coach in this league 2013, a lost puck is not good at all. We want to win the puck, take it up ice and to the net. Spend time in the attacking zone with it. Just like Boston want to do, like Chicago want to do, like NYI want to do or NJD or Montreal or Philly or basically any other team in this league. That is the core game plan. Simple enough. The team we play against want to do it, and we want to do it. The team that is best at it will win their fair share of games.

The bottom line, after we have won a puck on the ice we just give it away waaaaayyyy too easily. Bad decisions. Hell mary passes as a norm. Misreads. Miscommunications. Bouncing pucks. Bad ice. Whatever. You name it.

Kreider-BR-Nash is on the ice for like 20-25 shifts. If a scoring line like that looses a puck, the other team makes it cost them 20-30 seconds. Guaranteed. You can easily count 20 - 25 very below avg passes -- for like an ECHL team -- last night when they where on the ice. AV knows the work he got infront of him, and there is no reason for him to like in the media call certain stuff out, but when like John Moore under little pressure yesterday has the puck under controll behind his own net and tries to slapper the puck around the boards up to a Nash high up ice in the 1st period I am willing to bet my right arm that it stings greatly in him considering that our top line had like its fourth concequtive shift where it was unable to get anything going.

No plays are easy to excute at the NHL level. But when you can't clutch and grab or hook, good players, the better players in this league, should be able to move the puck up ice and get into the attacking zone with it under controll and get something going at least. The Islanders with what, a 40m budget, has 4 lines that from time to time is able to execute those plays over a 60 minute game. Staal-MDZ-Kreider-BR-Nash can play 30 minutes of a game and fail 10 of 10 attempts right now.

Thats how far behind we are starting after 3.5 years with Torts.

I like how many of our players are looking in several areas, but not all. I don't think its anything wrong with our roster per se. We will have a great goalie, great depth on the blueline but not much offensive punch, I like the chances of our 2nd line being able to get something done and when Stepan joins the rank we will have three really competent lines. But we got a looooooonnnng way to go before we fire on all cylindars. And that will show during the year. From loosing 100 pucks a night due to hell mary passes, bad bouncing passes, not taking the perfect decision under pressure, we need to like go down to ten to compete with say a Chicago. John Moore gave away 10 pucks by himself last night, no, not one cost us like a breakaway and hence won't ring of any warning signs in a crowd used to watching Torts hockey, but they are still plays that each cost us an entire shift of trying to accomplish anything really. Kreider was very clueless. BR and Nash isn't doing it by themselves.

Agree with a lot of this. Too many times, especially in the defensive and neutral zone, guys get the puck and their default play is just to fire it up the boards and out. They want to avoid turning it over, fine, but too many times they don't even look for teammates or another play or even if an opposing player is close to them, it's just "get rid of the puck".

It's going to take awhile for the players to break that habit IMO. Guys like Zucarello and Brassard who have been in NY for a shorter time probably are going to look a lot better (and surprise they have been).

It's gonna be a process.

Plays through the neutral zone also have to improve. A slow, plodding attack through the neutral zone is just not gonna cut it. A line with Kreider on it should have him streaking out of the zone looking for a headman pass, or at least stretch out the D and make them be aware of that play and give other players more space. Saw a bunch of times when that line would start breaking the puck out and Kreider would be coasting through the neutral zone looking backward at his linemates waiting for them to get their heads up and do more than slowly skate the puck out

Speaking of that line, I did see them do some good things when they really got possession in the offensive zone and kept it, but if it's gonna stay together they have to do a much better job through the neutral zone and not just throw the puck away as soon as they get into the zone. A wrist shot on net from above the circles without a teammate in front or about to reach the front of the net is as good as a turnover


Re: Moore, I wouldn't be surprised if the coaches have given him the green light to try to do whatever he can so they can see what he's capable of. I expect them to pull him back in when the season starts so he's doing less roving

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Moore drops bombs, he's a pretty emotional kid and when he fights he lets them all out.

I think everyone realizes he has work to do defensively, so we don't feel the need to dissect that aspect of his game, but offensively he has looked very good joining the rush and trying to make things happen.

 

[Ola]

People as usual are overreacting from a preseason loss after the Rangers spent a whole week golfing, eating, drinking, smoking cigars and doing yoga.

Nah, I wish this was the case but from my point of view these games are just a reminder of what I to be perfectly honest expects from us, not early this year, but for quite some time.

When Torts coached this team, I often made it known that I felt that we were heading in a direction which would hurt us for years to come when he left because we would have a lot of catching up to do.

I am not very impressed with Fast overall, but I can only notice that Fast is making passes with the puck that are much smarter and more poised than we see from many of the veterans of this team. To be perfectly honest, that says more about the others than of Fast. Like when you go -- wow he didn't give the puck away there -- it says something about your expectations...

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Maybe he is looking better and better, but I don't think he brings what we really need and I can't say I am thrilled about his development.

Interesting, in what way? Full disclosure I fell asleep before the third. But I saw Moore chosing his spots to jump up pretty well, moving well/creatively in the ozone to open up space, and getting good hard shots on net. Good shot selection and actually got it to the net.

Edit - Just read your other posts RE transition, fair enough. I liked his game in the o zone a good deal.

 

[RangerBoy]

The Kreider stuff reminds me of Goldilocks. If linemates were porridge, maybe he'll find the ones that are just right soon.

Vigneault, like Tortorella, is getting hit with the reality that Kreider is not the cant-miss blue chipper that management thinks he is.

Are you still doing Tortorella's bidding? Its getting kind of old. Your boy is gone. Deal with it.

 

[Levitate]

Also, for the criticism of Kreider, I bet if you put him on a higher tempo line with guys who are moving their feet and recovering pucks and playing chippy, that he actually plays better as well.

Every time I watch him with Richards and Nash it's like he's waiting for them to get the puck and make a play and they're too busy bumbling around in the corner and losing battles along the boards.

I've long ago accepted the fact that Kreider isn't going to jump on a line and play amazing and make it better all by himself, he's dependent on his linemates a lot and it feels like he's only gotten the right combo a couple of times. Maybe I'm making excuses, I dunno.

 

[pld459666]

I have defended Kreider time and again. I have stated over and over that he need to be played with talented players to really bring out the best in him.

It's just 2 pre-season games, but the kid is lost. As big as he is, he need to lear how to play with a nasty streak and dedicate himself to going to the dirty areas of the ice.

He also needs to sit witht eh video guys and start doing everything opposite of what he is doing now.

Again, it's just two games and he's still young, but as the Great Yogi Berra once said. "It's getting late early"

 

[Levitate]

I am not very impressed with Fast overall, but I can only notice that Fast is making passes with the puck that are much smarter and more poised than we see from many of the veterans of this team. To be perfectly honest, that says more about the others than of Fast. Like when you go -- wow he didn't give the puck away there -- it says something about your expectations...

Also agree on this, though I'm not going to comment on how good or bad Fast is. I haven't watched him quite closely enough...best I can say is that I see him make some good plays and some weak plays, but he's a rookie so I'm not going to get on him.

But yeah...that's the thing. You see guys like Brassard and Zucc and some of the newer guys like Lindberg and Fast and Kristo make some skilled plays and passes or back the other team off or things like that and then you see Richards or Nash or someone just do something like pull up and make a really uncreative play like toss a wrist shot on net from the boards and instead shoot it directly into the skates of the defense 3 feet in front of them, and you're like "holy **** how can these guys make smart plays and these other guys look like they're just plain idiots"

Low percentage, "safe" plays are going to kill your scoring chances.

A few other thoughts. I thought the Rangers D was moving a lot better in the offensive zone and when the puck went back to them, they helped keep everyone moving instead of being stationary pylons like in previous years. This was noticeable on the one power play they had as well.

I like the team in general being more aggressive in puck pursuit and pressing guys into turnovers, but it's still a work in progress.

 

[Garv23]

Good Lord it's preseason kids...preseason. You know, the few practice games prior to the regular season that don't mean a thing?

Though I must say Kreider is a big mystery to me. Looks lost.

 

[NYR Viper]

Richards looked beyond terrible last night. He was back to his form from last year being too slow and soft on the puck. Nash tries to do too much by himself. Pass the puck and try to get it back. Kreider didn't look good either.

Asham was bad. I understand wanting toughness, but the guy can't keep up with the play. People claim Mashinter can't skate, there were a few times where Mashinter was clearly leaving Asham behind.

Hrivik and Fast were the Rangers best forwards. No surprise as they are actually relatively creative and don't handle the puck like a grenade.

Kristo had his ups and downs. He may need some more seasoning but he is close.

Bickel was God awful. Losing puck battles and getting beat to numerous pucks.

Falk looked better than Bickel. That is all.

Moore had an up and down game as well. He made a few ill-advised passes.

Staal looked great.

Boyle should be a wing.

 

[Levitate]

Good Lord it's preseason kids...preseason. You know, the few practice games prior to the regular season that don't mean a thing?

Though I must say Kreider is a big mystery to me. Looks lost.

He's looked lost ever since he spend half of the year in Hartford and got "coached' by the previous coaching staff

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Are you still doing Tortorella's bidding? Its getting kind of old. Your boy is gone. Deal with it.

Agree the Torts lovers and Kreider haters are getting old.

Honestly though, Kreider has shown me exactly zero this preseason. Hopefully it starts to click, his problem isn't a lack of size or skill, its all between the ears. He lacks that extra gear, or willingness to use it. He only skates fast when he wants to skate fast and he only hits when he wants to hit. Needs to assert himself and be more consistent.

Out of Fast, Hrivik, Kreider, Kristo, and Lindberg I'd be sending all of them but Hrivik to HFD if I had to make the decision now. Hopefully as these games go on we'll see a little more out of some of these guys.

 

[Dagoon44]

Bickel had worst game skating that I have ever seen in the nhl. He made jay caufield look like Kreider..
Kreider is a speed player and Richards And Nash play slow down hockey which isn't working.

Pyatt Powe Asham all need to go . The three are slow with no hands at all

Mashinter looked much more comfortable had two major chances and hits a lot

 

[Levitate]

Pyatt's probably not going anywhere but he shouldn't be near the top six. I'd rather the Rangers keep up Fast or Kristo or Hrvik to play in the top six over Pyatt...hell even in the top nine

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Are you still doing Tortorella's bidding? Its getting kind of old. Your boy is gone. Deal with it.

Ha, thats a really rich way of framing it.

The greater point is that, over the past year, Kreider has done a fine job of playing himself out of favor despite the coach.

 

[eco's bones]

Kreider seems to have a knack when he's in the other teams zone for not getting open--not finding the seams. Like he's just watching the play. Thinking too much. Not involved enough.

That said Richards did almost nothing. The Flames are one of the weaker teams in the league and that was hardly their best lineup. If Richards had been invisible all night that would have been better because what I noticed anyway was a guy struggling to make any kind of contribution. For a guy you expect to be a scoring center even if he didn't put up any points you'd expect he'd be able to have been involved in numerous scoring chances. Pretty much nothing. He looked like Drury in his last couple years and the thought occurred to me that even if somehow we miss the amnesty on this guy sooner or later he is going to get his ass bought out.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Remember the camp where Sanguinetti outplayed Sauer and Del Zotto?

 

[KreiMeARiver*]

Richards looked beyond terrible last night. He was back to his form from last year being too slow and soft on the puck. Nash tries to do too much by himself. Pass the puck and try to get it back. Kreider didn't look good either.

Asham was bad. I understand wanting toughness, but the guy can't keep up with the play. People claim Mashinter can't skate, there were a few times where Mashinter was clearly leaving Asham behind.

Hrivik and Fast were the Rangers best forwards. No surprise as they are actually relatively creative and don't handle the puck like a grenade.

Kristo had his ups and downs. He may need some more seasoning but he is close.

Bickel was God awful. Losing puck battles and getting beat to numerous pucks.

Falk looked better than Bickel. That is all.

Moore had an up and down game as well. He made a few ill-advised passes.

Staal looked great.

Boyle should be a wing.

This

You can already see what a gargantuan mistake it was to NOT buy Richards out.

Yes, it's only preseason, but wow.... not impressed.

All I know is that the days of thinking we can win a cup should be completely wiped from people's brains. That's just not happening.

 

[Rangers ftw]

Kreider needs to be put into a spot where he can succeed. He's not an all around player, he's not a defensively good player. He's got his speed, size and shot. Put him in a simple role where he's basically a shooter, he'll succeed. If he doesn't have the talent around him to allow his skill set to be brought to the forefront, he's most likely going to be drifting around the ice aimlessly.

And so far not an offensive enigma. What Kreider need to do is to realise that he'll have nothing for free and go back to basic, check hard, get his ass into the corner battling for the puck and show that he belongs in the line-up.

And it's time to stop blaming his line mates for his lack of effort.

 

[MSG*]

The Rangers basically had a week off from games and have only played three to date, fewer than any other team in the league. Reading anything into their progress to date is very much premature. Plus, not having Stepan, Hagelin and Callahan available is going to hurt. That's three of the top six. Ouch.