Proposal: NYR-BUF

[smoneil]

In the first 40 years of our existence the Sabres had either the 3rd or 4th best franchise record in NHL history.

And? Those Sabres teams accomplished that either by putting together a complete, multi-line team (the Drury/Briere years) or by riding an actual superstar (Hasek) and mixing in support players.

In the past ten years, despite having SEVERAL highly drafted and talented young players, Buffalo has finished bottom five in the league FIVE times, including three times finishing dead last. They look to be well on the way to another dead last finish. The last time the Rangers finished in the bottom five of the league, "bottom 5" meant "all the teams that didn't win the Stanley Cup that year." I'm not saying this to claim some glorious Rangers history of success (though I'm not shocked the regular Islanders-fan troll chose to read it that way). Quite the opposite--the Rangers have had whole eras of suckage, yet still didn't finish bottom 5. One player can't win a Cup for a bad team, but a top player, a true star player, can keep that team out of the basement. It's actually difficult to finish bottom five, and it is extremely difficult to finish dead last. The Sabres have finished (or are likely to finish) bottom 5 in four of Eichel's six seasons. That's abysmal.

McDavid only finished bottom 5 one time (his rookie season)--never finished dead last.
Matthews has not only never finished bottom 5, he's never known a season without the playoffs.
MacKinnon finished bottom 5 (dead last) once in 8 years, and it was an oddity of a season for Colorado. Several of those 8 seasons were playoff seasons.

If Eichel were as good as Sabres fans think he is, the Sabres wouldn't live in the bottom 5.

Of note--Columbus tended to finish bottom five with a fair amount of frequency as well, back when they had Nash. Building a 1 or 2 man team because that player is a "superstar" only works if the player plays like one. Nash couldn't do it. Eichel seems to be in a similar boat. Columbus turned their entire team culture around when they moved on from Nash. I was against the Rangers making that trade as well. I hope the Rangers don't trade for Eichel, and I think it is close to the point where you have to ask whether or not the culture change and assets from moving Eichel might be better for Buffalo than having him on the team.

 

[BowieSabresFan]

I backed up my words with the wins stat. The only one that matter. Eichel couldn't win with ROR. Eichel is a loser. Clearly the Buffalo school system didn't teach you how to read and you're just defensive because Buffalo sucks and one of the better players to put on a Sabres sweater isn't as good as you wish he was.

It's fine. I hope NYR doesn't trade for him. If they do, whatever, I'll still watch the games. Doesn't change the fact that Eichel is a loser and Buffalo sucks lol.

So you make a poorly structured argument, and then insult the education of the person that points it out to you.

 

[sabremike]

And? Those Sabres teams accomplished that either by putting together a complete, multi-line team (the Drury/Briere years) or by riding an actual superstar (Hasek) and mixing in support players.

In the past ten years, despite having SEVERAL highly drafted and talented young players, Buffalo has finished bottom five in the league FIVE times, including three times finishing dead last. They look to be well on the way to another dead last finish. The last time the Rangers finished in the bottom five of the league, "bottom 5" meant "all the teams that didn't win the Stanley Cup that year." I'm not saying this to claim some glorious Rangers history of success (though I'm not shocked the regular Islanders-fan troll chose to read it that way). Quite the opposite--the Rangers have had whole eras of suckage, yet still didn't finish bottom 5. One player can't win a Cup for a bad team, but a top player, a true star player, can keep that team out of the basement. It's actually difficult to finish bottom five, and it is extremely difficult to finish dead last. The Sabres have finished (or are likely to finish) bottom 5 in four of Eichel's six seasons. That's abysmal.

McDavid only finished bottom 5 one time (his rookie season)--never finished dead last.
Matthews has not only never finished bottom 5, he's never known a season without the playoffs.
MacKinnon finished bottom 5 (dead last) once in 8 years, and it was an oddity of a season for Colorado. Several of those 8 seasons were playoff seasons.

If Eichel were as good as Sabres fans think he is, the Sabres wouldn't live in the bottom 5.

Of note--Columbus tended to finish bottom five with a fair amount of frequency as well, back when they had Nash. Building a 1 or 2 man team because that player is a "superstar" only works if the player plays like one. Nash couldn't do it. Eichel seems to be in a similar boat. Columbus turned their entire team culture around when they moved on from Nash. I was against the Rangers making that trade as well. I hope the Rangers don't trade for Eichel, and I think it is close to the point where you have to ask whether or not the culture change and assets from moving Eichel might be better for Buffalo than having him on the team.

Jack had what was just about the single greatest non Hasek season in team history in 19-20 but all the other stupidity killed it. A sane person would look at the situation and go "Keep Jack and fix the stupidity". The absurd sports cliche spouters who are as intellectually stimulating as a coloring book would say "Jack isn't a winner, they need to get rid of him." I cannot stand lame sports cliches/narratives and "He's not a winner" is the absolute dirt worst.

 

[Djp]

You’re captured by ISIS, they offer you death or Tatonka. Your friend in front of you takes Tatonka and you watch while they horribly gang rape the guy. Which do you take?

fact....understand what metro actually means vs what you site.

 

[Djp]

his fa status has nothing to do with anything. If he requests a trade (not saying he 100% will), they will have to trade him.

where in the CBA does it state that?

 

[smoneil]

Jack had what was just about the single greatest non Hasek season in team history in 19-20 but all the other stupidity killed it. A sane person would look at the situation and go "Keep Jack and fix the stupidity". The absurd sports cliche spouters who are as intellectually stimulating as a coloring book would say "Jack isn't a winner, they need to get rid of him." I cannot stand lame sports cliches/narratives and "He's not a winner" is the absolute dirt worst.

Zibanejad had a better season in 19-20 than Eichel did, for less than half the price. Is Zibanejad worth the same kind of obscene returns that Buffalo fans are demanding?

Also, I think you might be selling Pat LaFontaine short a bit with that description. He had a couple of seasons on those mid-90s Sabres teams that were at the very least on par with Eichel last year. I'm still bummed out that his career was cut short by concussions.

More on point, even in what was "the single greatest non-Hasek season in team history," Eichel faded down the stretch. His production routinely seems to dip in the last ~third of the season. I'm assuming it's not that he's in bad shape. What else happens around that time? Oh yeah, that's generally around the time Buffalo is eliminated from the playoffs. In that "single greatest" season, Eichel put up 53 points in his first 38 games (and a +10). That would be a dominant pace. But then he faded, only putting up 25 points in his last 30 (and a -5). Even still, his play in the first half of the season was enough to put his team outside of the bottom 5.

In 16/17, the Sabres finished bottom five by a single point. They lost 5 of their last 6 games, with Eichel only scoring 1g/1a.

In 17/18, the Sabres finished dead last. They only won 5 of their final 18 games in the last two months of the season. In Eichel's final 19 games that season, he put up 15 points in his last 19 games, which includes a 5 point game (he went without a point in 11 of those 19 games down the stretch).

In 18/19 (another bottom 5 finish), Eichel put up 13 points in his last 17 games of the season, going without a point in 9 of those 17 games.

Again, though, I don't particularly care. Whether it's because of injuries almost every season, not playing as hard because the season is already lost, coaching or whatever. For the prices Buffalo fans are demanding, this had better be a "top of the league" player. And he isn't. He never has been. He had one top-ten scoring finish (last year, tied for tenth) and other than that, only one year where he placed higher than the mid-50s in scoring. Whether it's health, attitude or what, he doesn't put up the numbers to justify his contract/your perceived trade value, and he never really has. I do not want my team to give up a king's ransom for a player based on what might have been or a woulda/coulda/shoulda scenario. Peddle that noise out west.

And you can think what you want about "lame sports cliches" but team culture matters. I've coached for years, and a team on the same page with the same goal can go down the tubes due to even one bad apple. I took over a program a number of years back, and it took us two years to clear out the system from the years of toxicity that had been allowed to fester. We cut players with lousy attitudes. We cut the guys who ignored what we were saying. Within three years, the team went from the joke of the county to contending for titles, and if anything, the pure talent level was quite a bit higher in that first year.

I'm not even sure that Eichel is that far gone yet. Just that there's warning signs. I'd want to see how he does with a coach like a Torts or Trotz type. Real drill master team-first type. Half a season of that will tell you all you need to know about Eichel. If he pitches fits because he wants to run the show under yet another players' coach, then you've got to move him before that attitude spreads (or continues to spread) to Dahlin and Cozens.

 

[sandybridge]

23 is too old? damn

Compared to most of NHL, he's a baby.

Compared to Dahlin, yes, he's too old to anchor the next core. Keep in mind this would be the generation after Eichel.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Jack had what was just about the single greatest non Hasek season in team history in 19-20 but all the other stupidity killed it. A sane person would look at the situation and go "Keep Jack and fix the stupidity". The absurd sports cliche spouters who are as intellectually stimulating as a coloring book would say "Jack isn't a winner, they need to get rid of him." I cannot stand lame sports cliches/narratives and "He's not a winner" is the absolute dirt worst.

the absolute disrespect to Danny Briere

 

[cwede]

Jack had what was just about the single greatest non Hasek season in team history in 19-20 ...

fits your narrative but maybe disrespects LaFontaine, Mogilny, Perrault and other guys.
Not dissing Eichel, but many of us recall many of the scary guys who've played in Buff

Buffalo Sabres Season Leaders | Hockey-Reference.com
Points Per Game
1. Pat LaFontaine* • 1992-93 1.76
2. Alexander Mogilny • 1992-93 1.65
3. Pat LaFontaine* • 1991-92 1.63
4. Gilbert Perreault* • 1975-76 1.41
5. Gilbert Perreault* • 1974-75 1.41
6. Rick Martin • 1974-75 1.40
7. René Robert • 1974-75 1.35
8. Gilbert Perreault* • 1979-80 1.33
Pierre Turgeon • 1989-90 1.33
10. Dale Hawerchuk* • 1991-92 1.27

 

[smoneil]

fits your narrative but maybe disrespects LaFontaine, Mogilny, Perrault and other guys.
Not dissing Eichel, but many of us recall many of the scary guys who've played in Buff

Buffalo Sabres Season Leaders | Hockey-Reference.com
Points Per Game
1. Pat LaFontaine* • 1992-93 1.76
2. Alexander Mogilny • 1992-93 1.65
3. Pat LaFontaine* • 1991-92 1.63
4. Gilbert Perreault* • 1975-76 1.41
5. Gilbert Perreault* • 1974-75 1.41
6. Rick Martin • 1974-75 1.40
7. René Robert • 1974-75 1.35
8. Gilbert Perreault* • 1979-80 1.33
Pierre Turgeon • 1989-90 1.33
10. Dale Hawerchuk* • 1991-92 1.27

Pat LaFontaine had another monster year with them in 95/96, too. Well over a PPG. Danny Briere's final season in Buffalo would be up there as well.

 

[sabremike]

Zibanejad had a better season in 19-20 than Eichel did, for less than half the price. Is Zibanejad worth the same kind of obscene returns that Buffalo fans are demanding?

More seriously, even in what was "the single greatest non-Hasek season in team history," Eichel faded down the stretch. His production routinely seems to dip in the last ~third of the season. I'm assuming it's not that he's in bad shape. What else happens around that time? Oh yeah, that's generally around the time Buffalo is eliminated from the playoffs. In that "single greatest" season, Eichel put up 53 points in his first 38 games (and a +10). That would be a dominant pace. But then he faded, only putting up 25 points in his last 30 (and a -5). Even still, his play in the first half of the season was enough to put his team outside of the bottom 5.

In 16/17, the Sabres finished bottom five by a single point. They lost 5 of their last 6 games, with Eichel only scoring 1g/1a.

In 17/18, the Sabres finished dead last. They only won 5 of their final 18 games in the last two months of the season. In Eichel's final 19 games that season, he put up 15 points in his last 19 games, which includes a 5 point game (he went without a point in 11 of those 19 games down the stretch).

In 18/19 (another bottom 5 finish), Eichel put up 13 points in his last 17 games of the season, going without a point in 9 of those 17 games.

Again, though, I don't particularly care. Whether it's because of injuries almost every season, not playing as hard because the season is already lost, coaching or whatever. For the prices Buffalo fans are demanding, this had better be a "top of the league" player. And he isn't. He never has been. He had one top-ten scoring finish (last year, tied for tenth) and other than that, only one year where he placed higher than the mid-50s in scoring. Whether it's health, attitude or what, he doesn't put up the numbers to justify his contract/your perceived trade value, and he never really has. I do not want my team to give up a king's ransom for a player based on what might have been or a woulda/coulda/shoulda scenario. Peddle that noise out west.

And you can think what you want about "lame sports cliches" but team culture matters. I've coached for years, and a team on the same page with the same goal can go down the tubes due to even one bad apple. I took over a program a number of years back, and it took us two years to clear out the system from the years of toxicity that had been allowed to fester. We cut players with lousy attitudes. We cut the guys who ignored what we were saying. Within three years, the team went from the joke of the county to contending for titles, and if anything, the pure talent level was quite a bit higher in that first year.

OK everyone whose opinion do you think has more value and accuracy:

Guy who watches every Sabres game.

Or

Guy who looks up stats on a hockey database?

BTW remember a few years back when Ovie "Wasn't a winner"? Yeah.

And if you are going to spout rubbish about Jack's integrity and competitiveness do you realize that he played this season with both a broken clavicle and a broken rib and was close to a PPG player before it became too much? Do you realize how freaking painful a broken rib is (much less a broken clavicle)?

 

[sabremike]

fits your narrative but maybe disrespects LaFontaine, Mogilny, Perrault and other guys.
Not dissing Eichel, but many of us recall many of the scary guys who've played in Buff

Buffalo Sabres Season Leaders | Hockey-Reference.com
Points Per Game
1. Pat LaFontaine* • 1992-93 1.76
2. Alexander Mogilny • 1992-93 1.65
3. Pat LaFontaine* • 1991-92 1.63
4. Gilbert Perreault* • 1975-76 1.41
5. Gilbert Perreault* • 1974-75 1.41
6. Rick Martin • 1974-75 1.40
7. René Robert • 1974-75 1.35
8. Gilbert Perreault* • 1979-80 1.33
Pierre Turgeon • 1989-90 1.33
10. Dale Hawerchuk* • 1991-92 1.27

It's almost as if scoring points in 2021 is much harder than 20+ years ago and that using raw numbers to compare players from different eras is a really bad idea. Heck if you removed the goalie who needed a seeing eye dog from the roster and replace him with someone who was slightly below average the Sabres would've easily qualified for the expanded playoff in spite of all the stupidity.

 

[smoneil]

OK everyone whose opinion do you think has more value and accuracy:

Guy who watches every Sabres game.

Or

Guy who looks up stats on a hockey database?

BTW remember a few years back when Ovie "Wasn't a winner"? Yeah.

And if you are going to spout rubbish about Jack's integrity and competitiveness do you realize that he played this season with both a broken clavicle and a broken rib and was close to a PPG player before it became too much? Do you realize how freaking painful a broken rib is (much less a broken clavicle)?

Yeah, and what was the excuse last year in the final stretch? The years before? He's had broken ribs and a broken clavicle for five years? Also, Eichel thread drinking game: A Buffalo fan offers an excuse for why Jack doesn't produce. 1 Drink.

I'm saying I don't care what the reason is. Regardless of the reason, he doesn't produce the way a superstar of his perceived value should produce.

Again--his highest scoring finish has been a tie for 10th in the league, and he's never come close to that in any other year. His potential, how flashy his play might look or any other thing you want to point to ultimately doesn't matter. He doesn't put up the points through the full season to justify a huge paycheck or a massive trade package. You can't counter that because it's a factual statement.

 

[sabremike]

Yeah, and what was the excuse last year in the final stretch? The years before? He's had broken ribs and a broken clavicle for five years? Also, Eichel thread drinking game: A Buffalo fan offers an excuse for why Jack doesn't produce. 1 Drink.

I'm saying I don't care what the reason is. Regardless of the reason, he doesn't produce the way a superstar of his perceived value should produce.

Again--his highest scoring finish has been a tie for 10th in the league, and he's never come close to that in any other year. His potential, how flashy his play might look or any other thing you want to point to ultimately doesn't matter. He doesn't put up the points through the full season to justify a huge paycheck or a massive trade package. You can't counter that because it's a factual statement.

Then why are your goddamned fans in this f***ing thread wanting us to give him to you for whatever pile of shit you feel like giving in exchange if he's such a loser? You know who would say you have no clue what you are talking about? Every GM in the league.

 

[Dust]

Man Eichel is getting just flayed in these comments

I think the lack of team success is really unfairly shone on him. It's not his fault that they've never had solid defense or goaltending around him. Even players like Mcdavid, Crosby, Ovechkin, needed a solid foundation around them to hit the playoffs. Edmonton has been kind of a mess since Chiarelli took over, but we can't forget that they did get Vezina calibre goaltending in their season they made the 2nd round of the playoffs. As good as a Superstar player may be, they can't do it alone. Put Eichel on a team with a better supporting cast and I bet he's in the Hart conversation. He's really good.

 

[smoneil]

It's almost as if scoring points in 2021 is much harder than 20+ years ago and that using raw numbers to compare players from different eras is a really bad idea. Heck if you removed the goalie who needed a seeing eye dog from the roster and replace him with someone who was slightly below average the Sabres would've easily qualified for the expanded playoff in spite of all the stupidity.

God, enough with the excuses. This year's Rangers team has dealt with:

-Top prospects slow to develop
-Our #1 center getting, and then needing months to fully recover from, Covid
-Our best player sitting out for several weeks because of a political hit piece
-One of our best defensemen being effectively kicked off the team for immaturity
-Four of our six starting D are either rookies or 2nd year players
-Half the team rotating through the Covid protocols
-Our starting goalie being out for weeks for a groin injury
-Literally half our team being under the age of 22
-Playing in one of the toughest Covid-realigned divisions
-Having a coach who is such a moron that the best thing to happen to the team this season was when he and his staff all had to go into the Covid protocol.

And...we lost Jack Johnson for the season (lol).

Despite all of that and more that I'm probably forgetting, the team is still over 500 and clear of the bottom 5. Buffalo has enough players with talent that they should not suck to the level that they are.

 

[smoneil]

Then why are your goddamned fans in this f***ing thread wanting us to give him to you for whatever pile of shit you feel like giving in exchange if he's such a loser? You know who would say you have no clue what you are talking about? Every GM in the league.

Because I'm not the boss of them. We have an Eichel thread on our forum. A sizeable minority want to trade for Eichel if the price is right (probably the fans you are talking about in this thread). A handful want to give Buffalo whatever it takes (I assume they don't post in this thread because they are busy drinking and taking copious judgement-impairing drugs). And a clear majority want to stay the hell away from an Eichel trade. Most of them just don't post on the main boards because people are a little bit crazy here.

It makes sense that Buffalo wants to hold on to Eichel and hope that "first half of last season" Eichel becomes "all season" Eichel. You've invested a lot in the player and it costs you nothing. But for the Rangers to give up on the rebuild and trade a massive part of the prospect cupboard they've collected over the last few years, it can't be a roll of the dice. I'm not saying that Eichel is a loser. I'm saying I have concerns, and those concerns are big enough that I'd prefer my favorite team not go in on this one.

And every GM would have disagreed with me about not going for Nash as well, and that...literally worked out exactly like I said it would. I'm not saying I've never been wrong (f***, I still love Petr Prucha, haha), but I have a pretty good track record when it comes to evaluating which vets are good gets and which ones are buyer beware.

 

[sabremike]

God, enough with the excuses. This year's Rangers team has dealt with:

-Top prospects slow to develop
-Our #1 center getting, and then needing months to fully recover from, Covid
-Our best player sitting out for several weeks because of a political hit piece
-One of our best defensemen being effectively kicked off the team for immaturity
-Four of our six starting D are either rookies or 2nd year players
-Half the team rotating through the Covid protocols
-Our starting goalie being out for weeks for a groin injury
-Literally half our team being under the age of 22
-Playing in one of the toughest Covid-realigned divisions
-Having a coach who is such a moron that the best thing to happen to the team this season was when he and his staff all had to go into the Covid protocol.

And...we lost Jack Johnson for the season (lol).

Despite all of that and more that I'm probably forgetting, the team is still over 500 and clear of the bottom 5. Buffalo has enough players with talent that they should not suck to the level that they are.

Watch any Sabres game this season and you will see a roster of guys who look like they have no idea how to even do basic things that a high school player is generally capable of. When you see an entire roster of guys who look like that it points directly at one thing and you know exactly what it is. Not even Pierre McGuire was as utterly incompetent as an NHL coach as Kreuger. We hire Boudreau as coach and I'd bet money the team makes the playoffs.

 

[DJN21]

I honestly have less interest in debating Eichel's worth as I do simply saying the Ranger's prospects they are offering don't intrigue me at all compared to what other teams could but thats just personal preference. Like if Fox and Laf aren't on the table I'd shop elsewhere anyways.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

fact....understand what metro actually means vs what you site.

*cite

 

[BowieSabresFan]

Man Eichel is getting just flayed in these comments

I think the lack of team success is really unfairly shone on him. It's not his fault that they've never had solid defense or goaltending around him. Even players like Mcdavid, Crosby, Ovechkin, needed a solid foundation around them to hit the playoffs. Edmonton has been kind of a mess since Chiarelli took over, but we can't forget that they did get Vezina calibre goaltending in their season they made the 2nd round of the playoffs. As good as a Superstar player may be, they can't do it alone. Put Eichel on a team with a better supporting cast and I bet he's in the Hart conversation. He's really good.

It's mainly posters of a certain team's fan base. You would think the fans of one of the original six would have more knowledgeable fans, but they aren't in this thread (for the most part).

 

[Bluto]

So you make a poorly structured argument, and then insult the education of the person that points it out to you.

I made a great argument and then insulted the dunce who lacked the intelligence to read it.

I said eichel is an overpaid 80 point player who has an injury history and has never lead a team out of the bottom 10.
All of those statements are true and stats backed.
I backed it up using real world exanples and stats. But Buffalo fans have to have something to grasp at with their masochistic nature of cheering for such a subpar team in an even more subpar city.
Whether its the Sabres, Bills, weather, or weak local economy, Buffalo will always disappoint. Even Niagara falls is underwhelming at best.
Thank god for Teressa Belissimo though, without her and her invention of Buffalo wings, Buffalo would be completely unremarkable, desolate tundra.

Robin (eichel) is the perfect hero for Buffalo, a city that is the basis for mediocrity. NYR needs a Batman. Please keep him.

 

[DuneGoon84]

I honestly have less interest in debating Eichel's worth as I do simply saying the Ranger's prospects they are offering don't intrigue me at all compared to what other teams could but thats just personal preference. Like if Fox and Laf aren't on the table I'd shop elsewhere anyways.

Fox and Laf alone is wayyyyy too much. Good luck with that Eichel guy.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

Eichel and Dahlin are going to make places like this a goldmine

 

[BowieSabresFan]

I made a great argument and then insulted the dunce who lacked the intelligence to read it.

I said eichel is an overpaid 80 point player who has an injury history and has never lead a team out of the bottom 10.
All of those statements are true and stats backed.
I backed it up using real world exanples and stats. But Buffalo fans have to have something to grasp at with their masochistic nature of cheering for such a subpar team in an even more subpar city.
Whether its the Sabres, Bills, weather, or weak local economy, Buffalo will always disappoint. Even Niagara falls is underwhelming at best.
Thank god for Teressa Belissimo though, without her and her invention of Buffalo wings, Buffalo would be completely unremarkable, desolate tundra.

Robin (eichel) is the perfect hero for Buffalo, a city that is the basis for mediocrity. NYR needs a Batman. Please keep him.

The only thing you are doing is embarrassing your fan base, and making a great argument for putting you on my ignore list. So kudos for that I guess.