Rumor: Nylander like Matthews unextended. Nothing to see here.

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I don't get this post. Tavares being NYI #1 center doesn't mean anything to Toronto where he'd be #2 center. That contract was offered anyways.

Tavares was 16th in points in 2018 going into ufa. Nylander was 20th (with MORE goals and points) with still another rfa year. Pretty damn close.

I can totally see why (based on internal cap) Nylander would demand around 10-11 mil to stay. Makes total sense to me. Trev needs to somehow convince the players that Dubas's unprecedented dramatic overpayments no longer apply to internal cap structures. But I wouldn't blame Nylander for rejecting that. Based on Dubas's psychotic internal cap structures, Nylander IS worth 11 mil.

What does it say about our locker room when players are fighting over nickels and dimes to make sure they don't get less money than they think they should? Are we not fricken seeing the obvious stuff here? This is not a team...it's a collection of talent that is more interested in competing against each other than the other team...think about that.

Willy is going to hold steadfast when it comes the the Leafs because he rightfully feels like he was the only guy to sign a reasonable deal. I don't blame him for wanting to wait to see what stupidity of a contract AM is going to sign. I bet they have it all worked out already and are just waiting to see if they can sucker Willy in to signing first before the bombshell drops on how unfriendly a deal AM signs.

This team is too toxic in the locker room for it to win anything IMO....

 

[Dekes For Days]

Nope the only clown who thought like this was Dubas and ge is not here any more.
Mcdavid, Drasaitl wont be signing 4-5 year 15M deals despite being again significantly better than 34, Mackinnon never signed it despite me showing you he was better while you continue to pretend he is not

Every GM in the league thinks like that. That's just how contract negotiations work in the NHL.
Matthews will get a bigger contract than Mackinnon and Draisaitl because he is a better player than Mackinnon and Draisaitl.
McDavid will get a bigger contract than all of them because he is better than all of them.
And Nylander seems to be trending towards a contract that pays him in the 9s, which is perfectly fair.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

If the argument is that Mackinnon was elite every year since 2017-2018, then Matthews has been elite since at least the same year, without the bad years sprinkled before it.

Wasn't Colorado a tire fire for the first part of his NHL career? Are we not factoring that into why Nate did not have the early stats that you are constantly bringing up?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Wasn't Colorado a tire fire for the first part of his NHL career? Are we not factoring that into why Nate did not have the early stats that you are constantly bringing up?

We weren't really talking about the stats back then, but you can have good stats on bad teams. Mackinnon still had plenty of quality linemates. Part of the reason Colorado was bad was because Mackinnon was bad.

 

[hamzarocks]

Every GM in the league thinks like that. That's just how contract negotiations work in the NHL.
Matthews will get a bigger contract than Mackinnon and Draisaitl because he is a better player than Mackinnon and Draisaitl.
McDavid will get a bigger contract than all of them because he is better than all of them.
And Nylander seems to be trending towards a contract that pays him in the 9s, which is perfectly fair.

Nope he isnt a better player then either

He won't be rememered as a better player than either as well. Those two will have better legacy's simply b/c they are the better players

Matthews can be a leaf legend though the bars closer to his capabilities than being a routine top 5 player in the game

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

We weren't really talking about the stats back then, but you can have good stats on bad teams. Mackinnon still had plenty of quality linemates. Part of the reason Colorado was bad was because Mackinnon was bad.

Or could it be they traded away Ryan O'Reilly and Steve Duschene and he had very little to work with?

I'm sorry...but AM's peak goal scoring season is the only thing he can hang his hat on IMO. I would trade AM straight up for Nate or Leon in a heartbeat...defensive prowess aside.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Nope he isnt a better player then either
He won't be rememered as a better player than either as well.

He's better than both of them, and will be remembered long after the others are forgotten, as one of the best players in the cap era.

Or could it be they traded away Ryan O'Reilly and Steve Duschene and he had very little to work with?

His 3 most common linemates in his two worst years were Landeskog, Rantanen, and Duchene, and Barrie on the back-end. He had plenty to work with.

 

[Legion34]

Im comparing their past 6 years leading up to Matthews current deal

No one will ever use ELC years to discuss a 3rd contract. Pretending to do so is only happening b/c Mack outproduced Matthews heavily the past 6 years

Also I showed you Mack has significantly more points in 10 less games since 2017-2018.

Matthews will be measured against Mack, drai, Kuch and he is behind all of them since 2017-2018


The gap offensively is in Mack's favour as shown in a post above

Matthews is a 97 pt player since 2017-2018 vs Mackinnon a 110 pt player

You will pretend Matthews has been as productive as him when in realilty he hasnt

Hopefully Treliving isn't a clown like dubas was and give Matthews whatever he wants

Also again nice to ignore playoff production. Dekeing things that don't go in your favour and just focusing on the narrative which works for you.

What? You are using Matthews ELC years to decide on his contract

Matthews second contract started in 2019-2020. When he Scored 47 goals in 70 games. Missed the rocket by a goal when the season stopped. Then he was the second best player in thr league. Then the best player in the league.
Had a down year last year and still put up 40g and what 85 pts?

Why are you cherry picking?
Why would you compare ELC for Matthews not mackinnon.

Why would you compare macks last
Season. Which happened AFTER he signed?

Why not use percentage of cap?

This is odd

 

[hamzarocks]

What? You are using Matthews ELC years to decide on his contract

Matthews second contract started in 2019-2020. When he Scored 47 goals in 70 games. Missed the rocket by a goal when the season stopped. Then he was the second best player in thr league. Then the best player in the league.
Had a down year last year and still put up 40g and what 85 pts?

Why are you cherry picking?
Why would you compare ELC for Matthews not mackinnon.

Why would you compare macks last
Season. Which happened AFTER he signed?

Why not use percentage of cap?

This is odd

I already showed you 2019-2020 to now

116 pts per 82 games vs 103 pts per 82 games

Playoffs is a superstar vs a 2nd liner level difference for Mack

Matthews over the 4 years you want to look at is less consistent and productive than Mack in both the reg season and playoffs

Your looking at just goals to pretend Matthews is better.

85 pts in 74 games in this scoring environment isnt impressive what so ever.

We will be paying Matthews a similar cap % as Mackinnon if the term is same. If he takes 4 year deal he should get much less cap %

I think Mack got 15.27% (12.6M / 82.5M but correct me if I am wrong here)

Cap is what 87.7M next year

That works to 13.4M for 8 year term which is 200K over my 13M x 8 term. I wont haggle over 400K if he produces at an elite level next year( needs to bounce back if he intends to sign in season)

For every year he takes less than max take 1% of Mack's cap %

4 year =11.27% or 9.89M
5 year = 12.27% or 10.76M
6 year = 13.27% or 11.64M
7 year = 14.27% or 12.52M

He comes in those ranges that us a fair deal and not an issue.

If he gets 13-14M x 4 or 5 its a gross overpay for a player not worth near that cap% adjusted for term and all his comparables who are better than him (mack, drai) will be on better deals

 

[Legion34]

Mack 2017-2018 to this year

553 pts in 409 games or a 111 pt player per 82

Matthews 2017-2018 to this year

473 pts in 399 games or a 97 pt player per 82

If you look from 2018-2019 onwards

It becomes 112 pts per 82 for Mack vs 100 pts per 82 Matthews

2019-2020 to now

116 pts vs 103 pts

2020-2021 to now

118 pts vs 106

2021-2022 to now

120 pts vs 107

Mackinnon is right there with Matthews if you value goals very highly more then total production. If you value total production than Mack is ahead. Playoffs brings it even further.

Arguing Matthews is more valuable and worth really much more than 12.6M x 8 is just absurd

Again. Your comparison of ELC vs second contracts and including a year that didn’t exist when the contract was signed is silly.

IF you want to compare second contracts time for time. You would compare Mack’s first 4 years of his second contact to Matthews. You could also compare the last 4 years if you wanted.

1.) If you want to compare their whole careers up until signing their 3rd contracts. Matthews destroys him

2.) if you want to compare the first 4 years of their second contracts. Matthews destroys him

3.) if you want to compare the previous 4 years to the time of signing (your no ELC rule)

Matthews. G 269. Goals 188. Pts. 337
2 rockets. Pearson. Hart.

Mack: G: 264. Goals 128. Pts. 345.
Cup
Matthews had 60 more goals and 8 less points in 5 more games.

There is no precedent that a cup winner gets more than individual hardware. Maybe there should be. But there isn’t at this time. Hill doesn’t get more than sorokin because he won. Marchy isnt getting more than Mcdavid.

Their contract cases aren’t close

I already showed you 2019-2020 to now

116 pts per 82 games vs 103 pts per 82 games

Playoffs is a superstar vs a 2nd liner level difference for Mack

Matthews over the 4 yeara you want to look at is less consistent and productive than Mack in both the reg season and playoffs

Your looking at just goals to pretend Matthews is better.

85 pts in 74 games in this scoring environment isnt impressive what so ever.

We will be paying Matthews a similar cap % as Mackinnon if the term is same. If he takes 4 year deal he should get much less cap %

I think Mack got 15.09% (12.6M / 83.5M but correct me if I am wrong here)

Cap is what 87.5M next year

That works to 13.2M for 8 year term which is 200K over my 13M x 8 term. I wont haggle over 200K

For every year he takes less than max take 1% of Mack's cap %

4 year =11.09% or 9.7M
5 year = 12.09% or 10.58M
6 year = 13.09% or 11.45M
7 year = 14.09% or 12.32M

He comes in those ranges that us a fair deal and not an issue.

If he gets 13-14M x 4 or 5 its a gross overpay for a player not worth near that cap% adjusted for term and all his comparables who are better than him (mack, drai) will be on better deals

1.) You included a year that didnt exist when mack signed.
2.) cup winners don’t get paid more. There is zero evidence. Individual trophies get more.

Hill vs sorokin
Marchy isn’t getting Mcdavid money

 

[hamzarocks]

Again. Your comparison of ELC vs second contracts and including a year that didn’t exist when the contract was signed is silly.

IF you want to compare second contracts time for time. You would compare Mack’s first 4 years of his second contact to Matthews. You could also compare the last 4 years if you wanted.

1.) If you want to compare their whole careers up until signing their 3rd contracts. Matthews destroys him

2.) if you want to compare the first 4 years of their second contracts. Matthews destroys him

3.) if you want to compare the previous 4 years to the time of signing (your no ELC rule)

Matthews. G 269. Goals 188. Pts. 337
2 rockets. Pearson. Hart.

Mack: G: 264. Goals 128. Pts. 345.
Cup
Matthews had 60 more goals and 8 less points in 5 more games.

There is no precedent that a cup winner gets more than individual hardware. Maybe there should be. But there isn’t at this time. Hill doesn’t get more than sorokin because he won. Marchy isnt getting more than Mcdavid.

Their contract cases aren’t close

Matthews will be signing after Mackinnons 2024 season and we don't just pretend that season did not happen.

Matthews is looking like he will be signing in season so that will be another year to compare their deals. We will see how he does in his last 5 years vs Mack in his last 5 years

You only compare them the way you listed because you kniw it benefits Matthews lol. Its absurd to not take comparisons over the past 4/5/6 years since when Mackinnon broke out

Mackinnon 2013-2014 to 2016-2017 wasnt the player he is today. He took an insane step and maintained that level of play

We will have Matthews 8th season next year and will see if he can maintain that level of play or of 85 in 74 production is the new norm.

Purposely missing Matthews terrible 2022-2023 season is a strategy Matthews agent will use but any competent GM won't simply gloss over

Matthews needs a big bounce back year after being a borderline top 20 player this year. He would have been smart to sign his deal this summer otherwise another down year hurts his reputation around the league and further shows he is inconsistent

 

[hamzarocks]

Again. Your comparison of ELC vs second contracts and including a year that didn’t exist when the contract was signed is silly.

IF you want to compare second contracts time for time. You would compare Mack’s first 4 years of his second contact to Matthews. You could also compare the last 4 years if you wanted.

1.) If you want to compare their whole careers up until signing their 3rd contracts. Matthews destroys him

2.) if you want to compare the first 4 years of their second contracts. Matthews destroys him

3.) if you want to compare the previous 4 years to the time of signing (your no ELC rule)

Matthews. G 269. Goals 188. Pts. 337
2 rockets. Pearson. Hart.

Mack: G: 264. Goals 128. Pts. 345.
Cup
Matthews had 60 more goals and 8 less points in 5 more games.

There is no precedent that a cup winner gets more than individual hardware. Maybe there should be. But there isn’t at this time. Hill doesn’t get more than sorokin because he won. Marchy isnt getting more than Mcdavid.

Their contract cases aren’t close



1.) You included a year that didnt exist when mack signed.
2.) cup winners don’t get paid more. There is zero evidence. Individual trophies get more.

Hill vs sorokin
Marchy isn’t getting Mcdavid money

You get paid for being consistently elite. Which mackinnon has been since he broke out in 2018. He has not had a down year in that period

Its already been established Mackinnon has been a top 5 player ever year from 2017-2018 to 2021-2022 (lets omit 2023 for Mack in this case despite him being top 3 this year)

Matthews over 2019-2020 to 2022-2023 you want to look at only contract 2) has been a top 5 player 2 times in 2021 and 2022. He had the higher peak with 1st in hart/lindsay + rocket but Mack was 1nd in hart in 2018 and 2020 along with 3rd in 2021

Matthews needs a huge year (top 5 in hart type year) if he wants to keep ground otherwise he is a declining player whose past his peak with a proven record of being a playoff no show. At that pt your looking at 11M contract as fair value vs 13M on 8 year terms

Cup winners may not get more but a 119 pt playoff player vs a 72 pt player is a huge discrepancy with AM34 having 50 games of terrible production (large sample size for him being a playoff failure)

Any GM not looking to be bent over either brings this in the negotiations and sets a hard firm stance bot paying Matthews more cap % on same term then a better player in Mackinnon or then what Draisailt gets in a few years cap % wise for term.

You get a deal which works or you trade him for the best value available. Letting him bend you over ensures another half decade of failure and a lengthy rebuild after that

 

[Legion34]

Matthews will be signing after Mackinnons 2024 season and we don't just pretend that season did not happen.

Matthews is looking like he will be signing in season so that will be another year to compare their deals. We will see how he does in his last 5 years vs Mack in his last 5 years

You only compare them the way you listed because you kniw it benefits Matthews lol. Its absurd to not take comparisons over the past 4/5/6 years since when Mackinnon broke out

Mackinnon 2013-2014 to 2016-2017 wasnt the player he is today. He took an insane step and maintained that level of play

We will have Matthews 8th season next year and will see if he can maintain that level of play or of 85 in 74 production is the new norm.

Purposely missing Matthews terrible 2022-2023 season is a strategy Matthews agent will use but any competent GM won't simply gloss over

Matthews needs a big bounce back year after being a borderline top 20 player this year. He would have been smart to sign his deal this summer otherwise another down year hurts his reputation around the league and further shows he is inconsistent

1.) you are adding totals to mackinnon that did not exist.
And taking away years that did. That is insane. No one does that

2.) I did not take out Matthews 2022-2023 season. That is the last 4 years before he signed. I compared mackinnons last 4 seasons before he signed. They are not the same years.

3.) it is absurd to say no one based 3rd contracts on ELC years. And then base Matthews on ELC years.

4.) again show proof that playoff production is related
To contracts. There is none. Regular season success determines the market.

Maybe it should be different. But it’s not. The top platers salaries at every position are not based on cups.

Mcdavid. Pasta. Matthews.
Karlsson
Bob/price.

 

[hamzarocks]

1.) you are adding totals to mackinnon that did not exist.
And taking away years that did. That is insane. No one does that

2.) I did not take out Matthews 2022-2023 season. That is the last 4 years before he signed. I compared mackinnons last 4 seasons before he signed. They are not the same years.

3.) it is absurd to say no one based 3rd contracts on ELC years. And then base Matthews on ELC years.

4.) again show proof that playoff production is related
To contracts. There is none. Regular season success determines the market.

Maybe it should be different. But it’s not. The top platers salaries at every position are not based on cups.

Mcdavid. Pasta. Matthews.
Karlsson
Bob/price.

This is getting redundant

You don't want to look at the last 4 years of hockey but rather four years for matthews and 4 out of 5 for Mack despite Matthews signing after Mack had another big season, which shows he has elite consistency and is more consistent a top producer than Matthews.

We will see how Matthews and Mack perform next year. Your saying we can't compare 34 and 29 2023-2024 years and if Mack is better again than Matthews it has no impact on Matthews next contract despite being a worse player than Mack again.

I hope Matthews bounces back and justifies your position. We cant afford another year of him being mid

No point in continuing this discussion as you won't compare Mack and Matthews the way I feel they should and I won't the way you feel they should. Matthews has a big year and it doesnt matter.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Tavares, Isles #1C >> Nylander, Leafs #2RW. Yup Tavares was overpaid but you are comparing apples to oranges IMO.

If you want to look at just his Islander time, his best was 38 goals and 86 points.

So Nylander outperformed his best year, while playing on the second line instead of first, and playing over two minutes less per game.

Compared to JT, and considering the higher cap, Willy should be looking for $13-15M.

(I think he's worth $9-9.5, which shows how terrible the Tavares signing was.)

 

[ToneDog]

If you want to look at just his Islander time, his best was 38 goals and 86 points.

So Nylander outperformed his best year, while playing on the second line instead of first, and playing over two minutes less per game.

Compared to JT, and considering the higher cap, Willy should be looking for $13-15M.

(I think he's worth $9-f9.5, which shows how t errible the Tavares signing was.)

Tavares was their best player, leader, the face of that franchise. The Isles were also terrible many of those years. It is why he he was a covetted UFA.

 

[thewave]

Agreed, we are now in the entertainment rather than Sports industry. That allows Bettman & his gang to rig games, lotteries etc etc....all in an attempt to grow the game. The game is as rigged as soccer (I own 2 books on Soccer actually titled "Rigged" ) and all the other major sports. Its a real turn off...

With the betting. I'd say the NHL is operation is tantamount to racketeering.

 

[arso40]

If you want to look at just his Islander time, his best was 38 goals and 86 points.

So Nylander outperformed his best year, while playing on the second line instead of first, and playing over two minutes less per game.

Compared to JT, and considering the higher cap, Willy should be looking for $13-15M.

(I think he's worth $9-9.5, which shows how terrible the Tavares signing was.)

I strongly agree

 

[thewave]

Nope the only clown who thought like this was Dubas and ge is not here any more.

Mcdavid, Drasaitl wont be signing 4-5 year 15M deals despite being again significantly better than 34, Mackinnon never signed it despite me showing you he was better while you continue to pretend he is not

Matthews will need a huge bounce back year otherwise we will regret his contract in year 1.

You're correct. Your numbers are facts. I dont know how you keep arguing with the, the sky is orange guy. He is just going to cite sunsets and sunrises as proof from here on out.

He is conjecture man himself.

 

[mikeyz]

What does it say about our locker room when players are fighting over nickels and dimes to make sure they don't get less money than they think they should? Are we not fricken seeing the obvious stuff here? This is not a team...it's a collection of talent that is more interested in competing against each other than the other team...think about that.

Willy is going to hold steadfast when it comes the the Leafs because he rightfully feels like he was the only guy to sign a reasonable deal. I don't blame him for wanting to wait to see what stupidity of a contract AM is going to sign. I bet they have it all worked out already and are just waiting to see if they can sucker Willy in to signing first before the bombshell drops on how unfriendly a deal AM signs.

This team is too toxic in the locker room for it to win anything IMO....

BANG f***ING ON!!!

 

[TheGreenTBer]

What does it say about our locker room when players are fighting over nickels and dimes to make sure they don't get less money than they think they should? Are we not fricken seeing the obvious stuff here? This is not a team...it's a collection of talent that is more interested in competing against each other than the other team...think about that.

Willy is going to hold steadfast when it comes the the Leafs because he rightfully feels like he was the only guy to sign a reasonable deal. I don't blame him for wanting to wait to see what stupidity of a contract AM is going to sign. I bet they have it all worked out already and are just waiting to see if they can sucker Willy in to signing first before the bombshell drops on how unfriendly a deal AM signs.

This team is too toxic in the locker room for it to win anything IMO....

The pom-pom wavers are going to come at you but you're totally 100% correct.

 

[mikeyz]

The pom-pom wavers are going to come at you but you're totally 100% correct.

Ohhh 100%!!!! With @Dekes For Days Leading the pack. Lol.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I already showed you 2019-2020 to now

But that's also wrong. Not only does that include a career year for Mackinnon that was not a factor in his contract, but you're including developmental years for Matthews that you're skipping over for Mackinnon. On their 2nd contracts to time of signing their 3rd, Matthews is at a 1.25 P/GP and Mackinnon was at a 1.18 P/GP, even before getting into Mackinnon having pretty much every possible production advantage.

Broken down more, their 2nd contracts through time of signing:
Matthews: 2.85 P/60 at 5v5 (0.75 P/GP), 2.47 P1/60 at 5v5 (0.65 P1/GP), 6.43 P/60 on the PP, 4.87 P1/60 on the PP
Mackinnon: 2.50 P/60 at 5v5 (0.64 P/GP), 2.05 P1/60 at 5v5 (0.53 P1/GP), 6.42 P/60 on the PP, 4.37 P1/60 on the PP

For every year he takes less than max take 1% of Mack's cap %

Not only is that a ridiculously expensive price for a contract year in any situation, it's also backwards in this situation. You're not decreasing average cap hit by taking off the least valuable years of the contract.

 

[Racer88]

Trev needs to deal nylander and not follow the structure set by the man that blew 5 year contention window

100% agree

 

[Legion34]

This is getting redundant

You don't want to look at the last 4 years of hockey but rather four years for matthews and 4 out of 5 for Mack despite Matthews signing after Mack had another big season, which shows he has elite consistency and is more consistent a top producer than Matthews.

We will see how Matthews and Mack perform next year. Your saying we can't compare 34 and 29 2023-2024 years and if Mack is better again than Matthews it has no impact on Matthews next contract despite being a worse player than Mack again.

I hope Matthews bounces back and justifies your position. We cant afford another year of him being mid

No point in continuing this discussion as you won't compare Mack and Matthews the way I feel they should and I won't the way you feel they should. Matthews has a big year and it doesnt matter.

For the purposes of contract evaluation. It makes NO sense to include a year that did not exist when a contract was signed. This is very simple and indisputable. If you want to argue who has had the better career, who was better last year etc… that’s fine. But that’s not the question. The question is about Matthews next contract.

Heck if you want to argue about post contract earnings then marner is actually probably underpaid. He signed for less than 14% of the cap and is a high 90s, selke ranked first team all star at his position.

That is worth 13% of the cap. I don’t do that because it makes no sense.

If matthews signs for league max for 2 years but beats greetzkys records It will still be an over pay. Because there is no evidence at the time of the contract that he is worth that money.